Problem with Drain/Suppress. Explain please.

[hammersickle59]

I just got done building a power that drains a persons speed. One version I used Suppress and the other version I used Drain. Suppress was half the cost.

My problem is this. I modified Suppress to work almost exactly like Drain and it was still much cheaper. I can't imagine any drain type of effect that shouldn't use a suppress to achieve, as it will always be just as powerful, but cheaper cost, than Drain. The two builds are below.

 

Suppress Time (1): Suppress Speed 15d6 (75 Active Points); 1 Recoverable Continuing Charge lasting 1 Minute (-1/2), Others Only (-1/2), Spell (-1/2), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) Real Cost: 23 pts

 

Drain Time (1): Drain SPD 15d6 (150 Active Points); Others Only (-1/2), Spell (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) Real Cost: 60

 

Note: This is even with leaving the Ranged advantage out of the Drain build, which means suppress is both more powerful cause its ranged and because its half the cost. Also, If I changed the durations to be the same (using continous charges) This would only hurt the ratio even further because its more expensive for Drain time to have a delayed recovery rate, than it is for the continous charge to have a longer duration.

 

Additional Note: I'm using "Recoverable continuing charge" to set durations for spells in my setting. It takes "mana" (END Reserve) to cast them also. They can be cast as much as you want, as long as you have the mana. I'm using "recoverable" to represent that (i.e. recovering mana while resting). Allowing the above suppress to be used more than once a day may be whats offsetting the cost. Thoughts? FRED says "Generally a character should not be allowed to use Recoverable Charges to simulate Charges that return to him on a quicker than once-per-day basis, but the GM can allow this if he thinks its appropriate". I did think it was appropriate and convenient (to set durations) but now I might have a problem on my hands with the above example.

 

On a side note; any other ideas for setting durations without using continous charges?

 

Dean

[Sean Waters]

Re: Problem with Drain/Suppress. Explain please.

 

If you want to do a cost comparison you need to model like for like. Suppress costs END anyway, so 'costs END to activate' should be an advantage not a limtiation and I'd remove the continuing recoverable charge and replace it with Uncontrolled, or limit the drain so you can only have it working one at a time.

 

I certainly would not allow 'others only' on an attack power like this - it is OK if you would WANT to use it on yourself - not otherwise.

 

Having said all of that I do think that Suppress is a bit over powerful and, for most purposes, is a cheaper version of drain.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Problem with Drain/Suppress. Explain please.

 

Your Suppress has a cap - it can be applied more than once to a target but will always cap out at 90 Active Points of suppression. Suppress gains a Cap whenever you add things like Continuous or Continuous Charges.

 

Your Drain does not have a cap - you can keep on draining forever and ever.

 

 

As for Durations - as Sean said - Continuous & Uncontrolled can create specific Durations.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Problem with Drain/Suppress. Explain please.

 

On a side note; any other ideas for setting durations without using continous charges?

 

Dean

 

You can also use Lingering Effect for this, I think... It's in FH.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Problem with Drain/Suppress. Explain please.

 

If you want to do a cost comparison you need to model like for like. Suppress costs END anyway, so 'costs END to activate' should be an advantage not a limtiation and I'd remove the continuing recoverable charge and replace it with Uncontrolled, or limit the drain so you can only have it working one at a time.

 

I certainly would not allow 'others only' on an attack power like this - it is OK if you would WANT to use it on yourself - not otherwise.

 

Having said all of that I do think that Suppress is a bit over powerful and, for most purposes, is a cheaper version of drain.

 

 

Actually, once the Charges Limitation is put on Suppress the power is 0 END by default and Costs END to Activate becomes a legal Limitation.

 

I agree about the use of 'Others Only'.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Problem with Drain/Suppress. Explain please.

 

Suppress Time (1): Suppress Speed 15d6 (75 Active Points); 1 Recoverable Continuing Charge lasting 1 Minute (-1/2), Others Only (-1/2), Spell (-1/2), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) Real Cost: 23 pts

 

Drain Time (1): Drain SPD 15d6 (150 Active Points); Others Only (-1/2), Spell (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) Real Cost: 60

 

Note: This is even with leaving the Ranged advantage out of the Drain build, which means suppress is both more powerful cause its ranged and because its half the cost. Also, If I changed the durations to be the same (using continous charges) This would only hurt the ratio even further because its more expensive for Drain time to have a delayed recovery rate, than it is for the continous charge to have a longer duration.

