Power Manipulation Skill

[Sean Waters]

So, I love the idea of the Power Skill, but it is cheap and so doesn’t actually do much.

I’m thinking of a new improved version that costs 10 points for a 11- roll (or 5 for a 8- roll) and each +1 is an extra 5 points.

The skill works for one named power or +5 points you can apply it to a single framework or to a second power. Each +5 points doubles the number of powers/frameworks it can affect.

You can use it to make significant changes to the way a power works and you can do so several times without having to actually change the power.

In a given phase you can try and change the way your power works by adding or removing power modifiers and adders. Each +1/4 or –1/4 change applies a –1 to your roll. Each 5 points of adder also applies a –1 penalty.

If you make a roll and the roll fails you can not use the power at all that phase, even in its base form. Use of the skill is a half phase non-attack action.

The changes are not permanent, and require maintenance: having successfully changed how a power works you can maintain that change by making a PMS* Roll at the same penalty that applied to change the power, but at a +4 bonus (so if you needed to roll 9 or less to change the power, you only need 13 or less to maintain the change each phase).

Additionally, at a penalty assessed by the GM you can do ‘cool stuff’ with a power – make your EB into the shape of a giant hand pointing at the villain, or whatever. You can also change how the base power works – perhaps using an ice blast to drain a flame attack. Generally getting a power to do something different but within the same category of powers (another attack power, for instance) should be at least a –5 penalty and getting a power to do something completely different (using an attack power as a defence power, for instance) should apply at least –10. In addition you have to be able to justify to the GM how, based on the sfx of the power, you could change it so that it works differently.

At the GM’s discretion you might have to take some additional penalty, for instance you might be required to pay double END when using a modified power. If the GM stipulates such a requirement he can give you a bonus on your roll if he feels it appropriate, but generally you can’t trade off adding limitations to the power to improve your roll.

This is a skill so is non-persistent and does not cost END. I might be persuaded that it should be a power and should cost END.

This is a honking great STOP power. It should not be used in games where the GM and players enjoy crafting the characters precisely, but could work well in a more freewheeling game.

This is massively abusable so you’re not allowed to abuse it.

Thoughts?

*OK, so that’s not an ideal acronym….

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Power Manipulation Skill

 

In first edition Fantasy Hero, for the Variable Advantage Modifier and the Variable Result Advantage, you needed to make a Magic Skill Roll to change things around.

 

I'm not sure if that's the kind of comment you were looking for...

[ghost-angel]

Re: Power Manipulation Skill

 

I don't like the "it's cheap so doesn't do much" reason for trying to reinvent the wheel.

 

Considering the penalties to a Power Skill Roll based on Active Points I would say it could become a considerable investment on a character determined to use it.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Power Manipulation Skill

 

Well it is but it specifically does not allow you to keep changing your power in the same way without paying for an upgrade. The idea of this (and it might have been a mistake to even mention the Power Skill) was to allow characters to be built where you can change around what they can do on th efly without necessarily designing everything they can do when you build the character, or re-building every time you think of something. Remember Sindyr?

 

As specifically noted it would be an option for a certain type of player/group, allowing for simple character builds with a lot of potential for realtime customisation. Including an ability like this in a game is more of a playstyle choice.

 

Toolkittin'! Booshaka!

[ghost-angel]

Re: Power Manipulation Skill

 

Well it is but it specifically does not allow you to keep changing your power in the same way without paying for an upgrade. The idea of this (and it might have been a mistake to even mention the Power Skill) was to allow characters to be built where you can change around what they can do on th efly without necessarily designing everything they can do when you build the character, or re-building every time you think of something. Remember Sindyr?

 

As specifically noted it would be an option for a certain type of player/group, allowing for simple character builds with a lot of potential for realtime customisation. Including an ability like this in a game is more of a playstyle choice.

 

Toolkittin'! Booshaka!

 

To my mind we already have a number of things in place:

VPP

Power Skill

Variable Advantage

Variable Special Effects

 

I'm not sure a relatively cheaper Skill (to the VPP, and possibly to the Advantages depending) actually adds anything to the game.

