Area Effect TK

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

Area Effect is a +1 Advantage, and you ought to get something useful for that. 20 STR TK AoE 2" Radius should be able to pick up 400 kg x 7 Hexes = 2800 kg, no more than 400 kg in each hex.

 

Suppose you have 20 STR TK without AoE, you can pick up a 400 kg object. Can you not pick up the object if it takes up more than one hex? Even if it's a solid object? Like a long wooden pole, that's 4 meters long (2"). It might weigh far less than 400 kg. Can you not pick it up with 20 STR TK that's not AoE? What if the pole was standing up vertically, could you pick it up then?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

Area Effect is a +1 Advantage, and you ought to get something useful for that. 20 STR TK AoE 2" Radius should be able to pick up 400 kg x 7 Hexes = 2800 kg, no more than 400 kg in each hex.

 

Suppose you have 20 STR TK without AoE, you can pick up a 400 kg object. Can you not pick up the object if it takes up more than one hex? Even if it's a solid object? Like a long wooden pole, that's 4 meters long (2"). It might weigh far less than 400 kg. Can you not pick it up with 20 STR TK that's not AoE? What if the pole was standing up vertically, could you pick it up then?

 

The problem is that, eventually, you can pick up more with an AoE TK than you can with a 'straight' TK, and it is hard to justify being able to pick up 2800kg of materials weighing 400kg each but not one 2800kg object (especially if the object is large). 7 x 20 STR is in fact about 33 STR, something like that.

 

Also, if you allow this, doubling the radius for +1/4 becomes a mighty fine way to boost your power cheaply.

 

I'm not agin the idea I'm just wary of it.

[archermoo]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

and note: a 1" radius area effect actually has a diameter of 3" because you get the center hex free.

 

No, you don't. I'm not sure how much more plain I can make it. Unless you are playing with house rules, an AoE 1" Radius power effects 1 hex. An AoE 2" Radius power effects 7 hexes. I've posted it twice previously, with the page ref, in this thread. Why is this one so difficult for people to grasp?

[archermoo]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

Area Effect is a +1 Advantage, and you ought to get something useful for that. 20 STR TK AoE 2" Radius should be able to pick up 400 kg x 7 Hexes = 2800 kg, no more than 400 kg in each hex.

 

Suppose you have 20 STR TK without AoE, you can pick up a 400 kg object. Can you not pick up the object if it takes up more than one hex? Even if it's a solid object? Like a long wooden pole, that's 4 meters long (2"). It might weigh far less than 400 kg. Can you not pick it up with 20 STR TK that's not AoE? What if the pole was standing up vertically, could you pick it up then?

 

You don't need AoE TK to pick up a single object that is larger than 1 hex. You need AoE TK to be able to exert force at multiple points at the same time. E.g. lifting multiple objects, lifting a single fragile object that wouldn't survive being lifted from a single point, grabbing several people at the same time, etc.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

The problem is that' date=' eventually, you can pick up more with an AoE TK than you can with a 'straight' TK, and it is hard to justify being able to pick up 2800kg of materials weighing 400kg each but not one 2800kg object (especially if the object is large). 7 x 20 STR is in fact about 33 STR, something like that.[/quote']

So what? You pay more for more utility. 20 STR TK 2" Radius is less useful than 33 STR TK. The latter can pick up any 2800 kg object. The former can do so only if its weight is evenly distributed over seven hexes (or more).

 

Also, if you allow this, doubling the radius for +1/4 becomes a mighty fine way to boost your power cheaply.

Only if you want to pick up very large objects with fairly low density. If you want to pick up a small object of much higher density, like say a life-size bronze statue of a man, or a character with 15 points of Density Increase, no amount of increased radius will help you there.

 

Now it could be possible to pick up such an object if you can distribute its weight, such as if a 2000 kg, one-hex object were on top of a 800 kg, seven-hex platform. The platform could possibly serve to distribute the weight over the whole seven-hex area, but you have to pick up the platform, with the object on top, not just the object.

[CTaylor]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

And, since if you buy a power with area effect it always uses the area effect, you'll be picking up a football field every time you use your power.

[Tech]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

And' date=' since if you buy a power with area effect it [i']always[/i] uses the area effect, you'll be picking up a football field every time you use your power.

