Invisibility

[Golem]

Wouldn't Invisibility to the Touch group mean the same thing as Desolidification? Isn't Invisibility to the Taste group generally useless unless you're some kind of Gingerbread Man-Warrior? And Invisibility to Radio seems mostly like you can't use a radio and have people hear you over it. Is this the gist of it? Because the other senses with Invisibility seem useful legitimately.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Invisibility

 

Other people not being able to feel themselves touching you isn't the same as you not being able to feel yourself being punched in the face by them.

 

So, no.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Invisibility

 

Yes and No. Invisibility:Touch Group means you can't be sensed with the Touch Group, but does not in any way mitigate damage like Desolid does.

 

It's also stated you shouldn't buy this in the book.

 

As for Invisibility to Radio means you can't be detected with anything using the Radio Group (radar for example). Broadcasting is allowed under Invis. - Note that Invisibility:Hearing does not mean you can't be heard if you talk.

[Rapier]

Re: Invisibility

 

All very true.

 

It should also be said that being a 'toolkit' is a strength and a weakness. The system's versatility also means that you can do some rather silly things.

 

Shape Change: Taste

 

Oh boy, now you can taste like a rootbeer float. Now the only problem is getting someone to lick you...well, and having that be somehow useful. That sounds so very Wild Card!

 

Just because a construct may be book legal doesn't necessarily mean that it should be built.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Invisibility

 

All very true.

 

It should also be said that being a 'toolkit' is a strength and a weakness. The system's versatility also means that you can do some rather silly things.

 

Shape Change: Taste

 

Oh boy, now you can taste like a rootbeer float. Now the only problem is getting someone to lick you...well, and having that be somehow useful. That sounds so very Wild Card!

 

Just because a construct may be book legal doesn't necessarily mean that it should be built.

 

Oh I could make good use of shapeshift: taste, believe me

[Kdansky]

Re: Invisibility

 

Now the only problem is getting someone to lick you...well' date=' and having that be somehow useful. [/quote']

 

Your mind is not dirty enough if you think that there is no use to getting licked.

 

Also, I don't think I want to know what Sean would do with a Shapeshift:Taste.

 

 

 

Ridiculous Stuff?

Invisibility with IPE.

Images, IPE.

EDM, Extra Time 5 Minutes, Concentration: This Universe, 2.5 Minutes ago.

[Golem]

Re: Invisibility

 

Now that I think about it... if you had some sort of poison blood or otherwise harmful (removable) body part, you could disguise that taste and kill them. But it only really works for poison-blooded spies who are undercover as cooks...

[Vulcan]

Re: Invisibility

 

Shapeshift: Taste works just fine in a fantasy campaign. Say, PC to tastes terrible to monsters... Now they won't want to continue fighting him after the first bite!

 

And we ran 'Invisibility, Invisible Power Effect' as a social Invisibility. Nothing stops people from actually seeing you, you just get overlooked. In short, no one pays any attention to you.

 

And if it's fully Invisible, then you don't show up on 'Detect Invisible' either. (We actually put an extra +1/4 onto IPE for 'Detect Invisible' for that very reason...)

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Invisibility

 

As memory serves, the rulebook explicitly states that you should take Desolid rather than Invis vs Touch.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Invisibility

 

Technically you more or less need IPE for invisibility to cover the senses that invisibility doesn't, or else, even if you can't be seen you can still be detected by sound or smell or whatever, as it is an END using power. By and large I ignore that as silly.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Invisibility

 

Technically you more or less need IPE for invisibility to cover the senses that invisibility doesn't' date=' or else, even if you can't be seen you can still be detected by sound or smell or whatever, as it is an END using power. By and large I ignore that as silly.[/quote']

 

Invisibility is explicitly exempted from the normal visibility rules for END costing powers. Invisibility itself is for obvious reasons not detectable in and of itself. The character is only detectable by senses their Invisibility doesn't effect, and if there aren't at least three such senses then they are only detectable by as many as are left.

