Can this be done x 2

[Istaran]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

I bet that any non VPP you could design beforehand' date=' I can (after you do that) come up with an item I could put in my house that wouldn't be covered in a story-truth appropriate way. Then we are back to the GM saying, "well, you can't teleport *that*."[/quote']

 

So your story truth requires that you be able to have infinite flexibility, which in game mechanics is pronounced "Variable Power Pool".

 

If you chose a different story truth, such as that you need to spend conciderable time 'memorizing' a particular object in your house to prepare yourself to teleport it, that could be covered well by a multipower: when you come up with new objects to add to the list you preplan and put it on the list, familiarizing yourself with the object in game and writing it's mechanics on your character sheet and spending CP in metagame. It is every bit as reasonable of a story truth. After all, why can you call an object to you blindly from several kilometers or several states away? Because it happens to be in your house? (VPP) Or because you've taken the time to attune yourself to that object so that you can call it? (multipower)

If you want to work with the system sometimes it helps to adjust your story truths to fit the broad set of story truths readily available within the system. They are mostly costed appropriately compared to one another to make characters fairly balanced. If you chose your story truths first and hold them immutable and inflexible you may have trouble getting Hero to do what you want. You may have to do things outside the Rules As Written (gasp and alarm!). Just be aware that doing things outside the Rules As Written has not been costed for balance.

[Istaran]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

Maybe that is the key for me and my group. Maybe we need to play this game backwards.

 

Instead of focussing on points, maybe we should just decide what powers with what limits each has, and then build that, however many points it needs in the System.

 

Of course, then we have to do any balancing ourselves, as opposed to a game like BoH/MEGS, in which I believe you can use points to buy powers instead of effects.

 

Plus if we have to do all the character creation balancing work ourselves, we could just stay in Torg.

 

But it's an interesting idea I will bring up when we meet.

 

Maybe the answer will be to work on building the characters you want (points be damned!) and figure out which character costs the most. Then give everyone that many points to pick up higher characteristics, scale up their powers, flesh out skills, etc. Maybe you'll end up in the 1000+ pt range because that's what it takes to realize one of the concepts.

[sindyr]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

This is an intrinsic limitation to any point-based system. If you don't have points left over' date=' you don't get new abilities. If you want to consistently be using fairly minor effects you did not pay for specifically, that's the Power Skill. If you want to consistently add major effects, that is a VPP.[/quote']

 

I think you are either missing my point, or demonstrating it.

 

In a non-effects based system, you spend your build points for the SFX (like teleport) and then get to continually come up with creative ways to use and leverage the base power/ability.

 

Example: You buy TP in Hero, you can move someting from A to B if that's all it does. You buy TP in, say, MEGS, you can move an object above a baddie and drop it on them, without having to know before that later you would use teleport that way.

 

The only way to get that flexibility of creative power use in each character is to make each character get a VPP.

 

If every character is infinitely versatile, frankly I think that makes for a boring game. Why does Captain Omnipotent even need teammates?

 

You have misunderstood me. NO ONE IS ASKING FOR OMNIPOTENCE. All that's being discussed is the illogic of not being able to use a limited power in a new or novel way simply because you hadn't imagined that use when you built the character. This is NOT THE SAME THING as an unlimited, unbalanced power. It's basically a function of *real life*.

 

As we have left off the clear mechanic for building the near-infinitely versatile character, you buy a Multipower and you add slots for new items you buy for your home with experience. Not enough xp? You have not located the barbed wire, or paid for it, or figured out how to reliably store it so it can teleport to surround someone. More practice and time, and more xp, will solve that.

 

So we STILL have the same problem - the barbed wire is in my home, but I can't teleport it because I have no XP/CP to add to my character sheet.

 

Let's review the issue. Many others have noted that, if the flashlight is of minor impact, the GM would logically allow it to be accessed, possibly with use of the power skill. Let's look at some possible issues with the flashlight, though:

 

- you don't recall where you left the blasted thing - you recall using it when you were in the basement and the light burned out while you were looking for your barbed wire, and now you don't remember where you left it.

 

The power allows you to teleport stuff from your house. You do not need to know where in your house it is.

 

- the batteries are dead, or the bulb is burned out.

 

This is way too fishy when it happens each time - the coincidences pile up when players realize that it's just a thin veil of the GM saying NO.