 

First off, I agree that "others only" is an irrelevant limitation. We should add the same recoverable continuing charge and costs END only to activate to the Drain, as well as make it ranged. So we get:

 

Suppress Time (1): Suppress Speed 15d6 (75 Active Points); 1 Recoverable Continuing Charge lasting 1 Minute (-1/2), Spell (-1/2), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) Real Cost: 27 pts

 

Drain Time (1): Drain SPD 15d6, Ranged (225 Active Points); 1 Recoverable Continuing Charge lasting 1 Minute (-1/2), Spell (-1/2), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) Real Cost: 81

 

Now, how do they differ?

 

First, the drain keeps going indefinitely. After one minute, assuming a SPD 3 caster, the target's speed is reduced by about 768 character points [5 turns x 3 phases per turns x 3.5 per die, less 4 recoveries of 5 points each]. It will be a long time before he gets to move again. The Suppress ends as soon as END stops being paid. I think an extra 28 minutes or so of maintaining that 0 SPD carries some value. This implies the power keeps doing damage every phase.

 

Second, and this is my vision only, I consider 0 END Suppress a lot like 0 END mental powers. It costs 0 END to fire it, but you don't have the option of spending END to maintain it. So your Suppress will roll 15d6 when it hits. On the next phase, it will stop suppressing (no END is being paid to maintain it), but the charge continues, so it can be fired again. In this case, I would be inclined to consider the Suppress to be fired once, then cost no END to maintain the Suppress, but a bad roll means the target still has some SPD left.

 

Third, unless I misrecall, a continuous charge allows the power to keep being used throughout the period of the charge. I don't believe it also allows the power to keep doing damage without another roll to hit and attack action. That requires both the Continuous and the Uncontrolled advantages, respectively. Adding those advantages to both powers (+1 1/2, I believe), we get a cost of 68 to the Suppress and 163 for the Drain.

 

But a whole minute of Draining is vast overkill. You need the whole minute for the Suppress, as it ends as soon as the Suppress stops.

 

Finally, 0 END Suppress is noted in the rules as something a GM should consider very carefully, so I can see where your GM may reject the "only to activate" as having the same potential for abuse.

 

SIMPLE POINT BALANCE: xd6 Suppress, 1 recoverable charge continuing for 1 minute (-1/2), Costs END (-1/2) should not provide a -1 limitation for a Suppress which is identical to a Suppress with no limitations, except that it can only be maintained for a minute.

 

One other difference - if I Dispel the power used, the Suppress stops working immediately, but the Drained points must recover normally, at 5 points per turn. After 1 turn of Drains, the target is down 153 character points of SPD (again assuming a 3 SPD caster) and is still out of the fight for several turns. The Suppressed character is back as soon as the Dispel succeeds.

 

Additional Note: I'm using "Recoverable continuing charge" to set durations for spells in my setting. It takes "mana" (END Reserve) to cast them also. They can be cast as much as you want' date=' as long as you have the mana. I'm using "recoverable" to represent that (i.e. recovering mana while resting). Allowing the above suppress to be used more than once a day may be whats offsetting the cost. Thoughts? FRED says "Generally a character should not be allowed to use Recoverable Charges to simulate Charges that return to him on a quicker than once-per-day basis, but the GM can allow this if he thinks its appropriate". I did think it was appropriate and convenient (to set durations) but now I might have a problem on my hands with the above example.[/quote']

 

A recoverable charge generally can't be used on anyone else until it is recovered. I think what you have is an Uncontrolled Continuous power which has a time restriction as the "reasonable way to shut off the power".

 

15d6 Continuous, Uncontrolled, 0 END anything is very high AP and can reasonably be expected to cost a lot of points.

[Tom]

Re: Problem with Drain/Suppress. Explain please.

 

Your Suppress has a cap - it can be applied more than once to a target but will always cap out at 90 Active Points of suppression. Suppress gains a Cap whenever you add things like Continuous or Continuous Charges.

 

{...snip...}

 

It does? Cite please.

 

My reading of 5er only indicates that adding Continuous to Suppress means it can 'attack' the same target for additional effect w/o needing another Attack Roll (pg 289)

 

(I've a PC in my FtF game with a Continuous Suppress, it doesn't get used very often -- I'd prefer to use it correctly... ;D)

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Problem with Drain/Suppress. Explain please.

 

Here's a more accurate comparison that comes pretty close to the same cost.

