Area Effect TK

[SteveZilla]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

My rule is that you can pick up any number of items weighing each no more than the TK's maximum strength which can fit in that area.

 

 

Wow, a 1 STR TK w/ Megascaled Area could pick up a whole beach of sand!

 

How do these rules interact with Affects Porous?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

20 STR TK is 30 points. AOE Radius is +1, but figuring the "radius" is done without using the advantage. So, 30 points divided by 1"/10 points is a "radius" of 3, which is 19 hexes. 19 * 400kg is 7.6Mg, vs the 6.4Mg for a STR of 40

 

30 STR TK is 45 points. 45 points divided by 1"/10 points is a "radius" of 4.5, rounded to 5, which is 61 hexes. 61 * 1.6Mg is 97.6Mg, vs the 100Mg for a STR of 60.

 

Thus, whether "STR/hex" is results in more total lift than the same number of Active Points in "straight" TK, or not, depends on the STR. The break point comes between 25 and 28 STR.

 

Quite right: I was making the point without looking at the details: it soon becomes apparent that, at STR/hex, total lift is greater with an AoE, but the whole STR/hex thing is an artificial construct - in fact AoE applies to every 'target' in the area, even if there are more than one/hex, hence my rather extreme example with sand (even more extreme if I'd calculated the AoE correctly).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

Sure. That's my point; any problem that applies to TK applies equally to damage, and if you're not going to allow people to sidestep it with damage, there's no reason to do it with TK; but there's no reason to treat TK more _harshly_ than damage, just because it'll allow you to pick up a large number of one hex objects cheaply, same as area damage allows you to damage a large number of one hex objects cheaply. I think the only reason the issue exists is people have cognitive issues with the distinction with TK that for some reason they don't with damage; the same people who'd never expect an area damage effect to damage a three hex area object three times will somehow get wierd that the area TK doesn't treat all three hexes as seperate lift.

 

...................

 

Not at all. If you apply 1d6 killing to three objects, you'd done 3d6 killing; it isn't as efficient as 3d6, but neither is lifting 3 100 kg. objects as efficient as lifting 300 kg. As long as you can't lift one 300 kg. object with it _no matter the object's size_ the situations are exactly parallel.

 

There is a very real difference, in Hero: damage aplies to defences every time it is used, whereas there is no 'defence' to strength.

 

Think of it this way:

 

A 1d6 AoE KA would apply 1d6 KA to each of (say) 8 barrels, each of which has a def of 4 and a Body of 3. About 1/3 of them are damage, none destroyed. That is very different from applying 8d6KA -certainly all of them would be destroyed. The point is the maximum damage is still 1d6, however you slice it.

 

STR works differently. It has no defence as such, so if each of the barrels weighed 200kg and fitted in the AoE, and you could lift them all, you would actually be applying 30 STR to lift 1600kg i.e. you would be exceeding the maximum of the unadvantaged power. The problem is even more obvious if there is a single object that fills the AoE: what STR do you apply to that?

 

The interaction of damage and defences means that an AoE attack can apply the maximum effect to each object and not exceed the 'power' of the unadvantaged KA, whereas, because STR does not have a defence as such, applying the maximum lift to each object substantially exceeds the maximum.

 

In addition there is the question of logic: how would you explain TK working to be able to lift 8x200kg but not being able to lift 1600kg?

 

Finally the STR/hex thing is entirely artificial - nowhere does it say an AoE applies effects per hex - it is per object - and that means you can lift a lot more dense objects than light objects, if you apply STR/object - which is just plain silly.

 

In short the rule is not an exception, it is an application of the principles of the game.

 

IMO.

[schir1964]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

There is a very real difference' date=' in Hero: damage applies to defenses every time it is used, whereas there is no 'defense' to strength.[/quote']

Well, to be consistent in this analogy, the Defense for Lift is Weight, which every object being affected has.

 

And to carry this further, any additional Lift left over after Weight has been subtracted, would be reversed figured to give you how much STR could be applied to damage the lifted object.

 

But this doesn't mitigate the usefulness of "Grab/Lift" which is way undervalued (in my opinion) and thus the crux of the problem with applying Area Of Effect to Telekinesis.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Sean Waters]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

Well, to be consistent in this analogy, the Defense for Lift is Weight, which every object being affected has.