 

 

Also, my memory was correct, the Invisibility rules do specifically state that one should buy Desolid rather than Invisibility to the Touch Sense Group.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Invisibility

 

Wouldn't Invisibility to the Touch group mean the same thing as Desolidification? Isn't Invisibility to the Taste group generally useless unless you're some kind of Gingerbread Man-Warrior? And Invisibility to Radio seems mostly like you can't use a radio and have people hear you over it. Is this the gist of it? Because the other senses with Invisibility seem useful legitimately.

 

Invisibility vs Taste might be useful vs an opponent that has ranged targeting Taste...maybe like some sort of snake sense.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vomeronasal_organ

 

Invisibility vs Radio group generally includes RADAR, HRRP, and RPT. As noted under the "Radio Sense Group" in the rules these senses are practically always bought as part of the Radio Sense Group via the Simulated Sense rules. Radar is targeting, so being invisible vs. it has a combat application. As far Invis vs variations of Radio perception, you could use such an effect to model a super-stealthy communication system, like a cloaked transmitter; remember that the Powers section is used not only for character abilities, but also to model devices.

 

You might want to read the "Enhanced Senses" Power section, and also the Sense Groups section in the Before Combat chapter.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Invisibility

 

Invisibility is explicitly exempted from the normal visibility rules for END costing powers. Invisibility itself is for obvious reasons not detectable in and of itself. The character is only detectable by senses their Invisibility doesn't effect, and if there aren't at least three such senses then they are only detectable by as many as are left.

 

 

Also, my memory was correct, the Invisibility rules do specifically state that one should buy Desolid rather than Invisibility to the Touch Sense Group.

 

Invisibility is not exempted, IIRC*, but there is a special rule that it is not detectable by the senses that it covers. So, for instance, if you have invisibility to sight group, the use of the power is then detectable by two other senses.

 

Now that is not the same as saying that the person using the power is detectable by two other senses, but that the power itself is. Now whilst the rules are a bit open as to sensing sfx, what the rules do specify is that 'observers can see and hear any use of the power', as sight and hearing are usually required senses, plus one other. If theinvisibility is to sight but the use of invisibility is detectable by hearing - not just that the invisible person is detectable by hearing - then it seriously undermines the use of the power.

 

However you define it, the point of visible sfx is that it should be obvious that a power is in use. The same applies for all sense affecting powers that use END.

 

IIRC you are quite right about desolid being the suggested fix for 'touch invisibility' but that seems slightly odd as well, as it has some pretty profound consequences, like making attacking whilst 'touch invisible' impractical, bar handwaving.

 

Hero has a very strange relationship with the touch sense group.

 

 

*And I'm famous for reading what I want to see rather than what is there

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Invisibility

 

Invisibility is not exempted' date=' IIRC*, but there is a special rule that it is not detectable by the senses that it covers. [/quote']

 

The book specifically says its a limited exception. Invisibility itself is not detectable. The character remains visible to any sense they normally would be that they are not Invis against.

 

So, for instance, if you have invisibility to sight group, the use of the power is then detectable by two other senses.

No, the _character_ is visible to all senses they normally would be that they are not Invisible to via the Invisibility power. If the character is Invisible to all but two or one senses after their Invis is taken into account then that is ok -- they don't have to be vis to the standard minimum three senses.

 

SNIP

 

Go re-read the Power write up, and if you still interpret it this way we can discuss.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Invisibility

 

The book specifically says its a limited exception. Invisibility itself is not detectable.

 

No, the _character_ is visible to all senses they normally would be that they are not Invisible to via the Invisibility power. If the character is Invisible to all but two or one senses after their Invis is taken into account then that is ok -- they don't have to be vis to the standard minimum three senses.

 

 

 

Go re-read the Power write up, and if you still interpret it this way we can discuss.