 

If you want to play a game where Powers have more versatility overall simply expand the current Power Skill, allow Non-Mechanical Tricks for free (shaping a Blast into a hand for an attack for instance), or use the proper Advantages.

 

This is a wheel, IMO, that does not need revisiting.

[tesuji]

Re: Power Manipulation Skill

 

Well let me give you a perhaps better reason for an uplifted power skill -

 

a fairly frequent complaint you see here and there regarding hero is that it is difficult in hero to represent the various "one time tricks" heroes in the comics often use their powers for.

 

Now, can it be done by a determined chargen using variable power pools and such? well yes but then you wind up to reflect the genre with everyone having a chunk invested in a vpp so they can do it and why do it in such a convoluted manner?

 

Instead a power skill that can be bought easily and a set of mechanics for it that allow me to have "fire powers" without needing a ten slot multipower prefigured goes a long way to making "supers like in the comics" a lot more accessible to a more casual player.

 

IE nearly anyone can get "buy a fre bolt and if you wanna do tricks with it buy some power skill" a lot easier and more intuitively than they can get "buy the fire bolt and then put it in a multipower with slots costs, multi or ultra?... "

 

having simple base powers be more flexible in play on the fly reduces the importance of pre-figuring every potential use of the power and makes chargen more intuitive and thus makes the game more accessible.

 

So, for some genre, i feel an uplifted power skill would be a very good change and yes absolutely it might well detract from the current variable advantage and variable power pool but drawing from more convuluted builds to more simple ones is IMo a step in the good.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Power Manipulation Skill

 

I also object to the "it's cheap and so doesn't actually do much" description. IME it's a good option for just those "one time trick" Power uses that tesuji describes above. As I accept HERO's design principal that you get what you pay for and pay for what you get, I'm not bothered by the notion that a character should pay points for an ability that they want to reliably use at any time, although naturally YMMV.

 

I suspect that people sometimes get hung up on the optional guidelines for Power Skill use that Steve Long has included in various books, i.e. smaller percentage of Active Points in the Power that you could change, penalties to the Skill Roll above that percentage, etc. Wherever they appear these are called optional guidelines, so I for one feel no pressure to follow them. As the guidelines weren't in FREd when it first came out I just allowed manipulation of all the Active Points in a Power with a successful Power Skill roll, thought I was doing it the official way, and I and my players had a grand ol' time, with all the flexibility we needed.

 

I should also add that in the tradition of campaign-defined Everyman Skills, I allow all the PCs in my games to have Power Skill with their main set of abilities as an "Everysuper Skill" for free, so that every character can change a Power on 8- (with situational modifiers) without having to buy the Skill.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Power Manipulation Skill

 

Well let me give you a perhaps better reason for an uplifted power skill -

 

a fairly frequent complaint you see here and there regarding hero is that it is difficult in hero to represent the various "one time tricks" heroes in the comics often use their powers for.

 

Do what Lord Liaden did - change the exact mechanics of the current Power Skill to fit the bill.

 

He's right - it's perfect for one time tricks, off the cuff build shifts, or other similar items.

 

It's THERE - it's SIMPLE - run with it.

[tesuji]

Re: Power Manipulation Skill

 

I suspect that people sometimes get hung up on the optional guidelines for Power Skill use that Steve Long has included in various books, i.e. smaller percentage of Active Points in the Power that you could change, penalties to the Skill Roll above that percentage, etc. Wherever they appear these are called optional guidelines, so I for one feel no pressure to follow them. As the guidelines weren't in FREd when it first came out I just allowed manipulation of all the Active Points in a Power with a successful Power Skill roll, thought I was doing it the official way, and I and my players had a grand ol' time, with all the flexibility we needed.

 

 

the problem is, using 5er straight up, the skill is not allowed to add advantages, to remove lims, or to provide combat bonuses - which fairly limit the ability. i mean wanna "fan my firebolt to cover a small area with less damage" with power skill one time? nope. thats adding an advantage.

 

my preference would be for a skill that does exactly what you seem to describe, allows you to effectively rebid those points for a new power effect one time.