 

And to carry this further, any additional Lift left over after Weight has been subtracted, would be reversed figured to give you how much STR could be applied to damage the lifted object.

 

But this doesn't mitigate the usefulness of "Grab/Lift" which is way undervalued (in my opinion) and thus the crux of the problem with applying Area Of Effect to Telekinesis.

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

I'd considered weight as a 'defence' but it still does not end up directly analagous because (thinking of it that way) you would not be limited in the number of objects that you could lift where TK STR was greater than weight, the result of which is likely to be a net effect greater than the base effect.

 

Damaging attacks do work that way - the 'defence' works differentlyin practice because it is not all or nothing.

 

Of course looked at another way, allowing STR/object would make little difference: if you could pick up 1000x800kg objects and throw them at an opponent it would do 1000x5d6 damage, which is:

a) going to be boring to roll, and

probably won't be doing a great deal of damage to many super-types, given their defences

 

Then you have to look at the cynical player who would, perhaps, pick up 1000agents, raise them to a height of a couple of humdred metres (enough for terminal velocity) and let go - looked at that way it is a very nasty ability and horribly overpowered.

 

Ultimately the game errs on the side of caution.

 

Here's a question for Herodom though:

 

If you build an autofire STR 20 TK and use it to target multiple objects, would each 'shot' be able to lift 400kg (the max) and so the entire power exceed a 400kg lift?

[Paragon]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

There is a very real difference, in Hero: damage aplies to defences every time it is used, whereas there is no 'defence' to strength.

 

 

Sure there is. Mass. If you have a giant area TK but its only 20 STR, you're still not going to pick up anything that requires more than that, just because its area; you'll just be picking up more things that can be picked up with that. That doesn't seem meaningfully different to me than damaging a bunch of things that have low defenses in the same area.

 

Think of it this way:

 

A 1d6 AoE KA would apply 1d6 KA to each of (say) 8 barrels, each of which has a def of 4 and a Body of 3. About 1/3 of them are damage, none destroyed. That is very different from applying 8d6KA -certainly all of them would be destroyed. The point is the maximum damage is still 1d6, however you slice it.

 

 

And if the area was filled with a lot of glass bottles you wanted to break, it'd destroy them fine. Again, the situations seem quite parallel (barring Christopher Mullin's evaluation of the benefit of lift, which I disagree with the premise of, and thus the conclusion).

 

TR works differently. It has no defence as such, so if each of the barrels weighed 200kg and fitted in the AoE, and you could lift them all, you would actually be applying 30 STR to lift 1600kg i.e. you would be exceeding the maximum of the unadvantaged power. The problem is even more obvious if there is a single object that fills the AoE: what STR do you apply to that?

 

 

And if the area had a large number of low defense and Body objects, the damage would break them all. As to your question, the answer is "20 Strength", same as you'd only apply 1d6; if size of object doesn't change the damage it takes when it fills more than one hex, then there's no reason it should change the lift that gets applied.

 

The interaction of damage and defences means that an AoE attack can apply the maximum effect to each object and not exceed the 'power' of the unadvantaged KA, whereas, because STR does not have a defence as such, applying the maximum lift to each object substantially exceeds the maximum.

 

And I simply disagree because to me the weight _is_ the defense; its what prevents you from lifting it up, and that's the primary function of TK.

 

In addition there is the question of logic: how would you explain TK working to be able to lift 8x200kg but not being able to lift 1600kg?

 

The same way I do on the damage in the same area which I consider no more or less of a problem; if the logic bothers you with TK, I think it should do just the same with damage (at least on all exposed faces of a multi-hex object).

 

 

Finally the STR/hex thing is entirely artificial - nowhere does it say an AoE applies effects per hex - it is per object - and that means you can lift a lot more dense objects than light objects, if you apply STR/object - which is just plain silly.

 

I don't find it a bit more than the fact you'll do the same damage to a house with a single hex area effect than one that effects all its faces at once.

 

In short the rule is not an exception, it is an application of the principles of the game.

 

IMO.

 

And I completely disagree. Its a case of this bothering people in this area where it doesn't bother them anywhere else, but that doesn't make it more consistent; its just a case that one bothers people and the other doesn't.