 

 

I'll have a look when I get home and get back to you

[prestidigitator]

Re: Invisibility

 

Note also that there's nothing in the description of Desolidification that implies a desolid character is necessarily invisible to the Touch Sense (though it seems intuitive that the sensation felt when you detect a desolid character through touch might be different from the normal one).

 

EDIT: IOW the "cannot BE TOUCHED" wording doesn't necessarily imply there is no feeling detectable by Touch when you pass through the desolid being/thing.

[tesuji]

Re: Invisibility

 

The book specifically says its a limited exception. Invisibility itself is not detectable. The character remains visible to any sense they normally would be that they are not Invis against.

 

No, the _character_ is visible to all senses they normally would be that they are not Invisible to via the Invisibility power. If the character is Invisible to all but two or one senses after their Invis is taken into account then that is ok -- they don't have to be vis to the standard minimum three senses.

 

 

Actually you seem to have it wrong...

 

5er page 192 right before the little chart

 

"invisibility is a partial exception to the general rules that powers that cost end must be percievable by three sense groups. by, definition, invisibility cannot be percieved by any sense(s) it affects and thus doesn't have to meet the "percievable by three sense groups" rule if it affects so many senses there aren't a total of three left - it only has to be percieved by sense groups it doesn't affect."

 

that doesn't say the "character" but repeatedly refers to the subject being the invisibility power, at least by every grammar rule i know.

 

heck it doesn't even support the contention that if you have invis to sight you only have to cover two groups, as there are more than two left so you still need three.

 

then again the raw and what people actually play are not always similar. I never made invisibility buy ipe for example to be effective.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Invisibility

 

Note also that there's nothing in the description of Desolidification that implies a desolid character is necessarily invisible to the Touch Sense (though it seems intuitive that the sensation felt when you detect a desolid character through touch might be different from the normal one).

 

EDIT: IOW the "cannot BE TOUCHED" wording doesn't necessarily imply there is no feeling detectable by Touch when you pass through the desolid being/thing.

 

I would say it would "imply" it. If you can't be touched, there is nothing for the sense of touch to "feel"

 

Also, Desolid does say the Desolid character has no sense of touch if I recall correctly. The reverse would logically be true as well.

 

Also, Invisibility says for Invisibility vs Touch take Desolid instead.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Invisibility

 

Actually you seem to have it wrong...

 

5er page 192 right before the little chart

 

"invisibility is a partial exception to the general rules that powers that cost end must be percievable by three sense groups. by, definition, invisibility cannot be percieved by any sense(s) it affects and thus doesn't have to meet the "percievable by three sense groups" rule if it affects so many senses there aren't a total of three left - it only has to be percieved by sense groups it doesn't affect."

 

that doesn't say the "character" but repeatedly refers to the subject being the invisibility power, at least by every grammar rule i know.

 

Oh, you're back again.

 

I said:

 

"The book specifically says its a limited exception. Invisibility itself is not detectable. The character remains visible to any sense they normally would be that they are not Invis against.

...

No, the _character_ is visible to all senses they normally would be that they are not Invisible to via the Invisibility power. If the character is Invisible to all but two or one senses after their Invis is taken into account then that is ok -- they don't have to be vis to the standard minimum three senses."

 

In what way does that disagree with the rulebook?

 

Feel free to use every rule of grammar you know.

 

heck it doesn't even support the contention that if you have invis to sight you only have to cover two groups, as there are more than two left so you still need three.

I said nothing of the sort.

[tesuji]

Re: Invisibility

 

Invisibility is explicitly exempted from the normal visibility rules for END costing powers. Invisibility itself is for obvious reasons not detectable in and of itself. The character is only detectable by senses their Invisibility doesn't effect, and if there aren't at least three such senses then they are only detectable by as many as are left.

 

 

 

Shrike

 

what both sean and i are diagreeing with you on is the above statement which seems to state "invisibility is... not detectable in and of itself"

 

The rule for invisibility doesn't say that at all. It simply states that senses covered by the invisibility form an exception.

