The Geas Effect

[Katherine]

What Limitation value would be recommended for a very powerful Mind Control ability (along the lines of 15+ dice) but that could only ever be used once anyone in their lives.

[Lucius]

Re: The Geas Effect

 

Elaborate please.

 

Do you mean, a given person may only be the subject of this power once in their life?

 

Or, a given person may only impose this power on a given subject once in their life?

 

Or, a given person may use the power more than once, but on different people each time; and a given person may be subject to the power more than once but only if it is not the same person imposing it each time?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromeary effect

[Katherine]

Re: The Geas Effect

 

The character can only use their Mind Control on a target once; from that time on the target is totally immune to it whether the Mind Control is successful or not. There is no limit to the number of times the power can be used within certain period of time like Charges however.

[braincraft]

Re: The Geas Effect

 

Depends on how smart you're allowed to be about it. If you're like Lulu, (I am making the reasonable assumption, here, that you have just watched Code Geass and want to port it to HERO) you can just geass people into being your eternally loyal slaves, which makes the limitation moot; it hardly matters if you only get one wish if you wish for more wishes. Of course, Lulu also has problems with implanting ill-conceived imperatives into targets that he might need something from in the future.

 

If you nixed the cheapness of creating instant brainslaves via Geass, I'd call it a -1 at least.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: The Geas Effect

 

The "brain-slave" issue might not be as dangerous as it would seem at first glance, since MI allows for repeated "break out" rolls and trying to get someone to do anything contrary to their phy lims and such will increase the chance of breaking out by even more.

[Psylint]

Re: The Geas Effect

 

Easiest way, I think.

 

Major Mental Transform xd6, turns target into target with psychological limitation "Geas, that is a single task that the target pursues with Total and Compulsive Commitment". Healing method "Instantaneous upon completion of task."

 

Suggested limitations and advantages:

Limited target humans -1/2

All or Nothing -1/2

Target becomes immune to any further Geas attempts by same caster forever -1

Improved Target Group +1/2 "Broad range of tasks"

 

 

"Broad range of task" All tasks must be discrete, concrete, objectively verifiable and physically possible for the target to perform in his/her lifetime." Examples: "Walk from New York City to Los Angeles" is valid. "Find true love" is not. Negative tasks are generally impossible unless time limited. Examples "Never hit a woman" is not valid, because you could not verify compliance until the target died. "Do not hit a woman for 100 years" is valid.

 

You could add Based on ECV if you chose, Requires Skill roll, etc. etc. to taste.

[Katherine]

Re: The Geas Effect

 

The character can only use their Mind Control on a target once; from that time on the target is totally immune to it whether the Mind Control is successful or not. There is no limit to the number of times the power can be used within certain period of time like Charges however.

 

I should add that the commands given have to be fairly discrete. They can be complicated but not open ended like "Obey me now and forever". Generally we don't allow that effect for Mind Control in our game and use with the Mental Transform or a an Advantage.

[Katherine]

Re: The Geas Effect

 

Depends on how smart you're allowed to be about it. If you're like Lulu' date=' (I am making the reasonable assumption, here, that you have just watched Code Geass.[/quote']

 

What's Code Geass?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The Geas Effect

 

I think this power needs some more definition; there are a number of things to understand about Mind Control in HERO. For one, it degrades over time; almost NOTHING in the game is absolute. And I don't think you can Transform someone into a Follower. Second, sure, you can build the power with the limitation, "Can only target a single individual once, regardless of success (-1)" but that's HIGHLY setting dependent.

 

For example, in a Supers campaign, where the bulk of the people you meet are supers and super-villains, you blow it on a super-villain and the power is hyper nerfed. However, if you're in one of my settings, which are heroic level, and you've got a near endless supply of guards and warriors and whatnot, the limitation is meaningless. While I would agree that -1 is the right VALUE, I'm not clear as to the intent of the design.

 

In other words: I hear what you're saying, but I don't "get it."