[Paragon]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

I'd considered weight as a 'defence' but it still does not end up directly analagous because (thinking of it that way) you would not be limited in the number of objects that you could lift where TK STR was greater than weight, the result of which is likely to be a net effect greater than the base effect.

 

Damaging attacks do work that way - the 'defence' works differentlyin practice because it is not all or nothing.

 

 

There's a clear exception to that; any area Body Doing NND; yet there's no special case applied there.

[schir1964]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

...barring Christopher Mullin's evaluation of the benefit of lift' date=' which I disagree with the premise of, and thus the conclusion...[/quote']

I'm not saying you are wrong or anything, but I am curious as to what value would you assign to Lift?

 

Telekinesis Component Breakdown:

1) Damage

2) Manipulation (Grab/Shove/Pull)

3) Lift (Carrying Capacity)

 

What values would assign to each of these components that make up Telekinesis?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Paragon]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

I'm not saying you are wrong or anything, but I am curious as to what value would you assign to Lift?

 

Telekinesis Component Breakdown:

1) Damage

2) Manipulation (Grab/Shove/Pull)

3) Lift (Carrying Capacity)

 

What values would assign to each of these components that make up Telekinesis?

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

The problem is (and this is a general problem in Hero; even though I've used it for years, I don't think a one-cost-fits-all system really works right in a multigenre game), I have to ask the question "In what genre/setting?" I'd give you a much different answer in Champions than in Fantasy Hero, and yet a third answer in a modern low-paranormal game.

 

I tend to consider the damage component of TK pretty trivial in a game where multipowers exist (since in the majority of cases that's what people are going to do to do damage anyway at a distance), so only the ability to manipulate and lift are really relevant; the manipulation ability is essentially a fixed cost benefit at the bottom and is hard to assess. The lift ability is a variable benefit, but I don't think is at all overbalanced in Champions as its currently priced; if anything, in practice, its too expensive.

 

There are some issues in using TK at its current cost in other sorts of genres, but in practice, I don't think the area question impacts those, since for the most part the more problematic uses require more buy in than you're going to see with an area effect in those genres. A single target version of greater strength is much more problematic.

[Maur]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

Easy fix for that Paragon, use cost multipliers in other genres. The group I'm in does that for magic and such where if you take certain amount of lims, you can put on a .33 mult for the ability.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

Paragon I do understand your PoV, honest. If it were to be just a matter of how much TK could lift I would nt particularly have any problem with applying STR/target, even if that meant lifting an awful lot, but it is not as simple as that - as with the agent example, you can lift a lot of objects and use a game convention (damage due to falling) to cause damage, and a lot of it.

 

I still reckon you cannot justify your position with an in-hgame example: what sfx are you going to be applying to an AoE TK that justifies you being able to pick up several tons in weight of small objects, but only a few hundred KG of large objects?

 

Also can I just ask again aboutt eh autofire thing, and what people think on that?

[schir1964]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

I still reckon you cannot justify your position with an in-hgame example: what sfx are you going to be applying to an AoE TK that justifies you being able to pick up several tons in weight of small objects' date=' but only a few hundred KG of large objects?[/quote']

It is the most direct, easiest, and to a certain extent, the correct way to simulate true Extra Limbs SFX. Which, ironically, you can't do with just the mechanic Extra Limbs. You know how I feel about the implementation of that mechanic. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Paragon]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

Easy fix for that Paragon' date=' use cost multipliers in other genres. The group I'm in does that for magic and such where if you take certain amount of lims, you can put on a .33 mult for the ability.[/quote']

 

Sure. I'm just noting that there's some intrinsic problems in a multi-genre system talking about what cost is "right"; that tends to be most noticeable in Hero when you're talking to people who use it primarily for superheroic scale games as compared to those who use it for heroic scale. The design is for the most part biased toward the former (but there are some exceptions, such as some of the Immunities in Life Support which really only make sense in cost when used in heroic scale, and aren't really consistent in value with some other Life Support components per cost).

 

So its entirely possible to say "yeah that cost is right" or "way off" and have someone look at you like a lunatic, because their field experience gives them a very different sense of it because of their prefered genre.

[Paragon]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

Paragon I do understand your PoV, honest. If it were to be just a matter of how much TK could lift I would nt particularly have any problem with applying STR/target, even if that meant lifting an awful lot, but it is not as simple as that - as with the agent example, you can lift a lot of objects and use a game convention (damage due to falling) to cause damage, and a lot of it.