 

You're correct: every time you use this power with AE, the AE will occur. However, from what I've seen, what you mentioned is almost always null & void for making it less useful in actual gameplay because when the player wants to use an AE, they will because they want to hit all those hexes. When they don't want to hit all those hexes, much like many of the recent herogames villains, a similar power which is not AE will be used.

[Tech]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

AoE 1 hex wasn't introduced to "fix" anything. It was introduced to give people the option to have a single hex area on powers that would normally get a considerably larger area. In fact you cannot use AoE 1 Hex on a power that would get just a 1" radius from AoE Radius. So it can only be used on Powers that would normally get a larger area.

 

Respectfully, I agree and disagree. For sake of this argument, I am using a 10 point power (although I can rarely recall using this on 10 point powers):

 

Area Effect One Hex targets 1 hex for +1/2 advantage

Area Effect Radius targets 1 hex for +1 advantage.

 

Yes, AE 1 Hex can be used for the power yet it doesn't alleviate the problem. (Going off on a tangent thought, AE 1 hex should be a sub-rule of AE Radius, much like Instant Change being absorbed into Transform.) The problem is that for that 10 pt power, both advantages do the same thing - you get 1 hex but for different costs. My opinion is that AE 1 hex was created to fix this, and then was given other options besides.

 

Now, I do not have 5ER so pardon me should 5ER say otherwise at some point to my thoughts being made.

 

AE 1 hex is very unclear on something and seems to be very wrong: for the -0 Accurate, it targets a single person and makes the power work against DCV3 (hex DCV or target DCV, it infers target DCV). "Targets may Dodge Accurate attacks; they do not have to use Dive For Cover to avoid them." If the target DCV is 3, it doesn't matter if a Dodge Manuever +3 DCV is used because it's Accurate making the single target DCV 3 yet you can dodge the Accurate attack. If it targets the hex DCV of 3, then Dive For Cover is appropriate, not dodge; if target DCV is used, then how will your Dodge help?

[archermoo]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

Respectfully, I agree and disagree. For sake of this argument, I am using a 10 point power (although I can rarely recall using this on 10 point powers):

 

Area Effect One Hex targets 1 hex for +1/2 advantage

Area Effect Radius targets 1 hex for +1 advantage.

 

Yes, AE 1 Hex can be used for the power yet it doesn't alleviate the problem. (Going off on a tangent thought, AE 1 hex should be a sub-rule of AE Radius, much like Instant Change being absorbed into Transform.) The problem is that for that 10 pt power, both advantages do the same thing - you get 1 hex but for different costs. My opinion is that AE 1 hex was created to fix this, and then was given other options besides.

 

Now, I do not have 5ER so pardon me should 5ER say otherwise at some point to my thoughts being made.

 

AE 1 hex is very unclear on something and seems to be very wrong: for the -0 Accurate, it targets a single person and makes the power work against DCV3 (hex DCV or target DCV, it infers target DCV). "Targets may Dodge Accurate attacks; they do not have to use Dive For Cover to avoid them." If the target DCV is 3, it doesn't matter if a Dodge Manuever +3 DCV is used because it's Accurate making the single target DCV 3 yet you can dodge the Accurate attack. If it targets the hex DCV of 3, then Dive For Cover is appropriate, not dodge; if target DCV is used, then how will your Dodge help?

 

I don't understand what problem you think that AoE 1 Hex was created to address. The only "problem" that I can see that it addresses is the desire to have an attack that is more than 10 AP that only effects a single hex. What other problem do you see it addressing?

 

As to the Accurate advantage for AoE 1 Hex, I don't see anything unclear about it, but I am also looking at the 5ER version which likely has clarified wording. Basically what it does is mean that for a single target in the hex you are effecting you can attack them as if they had a DCV of 3. If they decide to Dodge they can add the DCV bonus from their Dodge to that base 3 DCV. And in fact if you Dodge, you can also add and CSL's that can apply to your Dodge in as well. You do not need to Dive For Cover to avoid the attack like you do for most AoE attacks.

[CTaylor]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

from what I've seen, what you mentioned is almost always null & void for making it less useful in actual gameplay

 

It certainly makes a difference for telekinesis; that's one power where precision is sort of the point.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

You don't need AoE TK to pick up a single object that is larger than 1 hex. You need AoE TK to be able to exert force at multiple points at the same time. E.g. lifting multiple objects' date=' lifting a single fragile object that wouldn't survive being lifted from a single point, grabbing several people at the same time, etc.[/quote']

Exactly!