[nexus]

Re: The Geas Effect

 

I think this power needs some more definition; there are a number of things to understand about Mind Control in HERO. For one' date=' it degrades over time; almost NOTHING in the game is absolute. And I don't think you can Transform someone into a Follower. [/quote']

 

Technically, the only thing a Follower is an NPC you paid points to be able to design yourself. How much control the player has over them is up to the Gm and game in question. Some GM treat Followers like Duplicates other don't. But you can Transform someone into a "Mind slave" IOW: The same character with: "Psych Lim: Obeys controlling character (Com Total) or however you choose to phrase it.

 

The power being requested here doesn't appear to be an Absolute since failure was mentioned. It just can only ever be used once against a target ever.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The Geas Effect

 

But Transforms heal back over time; the default is at X BODY per day or somesuch. But even a Transform does heal back (or should, canonically).

[nexus]

Re: The Geas Effect

 

But Transforms heal back over time; the default is at X BODY per day or somesuch. But even a Transform does heal back (or should' date=' canonically).[/quote']

 

Physical Transforms heal like Body Damage (mental ones are vs Ego) Rec in Weeks OR they can have a reversal condition that reverses them. In the case of Mental Transforms that condition is commonly that someone applies a similar power to undo the change.

[nexus]

Re: The Geas Effect

 

In any case I think the Limitation for this ability is probably at least -1. The player can be clever with it but it's pretty nerfed. Blunt Force Mind Controls have an annoying tendency to fail unless directed against particularly low Ego targets.

[Katherine]

Re: The Geas Effect

 

I think this power needs some more definition; there are a number of things to understand about Mind Control in HERO. For one, it degrades over time; almost NOTHING in the game is absolute.

 

I'm not asking for absolute effect. Aside from what was mentioned the power works exactly like it does regularly.

 

And I don't think you can Transform someone into a Follower.

 

I didn't say anything about that. I said we don't used Mind Control as an effect to create long term loyal subjects but prefer to use Mental Transforms to give the target the appropriate Psychological Limitations. AFAIK, there is nothing mechanically wrong with that.

 

While I would agree that -1 is the right VALUE, I'm not clear as to the intent of the design.

 

The intent of the design is a powerful Mind Control ability that can only be used once a target ever regardless of it succeeds or fails. It cannot be used to create servants or issues commands like "Obey me forever" but could be used to for discrete if complicated commands "Drive me to your home" "Tell me the password" or "Bring me this particular document". "Kill them all" would be acceptable but "Kill them all, then copy these files to disk and then kill yourself." wouldn't be. The command must be something the target can understand and is physically able to do even if it does take time. "Go to China" for example would work for a somewhat silly example. Cleverness and wiggle room orders would be judged on a case by case basis.

 

The setting is occult/horror where the PCs and their primary opponents will be members of psychic/magical cabals seeking world domination, knowledge and other agendas for themselves and their respective groups.

[braincraft]

Re: The Geas Effect

 

"Broad range of task" All tasks must be discrete' date=' concrete, objectively verifiable and physically possible for the target to perform in his/her lifetime." Examples: "Walk from New York City to Los Angeles" is valid. "Find true love" is not. Negative tasks are generally impossible unless time limited. Examples "Never hit a woman" is not valid, because you could not verify compliance until the target died. "Do not hit a woman for 100 years" is valid.[/quote']

 

By your criteria, "Punch yourself until you die" is also valid. No amount of caveats or documentation can possibly make a power like this both broadly useful and narratively 'safe'.

 

Mind Control and similar powers are going to be abused; that's a fact. If you're not comfortable with that, you shouldn't be allowing it in your games.

 

The Death Note has similar problems; try looking those threads up and seeing how they dealt with this sort of thing.

[Psylint]

Re: The Geas Effect

 

Braincraft,

 

1. It's not my campaign, just my off the cuff attempt to make a power for someone else.

 

2. I think you and I have a different meaning attached to the term discrete. But any kind of influence power is going to have to be continually subject to the Mark 2.0 GM BS-detector. I agree with you that far.

 

Personally, I tend to agree with you that Geas effects are subject to abuse. I wouldn't allow them in a game I GM'ed because of all the headaches it's likely to cause me.

 

P.S. There can be no such thing as a fact of a future event, as the future has not yet, and may never happen. But that's just a quibble. Certainly there are examples where such effects have been abused, particularly when the GM doesn't exercise a lot of control.