 

Now, what I *would* do is either keep track of the battery levels in the flashlight ahead of time, or simply make a roll to randomly determine tah battery levels. That's fair. But simply using it as a cheat (IMO) to deny a playing is zero different from saying "You dont get to do that". It's way to transparent.

 

- that #@*& CAT - he knocked the flashlight off the table and the bulb broke!

 

Same as above, too darn convenient and transparent and still does not respect the truth of the game world that maybe the cat didn't do that at all.

 

Just the top of my head. And the flashlight likely won't weather the first 12d6 attack very well...

 

Which is fine as long as you ROLL and don't kill the flashlight by FIAT.

 

In a story, the writer sets these limits. In a game, they are set by the rules. In how many works of fiction (movies, books, comics, whatever) does the character with the versatile power suite solve the problem every time with no issues? he, too, is limited in what he can and cannot do.

 

If he is not, the story has no drama, and the game has no real interest. It's just a matter of figuring out how my SFX can somehow deal handily with whatever the challenge may be.

 

I agree that you need drama and conflict and players that face challenges, but none of this will have any true impact if the integrity, ayhtneticity, and internal logic of the game world is not respected.

 

The sanctity of the truth of this imaginary world is paramount to me. As important as balance and drama is, and it IS, balance and drama is worthless if you have a world that you simply can't believe in.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

.............................

The problem here is that *every* power set ultimately *should* be able to have some versatile use - I *want* the player's coming up with new ways to leverage their abilities. Plus I don't want to be, "Here's *your VPP, Fred. Here's *your* VPP, Sam. Here's *your* VPP, Jack" etc.

 

 

................................

 

 

No, really, some characters are just 2D power wise, I've given you a couple of examples. It is absolutely true that many characters who have a lot of XP will consider a VPP, but that is far from inevitable.

 

Stuff like super strength can have interesting uses, but it doesn't need a VPP. Maybe some brick trick powers and the occasional use of the power skill though what you'll mainly be doing is hitting people .

 

Energy projectors don't have to gain perfect control over their chosen element. Teleporters don't have to be able to teleport anything. Sometimes characters can just do what they can do and no more. They can still be interesting and rewarding to play.

 

The trouble is we do not know what you've played in the past and how the games have been run. We can't therefore show you how you can have a similar or better experience in Hero. You CAN play amazingly powerful characters, but you have to assume all the other PCs will also be amazingly powerful as will a good number of the villains.

[sindyr]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

Beyond that, perhaps be a little patient. I play a shapeshifter in my current Hero game. There's a few things I want to be able to do that are just going to have to wait on points (what, I can't make claws? Dang it!).

 

Even the claw thing I could buy as needing to investing time learning to shape claws in one's flesh - waiting on the XP is explainable in a way that seems to me believable.

 

However, in a game where I routinely TP all kinds of stuff from my house, to not be able to get the flashlight is not at all believable, especially as such weirdnesses pile up (First the flashlight, then the fridge, etc...

 

To say nothing about teleporting the SAME item I have previously teleported (like maybe a chair) but in a new way that is intended to cause a newly thought of effect (like above the baddie's head). Nope. Note allowed.

[sindyr]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

That is the first sign that the power is defined way too broadly and is probably too versatile for anything short of a VPP.

 

Maybe I misunderstand you, but it's saying like you mean one of the following:

 

1) The player is asking for too much power (too broadly and too versatile = too powerful??)

 

This is only true by circular defintion - it certainly isn't more powerful than Superman. It's too much power only *inasmuch* as Hero System can't model it without a VPP. Of course, that's no different from simply saying that "Hero System has a weakness - it cannot model versatile powers with VPPs"

 

2) Anyone who wants the kind of potential versatility that having a certain ability can be used for in real life needs to always take VPPs.

 

Which is what I was guessing many pages ago.

[sindyr]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

I would argue that the objects that would break even a simple MP would not be story-truth appropriate for the character to have put in his house.

 

Like what? Most any non-rare thing is something the player can say "I wish I had a shovel at home - GM, as soon as I get back to my home, I am going to pick up a shovel at the local hardware store and put it in my house."

 

I mean, it makes sense for many things not to be in the house the FIRST time he wants them, but (If he can get home soon) that can be quickly rectified from that point on.