[Sean Waters]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

I don't understand what problem you think that AoE 1 Hex was created to address. The only "problem" that I can see that it addresses is the desire to have an attack that is more than 10 AP that only effects a single hex. What other problem do you see it addressing?

 

As to the Accurate advantage for AoE 1 Hex, I don't see anything unclear about it, but I am also looking at the 5ER version which likely has clarified wording. Basically what it does is mean that for a single target in the hex you are effecting you can attack them as if they had a DCV of 3. If they decide to Dodge they can add the DCV bonus from their Dodge to that base 3 DCV. And in fact if you Dodge, you can also add and CSL's that can apply to your Dodge in as well. You do not need to Dive For Cover to avoid the attack like you do for most AoE attacks.

 

 

That is certainly theway I play it.

 

One thing to think on with the ome hex/radius thing is that, for very small active point powers, a +1 advantage for radius does not give an enormous amount of utility, so for small powers the one hex alternative cound be seen a s a cost break. However, such small powers are, IME, quite rare enough to ensure that there is almost always a real difference between one hex and radius.

 

This has never been something that bothered me and, as almost anyone can confirm almost everything bothers me at one time or another

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

You don't need AoE TK to pick up a single object that is larger than 1 hex. You need AoE TK to be able to exert force at multiple points at the same time. E.g. lifting multiple objects' date='[b'] lifting a single fragile object that wouldn't survive being lifted from a single point[/b], grabbing several people at the same time, etc.

 

I don't think the bolded section applies since TK appears to have this covered by default. Why else would there be a TK-Only Limitation called Affects Whole Object?

[archermoo]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

I don't think the bolded section applies since TK appears to have this covered by default. Why else would there be a TK-Only Limitation called Affects Whole Object?

 

Well, it is a limitation that means that when you effect an object you effect all of it at the same time. Which indicates to me that a) normally that isn't the case with TK, and that the rules consider that to generally be a disadvantage. Which makes sense, as it restricts how useful TK is as a straight attack power.

[Paragon]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

I've never seen the problem the official ruling is designed to address here that isn't just as much a problem with any other area issue; yes, you can have some bizarre artifacts when you have more than a one-hex object (because in practice you're getting no benefit from the extra hexes of lift) but that's just as true with damage; you're only getting one damage increment there even though the damage could hurt each target in the seperate hexes for the same value. The fact that you get to do seven seperate STR 20 TK effects in a 3" area doesn't seem any more prone to abuse or problematic than the fact you get to do seven seperate 1d6+1 killing attacks in those hexes.

 

In other words, its a rules exception that seems to serve no useful purpose that I can see, and makes it harder to produce some effects than seems justified on any balance grounds.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

I don't think the bolded section applies since TK appears to have this covered by default. Why else would there be a TK-Only Limitation called Affects Whole Object?

 

Check out the comic book exception to the principle of levers. Physics, schmisics

[Sean Waters]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

...............

 

In other words, its a rules exception that seems to serve no useful purpose that I can see, and makes it harder to produce some effects than seems justified on any balance grounds.

 

Well....TECHNICALLY the 'STR per hex' thing is not a rule anywhere, and AoEs affect every object in an area, so the rule, if this would be an exception, would be that AoE TK should be able to affect every object in an AoE.

 

That could well cause some problems: a volume of sand is arguably lots of very small objects, and a cubic metre of fine sand weights 1200kg or thereabouts (http://www.simetric.co.uk/si_materials.htm).

 

Therefore a 2" AoE is about a 3m radius and, if filled with fine sand, would weigh about 135 tons.

 

If we apply 'principles' then you could lift a grain of sand with 0 STR TK, but let us say we take 10 STR TK, so that we get our 2" radius. So, principle says that this 30 point, 10 STR AoE TK should be able to hoist 135 tons?

 

Cool.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

I don't think the bolded section applies since TK appears to have this covered by default. Why else would there be a TK-Only Limitation called Affects Whole Object?

Because it's a limitation on what *you* can do with your TK: you can't crush, squeeze, bend, break, twist, fold, spindle, or mutilate the object. You can't telekinetically pick up a gun and pull its trigger at the same time, since that would be holding one part of the object still while moving another part of the object.