 

Cheers

[Katherine]

Re: The Geas Effect

 

Off topic: How do you get those neat formatted character sheets to show up on the board?

[Katherine]

Re: The Geas Effect

 

Aubry Degeneris

Player: 

Val	Char	Cost
8	STR	-2
12	DEX	6
17	CON	14
10	BODY	0
15	INT	5
18	EGO	16
20	PRE	10
20	COM	5

4	PD	2
4	ED	1
3	SPD	8
5	REC	0
40	END	3
36	STUN	13

6"	RUN	0
2"	SWIM	0
1 1/2"	LEAP	0
Characteristics Cost: 81

Cost	Power
25	Geas Effect: Mind Control 18d6 (Human class of minds), Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) (112 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses almost all of its effectiveness (Can only be attempted Once Per target; -2), Limited Power Power loses about half of its effectiveness (Physical Contact required; -1), Limited Power Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness (Discrete Orders only; -1/4), Does Not Provide Mental Awareness (-1/4)

Training
10	1)  Mental Shroud: Invisibility to Mental Group , No Fringe (20 Active Points); Requires A Skill: Psi Manipulation Roll  (-1/2), Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (Lockout: Mental Powers; -1/2)

8	2)  Mental Bond: Mind Link , Specific Group of Minds: Her Cabal, Any distance, No LOS Needed (25 Active Points); Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (0 DCV; -1), Extra Time (1 Minute, Only to Activate, -3/4), Costs Endurance (-1/2)

Equipment
9	1)  Mind Spike Chakra Gem: Ego Attack 4d6 (40 Active Points); 4 Charges (-1), IAF Fragile (-3/4), Requires A Skill: Psi Manipulation Roll  (-1/2), Costs Endurance (-1/2), Increased Endurance Cost (x2 END; -1/2)
Powers Cost: 52


Cost	Skill
5	Acting 14-
3	Bureaucratics 13-
5	Computer Programming 13-
5	Conversation 14-
11	Concealment 16-
5	Deduction 13-
3	KS: Demonology 12-
3	KS: Psychic Events 12-
2	KS: Occult History 11-
3	Language:  Latin (completely fluent)
3	Language:  Greek (completely fluent)
9	Lockpicking 14-
5	Power 14-
7	Security Systems 14-
5	Seduction 14-
3	Shadowing 12-
7	Stealth 13-
5	+1 with Interaction Skills
3	TF:  Common Motorized Ground Vehicles, Equines
4	WF:  Common Melee Weapons, Small Arms
6	+3 with 9mm Handgun
5	+1 with DCV
5	+5 with Geas
Skills Cost: 112

Cost	Perk
5	Money:  Well Off
Perks Cost: 5


Total Character Cost: 250

Pts.	Disadvantage
20	Psychological Limitation:  Casual Killer (Common, Total)
15	Psychological Limitation:  Disdains Direct violence, physical coward (Very Common, Moderate)
10	Social Limitation:  Subject to Orders (Frequently, Minor)
10	Distinctive Features:  Psionic Aura (Concealable; Always Noticed and Causes Major Reaction; Detectable By Simple Tests)
15	Susceptibility:  Physical Interrogation (encoded sucide programing) 1d6 damage per Phase (Uncommon)
5	Unluck: 1d6
Disadvantage Points: 75
Base Points: 175
Experience Required: 0
Total Experience Available: 0
Experience Unspent: 0

[Sean Waters]

Re: The Geas Effect

 

Well, for comparative costing:

 

'Never Recovers' on a charge is an additional -2, so it has to be at least that, but not as much as -4, which is what you'd get for a single charge that never recovers, so somewhere between -2 and -3 3/4, probably -2.

 

Don't worry about 'be my slave forever' commands because they are hard to get to stick. Even at 15d6, averaging 52 points, you'd need EGO+30 for a 'do whatever I tell you' command, which if only 12 points over a normal's EGO+30, which means they have an excellent chance of breaking out within a few minutes.

 

That is one of the factors in my apparently generous limitation value - one of the ways you maintain control is re-application - which you can not do with this particular limitation.

[Katherine]

Re: The Geas Effect

 

Updated Aubrey. We decided to increase the point max for the campaign. Thanks for the help everyone!