 

if you had that, a lot of common hero builds would simplify a great deal which imo is a good thing.

[tesuji]

Re: Power Manipulation Skill

 

Do what Lord Liaden did - change the exact mechanics of the current Power Skill to fit the bill.

 

He's right - it's perfect for one time tricks, off the cuff build shifts, or other similar items.

 

It's THERE - it's SIMPLE - run with it.

 

you can - thats the point of my part in the discussion - how i would like power skill to work.

 

right?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Power Manipulation Skill

 

you can - thats the point of my part in the discussion - how i would like power skill to work.

 

right?

 

I'm sorry - I thought you were advocating creating a new and different Power Skill on top of the one we already have instead of just changing the one we have to do what we want.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Power Manipulation Skill

 

the problem is, using 5er straight up, the skill is not allowed to add advantages, to remove lims, or to provide combat bonuses - which fairly limit the ability. i mean wanna "fan my firebolt to cover a small area with less damage" with power skill one time? nope. thats adding an advantage.

 

my preference would be for a skill that does exactly what you seem to describe, allows you to effectively rebid those points for a new power effect one time.

 

if you had that, a lot of common hero builds would simplify a great deal which imo is a good thing

 

Okay, I can see your concern about that. Although when I can use my ice Energy Blast to create a slick surface under someone's feet, or my Strength to roll a concrete sidewalk into a straitjacket for someone, I don't see that prohibition as limiting as you seem to. Then again, the prohibition against Advantages and Limitations under Power Skill comes with an "except in rare circumstances" escape clause. I consider that part of the "with GM permission" qualifier that the rulebook is sprinkled with, and which Steve Long himself has made repeated use of when he bends his own default rules in published books.

 

For all I know my attitude may be at odds with the majority, but when I see a HERO game mechanic that will do what I want with only some creative interpretation, and doing so isn't flat-out forbidden by the rules (which is very rare under 5E), I feel no qualms over it.

 

I wonder whether permitting a GM to change a default rule to create a specific appropriate effect should be stated in 6E more explicitly as an allowable option even for official, published builds?

[tesuji]

Re: Power Manipulation Skill

 

I'm sorry - I thought you were advocating creating a new and different Power Skill on top of the one we already have instead of just changing the one we have to do what we want.

 

nope you just need one power skill.

 

off the top of my head here is what I would want it to do...

 

apply to all powers a character has of a GIVEN SFX. So if he was a mutant gadgeteer he might have power skill - mutant AND power skill gadgets.

 

i would allow as a half-action skill check effectively rebiding the points in one power for one phase - so your 12d6 Eb could be turned inti an 8d6 eb explosion or a 4d6 rka or so on.

 

the skill roll would take -1 per 10ap being manipulated.

 

so at 3/2 cost and a base stat of 13 you can manipulate a 60 ap power on the fly for say a 12- chance of success (75%) at a cost of 3 for skill plus 12 for +6 = 19 cp.

 

in other words i can for the same price have either:

 

60 ap multipower

6 - 12d6 eb

3 - 8d6 explosion act 12-

3 - 4d6 rka act 12-

3- some other 60 ap power act 12-

 

or i can have

 

60 12d6 eb

15 fire skill at 19- adjusted by -6 for 60 ap

takes half phase to use skill

 

both of these cost 75 cp and frankly they seem rather close to me in net overall effect. the latter adds some more flexibility but always has the half phase hindrance.

 

that would be roughly what i would want power skill to be. fairly simple and few limits beyond normal campaign specs, of course.

 

note i dont include anything about one-time only. As counter-reality as it may sound I might try and reflect the one time power thing by gicving a "first effect" bonus to the roll the first time a new effect is spawned and give some level of power skill as an everyman, where genres suggest such.

[tesuji]

Re: Power Manipulation Skill

 

Okay' date=' I can see your concern about that. Although when I can use my ice Energy Blast to create a slick surface under someone's feet, or my Strength to roll a concrete sidewalk into a straitjacket for someone, I don't see that prohibition as limiting as you seem to. [/quote']

 

i have a principle i when i gm which i call "tesuji's stupid rule" which basically says "if i would feel stupid explaining a rule to my players, I don't use that rule" and me explaining that you can fan your rka to form an ice slick but cannot fan your rka to hit several people because thats adding an advantage while the former is a wholly different power - that would make me feel stupid. the dividing line between "was built with another hero component power" and "was built as an advantaged version of the existing power" isn't one that makes sense to me.