[sindyr]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

So your story truth requires that you be able to have infinite flexibility' date=' which in game mechanics is pronounced "Variable Power Pool". [/quote']

 

Story truth *in general*, not mine, requires that powers have *realistic* flexibility, that's my point.

[jtelson]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

Like what? Most any non-rare thing is something the player can say "I wish I had a shovel at home - GM, as soon as I get back to my home, I am going to pick up a shovel at the local hardware store and put it in my house."

 

I mean, it makes sense for many things not to be in the house the FIRST time he wants them, but (If he can get home soon) that can be quickly rectified from that point on.

 

Most non-rare things that have a minor effect of the world, like a shovel, get picked up by the transform.

[sindyr]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

No' date=' really, some characters are just 2D power wise, I've given you a couple of examples. It is absolutely true that many characters who have a lot of XP will consider a VPP, but that is far from inevitable.[/quote']

 

Okay, that's fair and true. Some character can be built to do what the player intends without needing a VPP because the player's future uses are pretty limited - like the Brick for example - if he is supertough and superstrong, you may get no complaints or unusual uses from the players.

 

But an *awful lot* of powers aren't quite so 2d - teleportation, superspeed, magic (depending), Element Mastery (fire), Friction Control, Light Manipulation - many staples of powers are quite easily used creatively.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

I think you are either missing my point, or demonstrating it.

 

In a non-effects based system, you spend your build points for the SFX (like teleport) and then get to continually come up with creative ways to use and leverage the base power/ability.

 

Example: You buy TP in Hero, you can move someting from A to B if that's all it does. You buy TP in, say, MEGS, you can move an object above a baddie and drop it on them, without having to know before that later you would use teleport that way.

 

The only way to get that flexibility of creative power use in each character is to make each character get a VPP.

 

.....................

 

Can you point out where it says this?

 

If you buy superstrength and flight you can pick up something heavy, fly over a villain and drop the object on them.

 

If you buy teleport with extra mass you can grab a heavy object, teleport with it over a villain and drop it on them (and you drop too unless you have another movement power or you bought the TP UAA so you could move stuff without you moving too).

 

I think you are seeing Hero as far too restrictive. It isn't.

 

You could also buy the rock drop trick as a AoE EB with TP rock sfx, and stick it in a MP with your TP power. If you do it is a lot more effective and reliable than flinging scenery.

 

Now don't get me wrong, Hero does have restrictions which have just been put there for game balance purposes, and they tend to tick me off so I largely ignore them, but there are no where near as many restrictions as you seem to be seeing.

 

You can teleport barbed wire and drop it on people. Won't be anywhere near as effective as buying an entangle or a continuous AoE KA.

 

You can TP summon an ordinary flashlight, which counters the penalty for darkness in a narrow beam.

 

You say it is too convenient that the cat knocked over the flashlight and broke the bulb but you want a power that you don't want restricted which is...convenient. Maybe the cat didn't knock over the flashlight, and the GM should respect that. Maybe the cat did, and you should respect that.

 

Seriously, what sort of stuff do you keep in your house? No one here is going to say 'Sure, you can TP anything in your house to you' without knowing what it is you'll be teleporting. No GM would - that is simply allowing you to make up stuff and justify having it. List, please. If it is 'normal household stuff' - knives, forks, kettle, cans of food, bed linen, flashlight, toolkit, matches, the cat, no need to list it. Just the stuff you know is going to be greeted with, "Now wait a damn minute...!". You know, like the rolls of barbed wire you keep unrolled and spread out in the spare room.

[sindyr]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

Most non-rare things that have a minor effect of the world' date=' like a shovel, get picked up by the transform.[/quote']

 

I very willing to be proven wrong - can you write up this power with transform and whatnot - 100-200 points - and *then* I will see if some rationally expected use would not be covered?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

There's another use I hadn't even thought of - teleport something heavy like the fridge above something fragile, like the bad guy.

 

This is what I mean, there are so many potential uses, I could not hope to think of every single one of them beforehand.

 

Again, you're thinking backwards.

 

You don't need to know you're going to drop a fridge on someone, or a car, anvil, piano, skateboard or rotten fruit. All you need to know is you're dropping an object with intent to hurt.

