Markdoc Posted December 2, 2008 Report Share Posted December 2, 2008 Re: Sword and sorcery That's what I was thinking - the ultimate hero's archvillain I suppose, since you can't even think of taking Him on directly and destroying Him (well, you can think of it if you're Teatime, but Teatime was batshit crazy - not to mention being in a completely different world facing a different Death.) So there were quite a few adventures in which a personified Death was actively trying to kill Fafhrd and Mouser, but even those are stand-alone stories. Yeah, but in those stories, Death hardly comes across as an arch-villain: he's more a sporting type, consistently giving our heroes a chance to escape, rather than just saying "Nyah! You're dead, so shut up" - though it is clearly indicated that he could, if he chose. And he doesn't have any nefarious plans. I'd say that the presence of a recurring antagonist does not make something NOT Sword and Sorcery' date=' but it's a feature of Sword and Sorcery that it doesn't NEED a recurring villain. The emphasis is on short, self-contained stories.[/quote'] Agreed. Thoth-Amon was mentioned, but he really doesn't feature that much (the Phoenix on the sword is his only real appearance: he's mentioned in two other stories, IIRC). Technically speaking, you could have a recurring villain in a S&S setting if you wanted to: S&S shares many a feature with pulp-era adventures and recurring villains are a pulp staple. The main reason not to, IMHO is that S&S stories tend towards grey zones with regard to the main characters' morality. The stories are typically about footloose swordsmen seeking their fortune, or exiled princes seeking revenge, not shining paladins facing off against the ultimate evil. A recurring villain, pretty much by definition sets a clearer moral boundary: if he's the villain and the PCs are continually set in opposition to him, they more or less have to be heroes. You could do it, though - if the antagonist is - say - the head of the thieves' guild and our heroes are an independant pack of rogues, or the villain is an evil noble (a la the Sheriff of Nottingham) and our heroes are wolfheads and highwaymen. But by and large I agree with Lucius - S&S stories don't need a recurring villian or even an over-arching plot. They need some loot, a mcGuffin or two and some deadly and possibly fatal dangers. cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevilInSatin Posted December 3, 2008 Report Share Posted December 3, 2008 Re: Sword and sorcery Hey, I have no set opinion about arch-villains, in S&S or anywhere else. I just wondered why he said he couldn't have one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L. Marcus Posted December 3, 2008 Report Share Posted December 3, 2008 Re: Sword and sorcery when in doubt - Macguffin Hunt! Send 'em after something, no arch-nemesis needed. Just obstacles. My bolding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Admiral C Posted December 3, 2008 Report Share Posted December 3, 2008 Re: Sword and sorcery . . . I'm having some flashbacks to one Yyrkoon . . . Wasn't he in a number of Elric stories? Does he count as an arch-villain' date=' or a foil?[/quote'] I always thought Hwaamgaal from Pang Tang was Elric's primary re-occurring foe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted December 3, 2008 Report Share Posted December 3, 2008 Re: Sword and sorcery I always thought Hwaamgaal from Pang Tang was Elric's primary re-occurring foe. WHO? Theleb K'aarna comes from Pan Tang, and recurs in the stories, I believe. A google search for hwaamgaal produced 1 hit, which indicates this is a location in d20 Elric. Maybe it's also a location in the stories? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susano Posted December 3, 2008 Report Share Posted December 3, 2008 Re: Sword and sorcery WHO? Theleb K'aarna comes from Pan Tang, and recurs in the stories, I believe. A google search for hwaamgaal produced 1 hit, which indicates this is a location in d20 Elric. Maybe it's also a location in the stories? Yes he does. And I've never heard of hwaamgaal (and have read quite a bit of Elric). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Obvious Posted December 4, 2008 Report Share Posted December 4, 2008 Re: Sword and sorcery Hwamgaarl is the capital of Pan Tang. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted December 4, 2008 Report Share Posted December 4, 2008 Re: Sword and sorcery The palindromedary points out that just because Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser never see Sheelba and Ningauble as recurring villains, doesn't mean the reader can't..... My thanks to the palindromedary; I could not remember those names. Oh, and the palindromedary is right; this reader (at least) did consider them, if not villains, certainly not F&GM's friends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Admiral C Posted December 4, 2008 Report Share Posted December 4, 2008 Re: Sword and sorcery WHO? Theleb K'aarna comes from Pan Tang, and recurs in the stories, I believe. A google search for hwaamgaal produced 1 hit, which indicates this is a location in d20 Elric. Maybe it's also a location in the stories? Oops, I copied and pasted the wrong thing. Gee, I've only read 90% the stories, recall most of the story when he helped end the world fr Chaos, own the Pang Tang sourcebook, and keep my old copy of "Dieties and Demigods" because of the Elric pantheon and I can't remember the *(*$&@!s name! Aaargh! I'm sure Hwaamgaal is in the Pang Tang sourcebook, I have it packed up (the Chaosium book not d20) but I remember a large amount of it consisted of detailing the city. It was going to be my model for Ravenshaunt in Valdorian Age if the players ever went there which is appropriate as Thune (or whatever they were called in VA and not TA) was probably inspired by Pang Tang. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susano Posted December 4, 2008 Report Share Posted December 4, 2008 Re: Sword and sorcery *sigh* I used to have the Dieties and Demigods with Elric.... I sold it for $70.00. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Obvious Posted December 5, 2008 Report Share Posted December 5, 2008 Re: Sword and sorcery *sigh* I used to have the Dieties and Demigods with Elric.... I sold it for $70.00. That sigh is why I rarely sell my stuff...at least the stuff I have ever had any interest in. I can't get my wife to understand, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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