 

so my discretionary use for this would be far from "rare" and would not be thus within the RAW.

 

Now i personally dont give a rats ass about the raw and change it for my games all the time, so this isn't really about me or my games so much as its about getting the raw more useful and to me more easily accessible to people whose main goal is not winning in chargen.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Power Manipulation Skill

 

i have a principle i when i gm which i call "tesuji's stupid rule" which basically says "if i would feel stupid explaining a rule to my players, I don't use that rule" and me explaining that you can fan your rka to form an ice slick but cannot fan your rka to hit several people because thats adding an advantage while the former is a wholly different power - that would make me feel stupid. the dividing line between "was built with another hero component power" and "was built as an advantaged version of the existing power" isn't one that makes sense to me.

 

so my discretionary use for this would be far from "rare" and would not be thus within the RAW.

 

Now i personally dont give a rats ass about the raw and change it for my games all the time, so this isn't really about me or my games so much as its about getting the raw more useful and to me more easily accessible to people whose main goal is not winning in chargen.

 

Yes, that's a fair point. And I think "tesuji's stupid rule" would be worth adopting as a general guideline for any campaign.

 

Of course the specific example of "fanning a rka to hit several people" would just be employing the Spreading Combat Modifier. You can achieve quite a bit of flexibility using existing core maneuvers like Spreading, Sweep/Rapid Fire, Bouncing, Suprise Move, and the like. That doesn't negate the validity of allowing more modifications as part of successful Power Skill use, though.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Power Manipulation Skill

 

The purpose of the original post was to suggest that the Power Skill we have does not cost much and so doesn't do much - and shouldn't - cost and utility have to be related. You can do occasional power tricks that you shouldn't repeat unless you actually buy that ability - and that is my chunkiest problem.

 

The example in the book is using super strength to crush coal into diamond (oh good lord, that wound me up when superman did it...) - a transform - that you can do once but, if you want to do it again, you should spend the points on it.

 

Two problems there: 1. whilst you wouldn't want someone using the power all the time the ability to crush coal to diamond is the sort of thing that can really drive a story, and, applying tesuji's stupid rule (TSR, oddly enough), I don't want to explain to my players how it was a fluke last time and they can't do it again now, even though they are now actually 5 points stronger than last time.

 

2. different powers have different 'upgrade costs': it will be comparatively cheap to change an EB to a slot in a multipower and buy a transform as another slot, to use your gravity ray to collapse coal into diamond, but comparatively expensive to buy a transform to allow your strength to crush coal to diamond as you can't stick your strength in a MP in the same way.

 

Now a 3 point skill is pretty cheap to allow changes to a power, and so the limitations on what you can do are enormous. I'm proposing a more expensive version of the same thing with much less by way of limitations. The cost may be out, but the idea seems sound.

[tesuji]

Re: Power Manipulation Skill

 

Two problems there: 1. whilst you wouldn't want someone using the power all the time the ability to crush coal to diamond is the sort of thing that can really drive a story, and, applying tesuji's stupid rule (TSR, oddly enough), I don't want to explain to my players how it was a fluke last time and they can't do it again now, even though they are now actually 5 points stronger than last time.

 

Note that to me whether or not this hits the TSR issue is a matter of the players and GM. For example, the "one time only" can be viewed as a GENRE-ism, as it happens all the time that superheroes come up with a one time clever fluke power thingy that is never used again. Clark kent did indeed make hisself a diamond out of coal but only to propose to lana and he hasn't done it for real money even when the farm has money woes and mom's campaign needs money etc.

 

so, the notion of one time tricks, that part i can explain as "rules nod to genre" and as such could even see applying a totally non-sensical penalty for repeated use to reflect that genre-ism.