 

What is going on here?

I am damaging the Target from a distance: Energy Blast, Ranged Killing Attack

I am lifting an object of opportunity: Telekinesis, of a Focus Limitation on my damage.

 

OK, with those two questions we have 3 possible Power choices, and one Limitation for the first two.

 

Let's analyze each one:

Energy Blast - this is a basic attack ability, you project some force and hurt someone.

Killing Attack - same as above, potentially more lethal (specifically to a normal person)

Telekinesis - the ability to lift objects at range, and do damage based on the amount of Telekinesis Strength.

 

Focus Limitation: Object Of Opportunity

applied to Energy Blast or Killing Attack means you can only use these powers when you have an appropriate object on hand (fridge).

 

The "teleporting" of the fridge from the corner of the room to over the bad guys head is a Special Effect of an Energy Blast (or KA). [as a note: this build also usually adds Side Effect: Damages Environment]

 

Now for 60 Points you can do:

12D6 of Energy Blast (Normal Damage)

4D6 of Killing Attack (Killing Damage)

40 STR of Telekinesis (for Damage purposes this is 8D6 Normal Damage)

 

So, now you must decide which best reflects just how much you can hurt someone with a fridge. And purchase that power as "Teleport Object From Location to Over Targets Head"

 

the teleportation itself is merely a Special Effect of your ability to Damage a Target.

 

Does that help explain how we think things through, and why you're getting answers you aren't getting any help from?

 

To build a Power, or set of Powers, in Hero you ask the following three questions IN THIS ORDER:

 

What is my Special Effect (teleport object over someone's head)

What is the intent of this ability (to hurt someone)

What Powers best reflect that ability (99% of the time more than one Power or Power Build will get the same results)

 

 

[also: regarding mundane items and points - please read This Essay From Killer Shrike It is an invaluable tool]

[sindyr]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

If you buy teleport with extra mass you can grab a heavy object, teleport with it over a villain and drop it on them (and you drop too unless you have another movement power or you bought the TP UAA so you could move stuff without you moving too).

 

I think you are seeing Hero as far too restrictive. It isn't.

 

Maybe I am. Maybe it's like American Laws - there are tons of them, but no one really makes you obey them until you start causing a real problem.

 

You say it is too convenient that the cat knocked over the flashlight and broke the bulb but you want a power that you don't want restricted which is...convenient. Maybe the cat didn't knock over the flashlight, and the GM should respect that. Maybe the cat did, and you should respect that.

 

Well, it would be kind of weird if the player didn't own a cat. But even if he did what I am saying is the GM should *roll*, not decide, to see if the cat did knock it over. And not just for the flashlight, but for anything.

 

Course if the flashlight is in a drawer, the cat should NOT be rolled for.

 

Seriously, what sort of stuff do you keep in your house? No one here is going to say 'Sure, you can TP anything in your house to you' without knowing what it is you'll be teleporting. No GM would - that is simply allowing you to make up stuff and justify having it. List, please. If it is 'normal household stuff' - knives, forks, kettle, cans of food, bed linen, flashlight, toolkit, matches, the cat, no need to list it. Just the stuff you know is going to be greeted with, "Now wait a damn minute...!". You know, like the rolls of barbed wire you keep unrolled and spread out in the spare room.

 

The idea I think is that the player would give a list of stuff that they were putting in there house for future TP use to the GM. The GM has every right to question items on the list, like plutonium, but should also not be overly strict - a set of walkie talkies the player mentiones ahead of time on the list, is probably OK. As is a closet full of batteries of all size.

 

Actually, it would be kind of cool to roleplay the character going to this guys house, walking through corridors with stuff that "might come in handy one day" piled here and there.

[sindyr]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

Again' date=' you're thinking backwards.[/quote']

 

If that's true, then you should be able to make this power I described on 100-200 points, and I should not be able to come up with a reasonable use that isn't covered.

 

Please do.

[Istaran]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

Even the claw thing I could buy as needing to investing time learning to shape claws in one's flesh - waiting on the XP is explainable in a way that seems to me believable.

 

However, in a game where I routinely TP all kinds of stuff from my house, to not be able to get the flashlight is not at all believable, especially as such weirdnesses pile up (First the flashlight, then the fridge, etc...