 

However, the "affects whole object" lim does not prevent other outside forces from working on the object. The object could still bend, break, or collapse under its own weight. If a gun is held in place by some other force, like being clamped in a vise, you could then pull the trigger even with "Affects Whole Object". Likewise, you could pick up a rope buy one end and wave it around. The rope would wiggle and move like a normal rope would due to the wind, gravity, etc., but you couldn't grab the rope by two or more points and tie it in a knot.

 

Of course, sometimes comic-book physics gets around this, which is how Superman can pick up the Statue of Liberty by its hand without the huge metal structure buckling.

[CTaylor]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

Telekinesis by definition ignores grabbing rules, it's not latching on to a section (that's stretching without a connection) you're using a power to move the entire object. TK in every single instance of every genre and source material I'm aware of allows you to move fragile or unwieldy objects without physics or concern for damage to it by lifting. Sometimes it's used specifically like that in the source material (there's an issue of the Fantastic Four that I have in mind here).

 

If a gun is held in place by some other force, like being clamped in a vise, you could then pull the trigger even with "Affects Whole Object"

 

I don't believe this is true: no matter what the status of the object, you can only affect the entire thing. Being in a vice or in some strong guy's hand doesn't change that. "only the whole" actually does mean "cannot affect only one part." He's right; the limitation means that telekinesis works on the entire object, but can manipulate parts normally.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

The difference between Normal TK and Affects Whole Object TK is variability:

 

Normal TK - can lift a person up in the air. can grab a limb or two and restrain them, can grab one are and cause it to wave good bye.

 

Affects Whole Object TK - can only grab and/or lift entire person.

 

Normal TK - can pull the trigger on a gun.

 

Affects Whole Object TK - can only grab and move the entire gun around.

 

Also, keep in mind Affects Whole Object is nominally to simulate using TK and Artificial Gravity: You don't pull separate parts in different directions, they all have to go in the same direction.

[Paragon]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

Well....TECHNICALLY the 'STR per hex' thing is not a rule anywhere, and AoEs affect every object in an area, so the rule, if this would be an exception, would be that AoE TK should be able to affect every object in an AoE.

 

That could well cause some problems: a volume of sand is arguably lots of very small objects, and a cubic metre of fine sand weights 1200kg or thereabouts (http://www.simetric.co.uk/si_materials.htm).

 

Therefore a 2" AoE is about a 3m radius and, if filled with fine sand, would weigh about 135 tons.

 

If we apply 'principles' then you could lift a grain of sand with 0 STR TK, but let us say we take 10 STR TK, so that we get our 2" radius. So, principle says that this 30 point, 10 STR AoE TK should be able to hoist 135 tons?

 

Cool.

 

And again, if you have a lot of tiny objects in an area, you get to damage them with an area damage effect numerous times. I'm still not seeing why one is okay and the other isn't.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

And again' date=' if you have a lot of tiny objects in an area, you get to damage them with an area damage effect numerous times. I'm still not seeing why one is okay and the other isn't.[/quote']

 

Well it is called game balance. In the same way that you would not get to apply damage to every grain of sand, you'd treat the sand as a single unit, for damage purposes, you don't get to lift every grain of sand individually, because otherwise the result is silly and unbalanced.

 

Of course if there are two barrels in the AoE you would certainly get to apply the damage of an AoE attack to both individulally - the point is you have to be arbitrary at some level.

 

So why, you ask, should you not get to apply TK strength to each barrel seperately?

 

Good question, but the same principle applies - game balance. So, why is it that the game balance dictates that there is a difference between damage and lifting strength?

 

Perhaps there is not. The damage applies to everything equally, but the total damage that is done - the maximum effect - is not exceeded. If you apply strength to everything in the AoE for lifting purposes then the maximum effect can be exceeded, and possibly by quite a lot.

 

AoE does not increase maximum effeect, therefore the principle in fact at work is not AoE makes an effect apply to everything in the area, it is this: AoE applies an effect to everything in the area so long as that does not cause the effect to exceed the maximum it could without the AoE advantage.

 

Work it that way and it becomes obvious why there is an apparent difference between how we treat damaging attacks and how we treat the lifting strength of TK.