 

I still reckon you cannot justify your position with an in-hgame example: what sfx are you going to be applying to an AoE TK that justifies you being able to pick up several tons in weight of small objects, but only a few hundred KG of large objects?

 

 

Honestly, I really don't see it as any more problematic than the example of the large blast area that doesn't do any more damage to the building that the single target version. Both are dodgy, but they're equally dodgy and you see area effect done all the time.

 

And I do understand the agent issue; but that's just as much of a problem with single target versions and a flying hero, and at least the time taken is an issue (given how moving objects works with TK unless that's changed in 5e its based on throwing). Until you get to a certain threshold, its entirely possible for the targets to struggle free before they get to any great height, and by the time you've gotten them there--well, how many times could you have shot them with a regular area? A dozen?

 

Also can I just ask again aboutt eh autofire thing, and what people think on that?

 

Well, you can probably predict my answer from how I see the area thing; of course I'd treat each TK unit in the autofire attack as full power.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

The difference between Normal TK and Affects Whole Object TK is variability:

 

Normal TK - can lift a person up in the air. can grab a limb or two and restrain them, can grab one are and cause it to wave good bye.

 

Affects Whole Object TK - can only grab and/or lift entire person.

 

Normal TK - can pull the trigger on a gun.

 

Affects Whole Object TK - can only grab and move the entire gun around.

 

Also, keep in mind Affects Whole Object is nominally to simulate using TK and Artificial Gravity: You don't pull separate parts in different directions, they all have to go in the same direction.

So with Affects Whole Object TK, you can't pick up a rope by one end, letting the rest of it dangle? Can you pick up an object tied to something else? Or with a rope attached to it? What counts as a "whole object"? Can you pick up one link in a chain? Can you pick up a bucket with water in it, or does the water count as a different object that prevents the bucket from being lifted? If you can pick up the bucket with water in it, can you tip the bucket and pour out the water? Can just the trigger of a gun count as a "whole object"? Can other forces besides your TK act on an object you pick up? Or do they cancel out your TK entirely?

[CTaylor]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

So with Affects Whole Object TK, you can't pick up a rope by one end, letting the rest of it dangle? Can you pick up an object tied to something else? Or with a rope attached to it?

 

Correct, you have to grab the entire contiguous object.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

......................

 

 

Well, you can probably predict my answer from how I see the area thing; of course I'd treat each TK unit in the autofire attack as full power.

 

I'm not necessarily disagreeing....so maybe the way to pick up a lot of objects over a large area and exceed the base STR of the TK is with an AoE Autofire TK?

[Paragon]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

I'm not necessarily disagreeing....so maybe the way to pick up a lot of objects over a large area and exceed the base STR of the TK is with an AoE Autofire TK?

 

If I saw any reason to not just do it with a regular area and not do this silly power spreading which is done nowhere else in the system, I might agree, but as it is its kludging a fix for a problem I don't see any reason to exist in the first place. As I said, I honestly think this is a psychological issue, not a balance one. Any logical problem with the TK effecting individual objects at full power and not contrinbuting more against multihex objects applies just as much to damage; any balance issues applies just as much to any area NND.

[Tech]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

As to the Accurate advantage for AoE 1 Hex' date=' I don't see anything unclear about it, but I am also looking at the 5ER version which likely has clarified wording. Basically what it does is mean that for a single target in the hex you are effecting you can attack them as if they had a DCV of 3. If they decide to Dodge they can add the DCV bonus from their Dodge to that base 3 DCV. And in fact if you Dodge, you can also add and CSL's that can apply to your Dodge in as well. You do not need to Dive For Cover to avoid the attack like you do for most AoE attacks.[/quote']

 

I do recall saying I don't have the 5ER but this does clarify things.

 

I still say the AE 1 Hex should be a variation of Area Effect, in the same vein that Instant Change became a variation of Transform and Regeneration part of Healing. (shudders)

[archermoo]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

I do recall saying I don't have the 5ER but this does clarify things.

 

I still say the AE 1 Hex should be a variation of Area Effect, in the same vein that Instant Change became a variation of Transform and Regeneration part of Healing. (shudders)

 

AE 1 Hex already is a variant of Area Effect, so no change needed.