 

but if i was less concerned with genre, then i would share your sense of it and consider the "one time diamond" to be hitting TSR.

 

I tend to agree with you on the notion that a significantly useful power skill would be good, for reasons i have already stated.

 

for my mind on cost, i consider the ability to as an action (half phase) alter a power significantly on the fly wityh a chance of failure, to be roughly equivalent to say having three or so multipower slots. with three to four multipower slots, i can take a typical power and have enough bases covered in terms of "tricks" to have something i can use almost always. the net gain from "but i can have any slot thru the power skill" is to me already into diminished returns especially considering half phase to switch.

 

for a 60 pt power - buying one main slot and three 12- act slots winds up being 78 pts.

 

for a 3 /2 skill and having -1 per 10ap, you wind up paying 60 for whatever power, 3 for the skill at 12- (assumes 13 stat) and 14 for +7 which results in a 12- roll to swap powers around.

 

so you wind up with 78 pts vs 77 pts and that seems darn spot on for me.

 

summary:

 

60 pt multipower with one slot with a 60 pt power and THREE more slots with 60 pt powers with 12- act

 

compares nicely to

 

one 60 pt power with a 19- skill for changing it with a -1 per 10 ap at 3/2 cost.

 

so i think the following...

 

NEW POWER SKILL

this allows you to spend a half phase action to alter and existing power into a power of the same Ap or less of the same sfx. The points may be effectively rebid at the point in question to any power within the sfx permitted by the Gm using reason and common sense. This requires a NEW POWER skill roll at -1 per 10 ap of power affected. While the power may apply to all of a character's powers of a given sfx, each roll can only alter one single power, or a single set of linked powers and so changing several powers will require more actions. This can be used on strength and when doing so figured characteristics are not affected. For some genres, a penalty of an additional -1 each time a given change is made may be appropriate.

the skil costs 3/2

 

 

simple and direct.

 

EDIT: Note that this skill being sfx based in scope will tend to reward in a sense those characters with one unifying sfx for their power suite. this might be preferable to say EC frameworks for gms who want to remove those frameworks.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Power Manipulation Skill

 

I like the reasoning, although I might argue that a better parallel would be a single power VPP, and I'm not necessarily sold on the idea of having a single skill that works for all powers.

 

Where B is the base power cost, a VPP would cost 1/2B for the control cost, we are looking at a class of powers limited to the original sfx, so that would be -1/2. Also you'd have to buy the power skill (for 3 points). You might also add a further limtiation (of a wooly sort): only for occasional dramatic use, which is arguably a version of No Conscious Control, at -1.

 

So: (B/2)/2.5 which reduces to B/5 for an occasional use VPP, on top of which you need to buy the power skill and any levels you need. That might suggest a cost of rather more than 3 points.

 

In fact you could introduce a new framework, which is a sort of specialised VPP build: for B/5 you can manipulate B points with the power skill, or a given sfx, with one of your powers of that sfx being designated the base power to be manipulated.

 

Also I don't like Power Skill being characteristic based. I'd argue that just because someone has a high INT does not mean that his powers are inherently more controllable than someone with a low INT. I'd make Power Skill work from a base 11-.

[tesuji]

Re: Power Manipulation Skill

 

Also I don't like Power Skill being characteristic based. I'd argue that just because someone has a high INT does not mean that his powers are inherently more controllable than someone with a low INT. I'd make Power Skill work from a base 11-.

 

Hmm,,, i was under the impression that power skill was a "determine attribute based on power" where for instance it would be ego based if it were a mentalist and maybe dexterity based for speedster tricks and so forth. Might just be a house rule i used for long enough that it seems like a raw rule.

 

As for the vpp, i would agree with the "of given sfx" with whatever appropriate value for that applies (it varies i think by sfx quite a bit) but the NCC would be a no-go for me since i am not wanting it limited to "infrequent uses" or "dramatic moment" but to be a standard part of the mechanics and design,

 

so that puts the value for a 60 pp power at around 20 pts, 30 control at -1.2 = 20.