 

To say nothing about teleporting the SAME item I have previously teleported (like maybe a chair) but in a new way that is intended to cause a newly thought of effect (like above the baddie's head). Nope. Note allowed.

 

The way I purchased my Shape Shift SFX based powers is with a MP (in all fairness, my GM doesn't allow VPPs. So I work with what I've got). If I were doing the Teleport Stuff From My House it would be the same way.

VPP: I can do anything my SFX can justify (within a point cap) Wee!

MP: I can pre-plan any option my SFX can justify (paying points in the process) and be able to use those options conveniently. lowercase wee!

As it is my shapeshifter can grow claws, they just don't do anything different than punch! After all, I can have Any Shape. I paid for that. But for some reason I can't Stretch out an extra 1" when I'm Shrunk to 1/2 dimensions. Give me some time (XP) and I'll get that down too. And maybe figure out how to make a KA claws..

(Want to make it harder for your brain? I have Shapeshift and an associated MP... AND Multiform. So I can change into my draconic alter ego and have deadly claws, a breath weapon, etc that I can't do when I can shapeshift into 'any form'. Someday I may be able to unify the two character sheets into a single versatile shapeshifting draconic thingy of doom.. but that's many many points from now.)

 

Anyways, my point was that the broad mechanical effects of 'I can call to me any thing that happens to be in my house' is simply unboundedly versatile. You have clearly defined it as such, and made clear that to you the idea of a thing being in your house and unable to be called to you is unacceptable. That is a text-book example of something that should be a VPP. Just like the guy that can shapeshift into anything should have a VPP for physical advantages of the chosen form.

If the teleporter needs to attune to specific objects to call them or the shapeshifter needs to practice to learn to form claws, shrink, grow, etc. specifically then MP works just fine.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

Okay, that's fair and true. Some character can be built to do what the player intends without needing a VPP because the player's future uses are pretty limited - like the Brick for example - if he is supertough and superstrong, you may get no complaints or unusual uses from the players.

 

But an *awful lot* of powers aren't quite so 2d - teleportation, superspeed, magic (depending), Element Mastery (fire), Friction Control, Light Manipulation - many staples of powers are quite easily used creatively.

 

But you CAN build all those things with limtied utility. It doesn't make sense in the context of the books and comics that form the background of superheroic fiction that a starting character has complete mastery over his or her abilities. Sure The Flash can do all sorts of things now that he didn't do before, and maybe he COULD have done them before, but he didn't. That is the truth of his story.

 

Just because you can think of all sorts of uses for a power, doesn't meant he character did.

 

However, I agree: a lot of concepts CAN lead to a broad array of powers. That does not mean that every character has to look homogenous or that every character needs a VPP, but having a VPP is certainly an option that Hero allows.

 

You've certainly sparked some lively discussions since you've been here

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

I bet that any non VPP you could design beforehand' date=' I can (after you do that) come up with an item I could put in my house that wouldn't be covered in a story-truth appropriate way. Then we are back to the GM saying, "well, you can't teleport *that*."[/quote']

 

I was just popping back on the boards after a long absence and wound up perusing your various threads.

 

This isn't an insurmountable challenge right here, but the question can't really be definitively answered until you decide on your campaign ground rules.

 

That said there are still a number of ways to achieve this effect.

 

Although you don't want to hear it, mechanically speaking the best way to simulate your Teleport stuff from home power is with a VPP, a variation of a Gadget Pool, with the "Must return to base to change pool" restriction removed. (FYI, the 4th Edition version of one of the iconic Hero System characters The Harbinger of Justice, had essentially this same power, only limited to weapons). From a functional in-game perspective this ability isn't much different than Batman's utility belt, especially in the older days when it had almost everything in it ("Bat Shark-Repellent?"), and thus the build, not surprisingly, will be similar.

 

Another option, if you're offended by the "how much does a flashlight cost in Points" dilemma (which is more smoke than fire once you've played the system), is to use the Resource Points rules for mundane equipment in your games and then build your character with an appropriate power suite to manage your t-port powers. A build like the "Special Delivery" multipower is a good basis, but it doesn't quite do what you'd want. For that, you'd need something on the order of (This will be really quick & dirty 'cause my books aren't handy):

Teleport, Useable as Attack, safe blind port, Ranged (Line of Sight), with some way to get enough Teleport, Non Combat Multiples, or Megascale to give you the range you want to be able to accomplish this.