 

Area of Effect has 5 different varients: 1 Hex, Radius, Cone, Line, and Any Area.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

So with Affects Whole Object TK' date=' you can't pick up a rope by one end, letting the rest of it dangle? Can you pick up an object tied to something else? Or with a rope attached to it? What counts as a "whole object"? Can you pick up one link in a chain? Can you pick up a bucket with water in it, or does the water count as a different object that prevents the bucket from being lifted? If you can pick up the bucket with water in it, can you tip the bucket and pour out the water? Can just the trigger of a gun count as a "whole object"? Can other forces besides your TK act on an object you pick up? Or do they cancel out your TK entirely?[/quote']

 

what constitutes a single "Whole Object" will probably be obvious in most cases, if it's not obvious a consensus between GM and Players will have to be reached.

 

One end of a rope: No.

And object tied to something else: Maybe.

 

One link in a chain? I would say no, the whole length of chain is "An object"

 

I'm not going to get into a semantic argument over "what is an object" ... but it's a LIMITATION on a Power - you must affect THE ENTIRE OBJECT or WHOLE OBJECT.

 

However you break that down in your games is your issue.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

I'm not going to get into a semantic argument over "what is an object" ... but it's a LIMITATION on a Power - you must affect THE ENTIRE OBJECT or WHOLE OBJECT.

But I think that's where the problem lies - and it's not just a semantic one. Yes, it's a Limitation, but I always took that limitation to mean that you can only apply one "point of force" to an object, not that you must overcome all other forces on the object (such a gravity on a dangling rope).

 

By your interpretation (and I'm not saying you're wrong), you shouldn't be able to pick up a stick and telekinetically bash it against a solid wall so that the stick breaks, because you're then not affecting the whole object as one. The TK moves "part" of the stick and the wall prevents movement of "part" of the stick. Likewise with the rope: the TK moves one end, and gravity pulls the other end down.

 

And at the same time, a bucket could be one whole object, but the water in it, is not the object, so you could scoop up water and pour it out, etc. Likewise, you could pick up a wooden block as one object, but it might have other blocks stacked on top of it which you could make fall by tipping the one block you're "holding".

 

And you could telekinetically pick up a hook (or hook-shaped object), poke it through the link on one end of a chain, and thus effectively pick up the whole chain by the one link. Likewise, if a rope is tied around a small object, you can pick up that object and let the rope dangle.

 

This is why it seems a bit contradictory to me to say that "Affects Whole Object" means that the object must remain completely immobile (relative to itself). That would essentially mean that no other forces act on an object while you use TK on it - not gravity, not wind, not its own inertia, not even the presence of other solid objects.

 

To me, "Affects Whole Objects" means you can't hold a gun steady while pulling the trigger - if you hold the gun steady, the trigger also stays steady; and if you pull back the trigger, the whole gun gets pulled back. It means you can't work a pair of scissors, or plyers telekinetically - that would require two separate opposing forces to be applied to the object at the same time. Likewise, you can't grab a rope by multiple points (which you would need to do to tie it in a knot). And you can't bend or break an object unless some other force (besides your TK) would do so, such as gravity, or another solid object.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

"Whole Object" means.. the entire object.

 

You can pick up an entire stick. You cannot affect a leaf or offshoot that is part of the stick.

 

I think you're overcomplicating the issue to an utterly stupid degree.

 

whole |hōl|

adjective

1 [ attrib. ] all of; entire : he spent the whole day walking | she wasn't telling the whole truth.

 

ah, yeah.. that was simple.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

"Whole Object" means.. the entire object.

 

You can pick up an entire stick. You cannot affect a leaf or offshoot that is part of the stick.

 

I think you're overcomplicating the issue to an utterly stupid degree.

I'm fully aware what "whole" means. I don't think I'm complicating anything. I'm looking for clarification. It's actually quite simple: do other forces act on objects that are being moved with TK? You seem to be saying "no" which leads to all sorts of weird problems. I pick up a stick and whack it against a wall, but the stick can't be broken.

 

If you think this is "stupid" then feel free not to respond.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Area Effect TK

 

Why not? Whole Object doesn't dictate what angle the stick is whacked against the wall - which is as much a factor of breakage as simple force.

 

You throw it at one vector, an intersecting object affects that vector enacting a force that's not you on it.