[Paragon]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

Well it is called game balance. In the same way that you would not get to apply damage to every grain of sand, you'd treat the sand as a single unit, for damage purposes, you don't get to lift every grain of sand individually, because otherwise the result is silly and unbalanced.

 

 

Sure. That's my point; any problem that applies to TK applies equally to damage, and if you're not going to allow people to sidestep it with damage, there's no reason to do it with TK; but there's no reason to treat TK more _harshly_ than damage, just because it'll allow you to pick up a large number of one hex objects cheaply, same as area damage allows you to damage a large number of one hex objects cheaply. I think the only reason the issue exists is people have cognitive issues with the distinction with TK that for some reason they don't with damage; the same people who'd never expect an area damage effect to damage a three hex area object three times will somehow get wierd that the area TK doesn't treat all three hexes as seperate lift.

 

Good question, but the same principle applies - game balance. So, why is it that the game balance dictates that there is a difference between damage and lifting strength?

 

Perhaps there is not. The damage applies to everything equally, but the total damage that is done - the maximum effect - is not exceeded. If you apply strength to everything in the AoE for lifting purposes then the maximum effect can be exceeded, and possibly by quite a lot.

 

Not at all. If you apply 1d6 killing to three objects, you'd done 3d6 killing; it isn't as efficient as 3d6, but neither is lifting 3 100 kg. objects as efficient as lifting 300 kg. As long as you can't lift one 300 kg. object with it _no matter the object's size_ the situations are exactly parallel.

[Basil]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

AoE TK gets expensive quickly.

 

Let us look at this. 20 STR Radius AoE TK costs 60 points. 60 points of TK (without AoE) allows you to lift with 40 STR.

 

So, 20 STR = 400kg, 40 STR = 6400kg, or 16 times as much. (7 hexes, and at STR/hex = 2800kg)

 

If you boost the strength to 30 for the AoE, then that is point equivalent to a 60 STR TK without AoE.

 

So, 30 STR = 1600kg, 60 STR = 100 tons, or 64 times as much. (19 hexes and at STR/HEX = just over 30 tons)

 

20 STR TK is 30 points. AOE Radius is +1, but figuring the "radius" is done without using the advantage. So, 30 points divided by 1"/10 points is a "radius" of 3, which is 19 hexes. 19 * 400kg is 7.6Mg, vs the 6.4Mg for a STR of 40

 

30 STR TK is 45 points. 45 points divided by 1"/10 points is a "radius" of 4.5, rounded to 5, which is 61 hexes. 61 * 1.6Mg is 97.6Mg, vs the 100Mg for a STR of 60.

 

Thus, whether "STR/hex" is results in more total lift than the same number of Active Points in "straight" TK, or not, depends on the STR. The break point comes between 25 and 28 STR.

[Basil]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

The terminology isn't so much flawed as the application of it to a hex map is.

 

Indeed.

 

On a hexagonally-tessellated field where the hexagons are 2 meters between opposite sides, the radius of an inscribed circle (hereafter "inscribed radius") is 1 meter, and the radius of a circumscribed circle (hereafter "circumscribed radius") is ~1.155 meters.

 

A 7-hexagon "clump" has an inscribed radius of 2.309 m, and a circumscribed radius of 3.055 m.

 

A 19-hexagon "clump" has an inscribed radius of 4.163 m, and a circumscribed radius of 5.033 m.

 

A 37-hexagon "clump" has an inscribed radius of 5.774 m, and a circumscribed radius of 7.024 m.

 

A 61-hexagon "clump" has an inscribed radius of 7.572 m, and a circumscribed radius of 9.018 m.

 

And so on.

 

NB: I have corrected the values for inscribed radii. The earlier numbers came from a rather silly mistake.

 

The problem is that none of these is an integer multiple of 2 m. Indeed, the circumscribed radii are approximately "mumble and a half" times 2 m. Since the circumscribed radius is always more than "mumble and a half", when rounding to the nearest multiple of 2 m, we should round up. Which is how it is done in the rule book. Makes as much sense as possible, given an insistence on using a hexagonal tessellation.

 

The obvious solution is to stop using hexagonally-tessellated graph paper, totally. Then radii mean exactly what they say. As well, the whole "how much is lifted" discussion is rendered moot, as you stop thinking of an AoE as being a number of pieces; it is a continuum of points, making up an area, and not an accumulation of large, discrete chunks.