 

Add to this:

 

Detect (Stuff I've memorized the location of), Targeting, Ranged, bo-ku range additions as above, No range modifier. Unusual Sense group.

 

Make your perception roll and you can remember the details about your desired subject with sufficient clarity that you can port it to anywhere you can see. (Line of Sight means you can hit what you can perceive, and with the detect you effectively have a way to target "your stuff" that is hard to block).

 

A point to consider about your design philosophy.

 

Right now you're thinking about "What can this do?"

Don't forget to think about "What CAN'T this do?"

 

An ability without defined limits is a plot device.

 

Edit: Oh yeah.... Power Skill is a must no matter what. It's the "I can pull off this weird idea" catchall.

Like "Changing the phase modulation on the deflector array to emit Unobtainium particles that will allow our weapons to effect the alien ship"... all Trek Engineers have Power Skill: Treknology

[sindyr]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

Anyways' date=' my point was that the broad mechanical effects of 'I can call to me any thing that happens to be in my house' is simply unboundedly versatile. You have clearly defined it as such, and made clear that to you the idea of a thing being in your house and unable to be called to you is unacceptable. [/quote']

 

I sincerely can't agree that it unboundedly versatile, because I can't call something to me that I haven't at some point had myself or someone else put in the house.

 

Still, it is *very* versatile.

 

That is a text-book example of something that should be a VPP. Just like the guy that can shapeshift into anything should have a VPP for physical advantages of the chosen form.

If the teleporter needs to attune to specific objects to call them or the shapeshifter needs to practice to learn to form claws, shrink, grow, etc. specifically then MP works just fine.

 

...just make sure that the attunement does take *too* long to the point that it seems unrealistic... of course that's much more open to interpretation, if we are not talking days or weeks or months

[ghost-angel]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

If that's true, then you should be able to make this power I described on 100-200 points, and I should not be able to come up with a reasonable use that isn't covered.

 

Please do.

 

You gave me a point limitation, without a Special Effect, a series of desired end results, and without fully comprehending the underlying Reason From Effect concept.

 

I'm laughing.

 

 

OK. Your power was "I can 'teleport' any object within 1000 feet to anywhere else within 1000 feet" correct?

 

Telekinesis (40 STR), Affects Porous, Fine Manipulation, Increased Maximum Range (4,000"; +1/4), Invisible Power Effects (Fully Invisible; +1) (180 Active Points)

 

I even made it so you can grab the water out of a bucket. Little more than a 1000 feet actually.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

I very willing to be proven wrong - can you write up this power with transform and whatnot - 100-200 points - and *then* I will see if some rationally expected use would not be covered?

 

I'd be astonished if you couldn't find something that the system didn't do well in those circumstances, but all you are really testing is the ability to predict what you are going to come up with. The VPP genuinely does solve this (limited, of course to teleport applications).

 

I'm not going to write up a MP in detail as I should have been in bed hours ago, but you'd need to include RKA and EB with variable sfx and indirect, an entangle, a summon and a transform. You might stick in a drain to cover odd chemicals you have at home. You might do a slot for change environment. Obviously you will be wanting a TP UAA too.

 

That will probably cover almost everything.

[Istaran]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

Maybe I misunderstand you, but it's saying like you mean one of the following:

 

1) The player is asking for too much power (too broadly and too versatile = too powerful??)

 

This is only true by circular defintion - it certainly isn't more powerful than Superman. It's too much power only *inasmuch* as Hero System can't model it without a VPP. Of course, that's no different from simply saying that "Hero System has a weakness - it cannot model versatile powers with VPPs"

 

2) Anyone who wants the kind of potential versatility that having a certain ability can be used for in real life needs to always take VPPs.

 

Which is what I was guessing many pages ago.

 

Hero system does not handle unbounded versatility without a VPP. If you want to have the power "I want to make up a power on the spot (that fits my SFX) and have that power, without fail, without requiring GM generocity as something that is a defined part of my power" that's called a VPP. Power skill can be made to fit the bill if need be.