 

since my 3/2 with -1 per costs 17 cp, thats close and in the neighborhood compared to 20. basically for a 80 pt option, you can buy the vpp option (60 pt vpp 20 pt sfx control change in non-combat situations) or the power plus skill option (17 pts for skill and 60 pts for a power.)

 

I thought about having it apply to only one power instead of all powers of a given sfx but i rapidly hit one "why bother?" since each power is limited to changes within his sfx, why get worked up over which power he "dials in" to get the new power? if a force field and his eb are of the same sfx, the anything he could do with the force field swapping he could also do with his eb? the key imo is not allowing him to change multiple powers with a single die roll.

 

Now arguably, you might want this skill to allow altering a power as a full phase, moving it more in line with vpp.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Power Manipulation Skill

 

With a VPP you have to buy the Power Skill to manipulate it ON TOP of the control cost though, so it would be Control Cost+ Power Skill Cost for a VPP, making a CC/PS comparison less relevant. (removing NCC would make the calculation B/3, which is effectively shorthand for 'comprehensively manipulatable between adventures or with a Power Skill roll at -1 per 10 points' on any given power)

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Power Manipulation Skill

 

One might also consider a variation on the use of "Heroic Action Points" from Pulp HERO, where one could change a Power in use through expenditure of HAP. Perhaps tie the number of points used to the Active Points in the Power, e.g. 1 HAP per 10 AP. This would be similar to the popular mechanic from Mutants and Masterminds.

 

As Steve Long is considering making HAP part of the core 6E rules, this might be a route worth exploring.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Power Manipulation Skill

 

One might also consider a variation on the use of "Heroic Action Points" from Pulp HERO' date=' where one could change a Power in use through expenditure of HAP. Perhaps tie the number of points used to the Active Points in the Power, e.g. 1 HAP per 10 AP. This would be similar to the popular mechanic from [i']Mutants and Masterminds[/i].

 

As Steve Long is considering making HAP part of the core 6E rules, this might be a route worth exploring.

 

 

Good stuff! If you had a single use VPP, in effect you buy the control cost as a single charge that never recovers, extra phase continuing, limited sfx (-4). That would mean that each 10 points of active power would have a 'control cost' of 1 point. You could spend stored XP (or Hero Points, or whatever) to, on a single use basis, change 10 points in a power to something completely different (but consistent with the power's sfx) for up to 2 phases, using the power skill.

 

Hell that hurts, which explains why it is only done when it NEEDS to be. I like that.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Power Manipulation Skill

 

With a VPP you have to buy the Power Skill to manipulate it ON TOP of the control cost though' date=' so it would be Control Cost+ Power Skill Cost for a VPP, making a CC/PS comparison less relevant. (removing NCC would make the calculation B/3, which is effectively shorthand for 'comprehensively manipulatable between adventures or with a Power Skill roll at -1 per 10 points' on any given power)[/quote']

 

It also takes a full phase (absent advantages) to change the VPP. Perhaps the Power Skill might require a longer timeframe to access that new power and/or impose other limitations.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Power Manipulation Skill

 

Good stuff! If you had a single use VPP, in effect you buy the control cost as a single charge that never recovers, extra phase continuing, limited sfx (-4). That would mean that each 10 points of active power would have a 'control cost' of 1 point. You could spend stored XP (or Hero Points, or whatever) to, on a single use basis, change 10 points in a power to something completely different (but consistent with the power's sfx) for up to 2 phases, using the power skill.

 

Hell that hurts, which explains why it is only done when it NEEDS to be. I like that.

 

Now that is a very clever use of the "Never Recovers" Limitation. I've applied that Lim myself to things other than Charges that a character can expend and then have to invest Experience Points to regain, like Endurance Reserves; but it never occured to me to apply it to the Control Cost of a VPP.

 

You could do the same thing with Naked Advantages, e.g. buy Variable Advantages or Variable SFX as a Naked Advantage large enough for every slot in a Power Framework, with the "Never Recovers" Limitation.

 

Might want to reconsider Charges, though, as that would limit the number of uses per day, and you might want to allow a character to do it more than once if needed and he has the XP. In my games I allowed "Never Recovers" to be applied by itself where that seemed appropriate.