 

So for example, if i buy an invisibility field - mutant produced - that covers "all sight" then by my reading of the rules it STILL needs, it being the invisibility power itself, to have defined for it three sense groups: say a low humming buzz, an ozoney smell, and a distinctive vibration, to fulfill its "three sense group" rule.

 

 

Or alternatively, as sean started off saying, you could buy IPE for it and remove those groups.

 

do you agree or disagree?

[Armitage]

Re: Invisibility

 

Shape Change: Taste

 

I can see it more as the special effect for other Powers.

e.g. a No Range NND (Defense: Doesn't eat) as you make yourself taste like denatonium benzoate(1) and shove your hand in someone's mouth.

 

(1) Denatonium Benzoate-the most bitter compound currently known to exist on Earth.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Invisibility

 

I would say it would "imply" it. If you can't be touched' date=' there is nothing for the sense of touch to "feel"[/quote']

 

Body heat.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Invisibility

 

Shrike

 

what both sean and i are diagreeing with you on is the above statement which seems to state "invisibility is... not detectable in and of itself"

 

The rule for invisibility doesn't say that at all. It simply states that senses covered by the invisibility form an exception.

 

So for example, if i buy an invisibility field - mutant produced - that covers "all sight" then by my reading of the rules it STILL needs, it being the invisibility power itself, to have defined for it three sense groups: say a low humming buzz, an ozoney smell, and a distinctive vibration, to fulfill its "three sense group" rule.

 

 

Or alternatively, as sean started off saying, you could buy IPE for it and remove those groups.

 

do you agree or disagree?

 

I disagree. Buying IPE for Invisibility is, on the face of it, absurd and counter-intuitive. It would make buying Invis vs a single or small set of senses a rather ill-advised exercise in point wasting from a mechanical / efficiency perspective.

 

The tell-tale for Invisibility isn't a sensory stimuli to three other senses besides the sense(s) Invis applies to, but rather the lack of sensory info presented to the senses Invis does apply to. Invisibility doesn't itself generate additional sensory affects which a character might want to apply IPE to hide like other END costing powers do such as buzzing, ozone-smelling, and so on..

 

So if a character is Invis vs Sight, but not sound, smell, etc then if another character detected their sounds, smells, etc but couldn't SEE them, they could infer invisibility.

 

 

I hate having to make forays into the FAQ, but this is actually covered so might as well include it:

 

How does Invisibility interact with the “must be perceivable by three Sense Groups” rule?

 

Invisibility is an exception, at least in part, to the general rule. By definition, Invisibility cannot be perceived by any Sense(s) it affects, and thus technically doesn’t have to meet the “perceivable by three Sense Groups” rule if it affects so many Sense(s) there aren’t a total of three left. The “perceivable special effect” for it essentially becomes not, “Hey, look where that power’s coming from!” but something more akin to “there’s nothing there based on Sense So-And-So, so someone must be using Invisibility!” For example, if the Invisible Man has Invisibility to Sight Group, you could hear him moving around. Hearing something when you can’t see the source will, at least in some circumstances, clue you in that “someone’s invisible!” — and thus you perceive that the Power is being used.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Invisibility

 

Body heat.

 

"Characters should not normally buy Invisibility to the Touch Sense Group; simulate that ability with Desolidification" -- 5er page 192

 

 

"When Desolidified, a character cannot be touched, does not register on Sonar or Radar, and emits no scent." -- 5er page 147

 

 

 

Seems pretty clear to me.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Invisibility

 

"Characters should not normally buy Invisibility to the Touch Sense Group; simulate that ability with Desolidification" -- 5er page 192

 

 

"When Desolidified, a character cannot be touched, does not register on Sonar or Radar, and emits no scent." -- 5er page 147

 

 

 

Seems pretty clear to me.

 

Bah. All right. If you insist. Cheapo power. Hmph.