 

By the way, this whole conversation exemplifies why Hero does not have external teleport (you teleport something without going with it) as a native part of the system, and requires you to use a Stop Sign Advantage to get it. The blanket ability "I can teleport things" does a lot of mechanical effects off of one SFX. Hero wants you to pay for your mechanical effects (and largely doesn't care about your SFX). It's impossible to try and balance SFX. Points don't do that. It's possible to balance mechanical effects. Points do that. Versatility has a cost: multipower and VPP assess that cost.

 

If you want to have an unbounded set of diversely useful objects you can call to you (any object I can convince my GM I OBVIOUSLY had in my house, despite never having given any indication of it previously; I mean, why should I have to declare what things are in my pocket, err, I mean house before whipping them out in combat?) then you want the construct in the game that gives an unbounded set of diversely useful options: VPP. If you want to have a predefined set of diversely useful options, that can be an MP. VPP is I have unboundedly diverse choices on the fly, MP is I predefine my choices.

 

This isn't a weakness of Hero system. For a weakness of Hero system see STR, DEX, and maybe HA.

[sindyr]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

You gave me a point limitation, without a Special Effect, a series of desired end results, and without fully comprehending the underlying Reason From Effect concept.

 

I'm laughing.

 

 

OK. Your power was "I can 'teleport' any object within 1000 feet to anywhere else within 1000 feet" correct?

 

Telekinesis (40 STR), Affects Porous, Fine Manipulation, Increased Maximum Range (4,000"; +1/4), Invisible Power Effects (Fully Invisible; +1) (180 Active Points)

 

I even made it so you can grab the water out of a bucket. Little more than a 1000 feet actually.

 

I apologize, we are talking about a different power at this point on this thread.

 

I don't know how to define it in Hero System terms (and the challenge is to do it without using a VPP), but what it does is wherever in the world teh Packrat is, he can teleport any object from his house to any spot near him, within say 30 feet. He doesn't even have to know where the thing is in his house.

 

For one example, if the Packrat find himself in the dark, and there is a flashlight in the Packrat's house somewhere, even if the Packrat cannot remember where in the house the flashlight is, he can teleport to himself - or to any place within 30 feet of him.

 

Obviously, if anyone surrounds the Packrat with a Hardened Forcefield, it would probably stop this power, unless he buys ArmorPiercing or something.

 

But anything the Packrat has at his house he can TP to him (or a point within 30 feet of him.)

 

How do you build that in such a way that the Packrat's player can later say "I told you I was getting an X, and putting it in my house, now I want to TP the X to me" and the GM cannot say "you didn't by that effect".

[sindyr]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

I'd be astonished if you couldn't find something that the system didn't do well in those circumstances, but all you are really testing is the ability to predict what you are going to come up with. The VPP genuinely does solve this (limited, of course to teleport applications).

 

I'm not going to write up a MP in detail as I should have been in bed hours ago, but you'd need to include RKA and EB with variable sfx and indirect, an entangle, a summon and a transform. You might stick in a drain to cover odd chemicals you have at home. You might do a slot for change environment. Obviously you will be wanting a TP UAA too.

 

That will probably cover almost everything.

 

Well of course, you have no obligation to miss valueable sleep and come up with the actual writeup of the ability... On the other hand, I can't really comment until I have such a writeup in front of me..

[ghost-angel]

Re: Can this be done x 2

 

I apologize, we are talking about a different power at this point on this thread.

 

I don't know how to define it in Hero System terms (and the challenge is to do it without using a VPP), but what it does is wherever in the world teh Packrat is, he can teleport any object from his house to any spot near him, within say 30 feet. He doesn't even have to know where the thing is in his house.

 

For one example, if the Packrat find himself in the dark, and there is a flashlight in the Packrat's house somewhere, even if the Packrat cannot remember where in the house the flashlight is, he can teleport to himself - or to any place within 30 feet of him.

 

Obviously, if anyone surrounds the Packrat with a Hardened Forcefield, it would probably stop this power, unless he buys ArmorPiercing or something.

 

But anything the Packrat has at his house he can TP to him (or a point within 30 feet of him.)

 

How do you build that in such a way that the Packrat's player can later say "I told you I was getting an X, and putting it in my house, now I want to TP the X to me" and the GM cannot say "you didn't by that effect".

 

I answered that. It's a VPP. End of discussion.

 

Any other questions?