 

33 STOP! (Drain Variant): Drain SPD 3d6+1 (standard effect: 10 points), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Ranged (+1/2), Continuous (+1) (99 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Minute (-1), Spell (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) [1 cc]

 

29 STOP! (Suppress Variant): Suppress SPD 3d6+1 (standard effect: 10 points), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Continuous (+1), 32 Continuing Charges lasting 1 Minute each (+1) (59 Active Points); Spell (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) [32 cc]

 

I did not use a Costs END Limitation due to the interaction of Charges with Suppress as outlined below.

 

Relevant rulings from the FAQ:

 

With a Continuous Suppress, does the END cost to maintain it increase each Phase?

 

With most powers, applying Continuous converts a Power into a Constant Power that the character can maintain Phase after Phase by continuing to pay END. Since Suppress is already Constant, the effect of applying Continuous to it is to let the attacker use it to affect the target again and again and again, without having to make an Attack Roll or use an Attack Action. That means each subsequent “use” of Suppress is a new attack — just one the character gets to make without the need for roll or Action. He still has to pay END separately to make/maintain each Phase’s Suppress effect. While the overall END cost can be decreased using Reduced Endurance, there’s no way to stop the “accumulation” from occurring.

 

Example: Technique has a Suppress Machine Powers 2d6, all Machine Powers simultaneously (+2), Continuous (+1) (40 Active Points; costs 4 END per use) power that she uses to shut down devices. The first Phase she uses it, it costs her 4 END. The next Phase it costs her 4 END (to maintain the first Phase’s effect) + 4 END (for the second Phase’s “new” attack). The third Phase it increases to 12 END (4+4+4), and so on.

 

 

If a character buys a Suppress (or Succor) that’s Continuous, and has Continuing Charges, does the power consume an additional Continuing Charge every Phase it remains active, or does one Continuing Charge suffice to keep it going for the duration of the Charge? What if they’re Fuel Charges?

 

It uses one Continuing Charge per Phase (regardless of the Charge’s duration), or 1 second’s worth of a Fuel Charge, unless the GM rules otherwise. In particular, the GM may sometimes wish to charge a character more than 1 second’s worth of a Fuel Charge to maintain game balance.

[schir1964]

Re: Problem with Drain/Suppress. Explain please.

 

It does? Cite please.

 

My reading of 5er only indicates that adding Continuous to Suppress means it can 'attack' the same target for additional effect w/o needing another Attack Roll (pg 289)

 

(I've a PC in my FtF game with a Continuous Suppress, it doesn't get used very often -- I'd prefer to use it correctly... ;D)

You are correct Tom, Suppress and Succor have no Cap on them so a character can attack over and over again against the same target increasing the effect of the power. However, my understanding was that you still had to make an attack roll, since you are continuing the previous effect by paying END and every additional attack requires additional END expenditure to maintain.

 

Addendum: Yes, adding continuous onto Suppress/Succor does remove the additional attack roll requisite.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[ghost-angel]

Re: Problem with Drain/Suppress. Explain please.

 

Merf, I have been mistaken by my own House Ruling in games where adjustment powers are common! Dang.

 

Yeah, no Cap on the Suppress with 0END/Continuous Charges. Though each "Suppression" takes a new charge on top of the Charge already active.

[hammersickle59]

Re: Problem with Drain/Suppress. Explain please.

 

Thanks guys,

 

I didn't know about the ruling of "consuming additional charges". That would be a reason why drain is still valid.

 

Dean

[Kdansky]

Re: Problem with Drain/Suppress. Explain please.

 

You found one of the balance issues of 5th: Suppress is alot better than Drain in nearly all scenarios. Which is a bit sad, since it adds an important mechanic (pay while active). Also, drain/suppress speed is utterly broken usually. I never allow it, period.

 

12d6 Suppress Speed, no advantages or limitations. Fire it once in segment 12 and your opponent is at -4 speed for the rest of the fight, which won't be long, since you can just pound him to dust now. Yes, you do pay an outrageous 36 end (assuming you are speed 6 and you can't take him down in less than 5 phases with a spreaded (he is very likely to try to dodge) EB to do KB, followed by a Haymaker against a 1/2 DCV target), but it is incredibly effective.

 

12d6 Suppress STUN: Hey look, it's AVLD EB for free!

 

I hate suppress

[Doc Samson]

Re: Problem with Drain/Suppress. Explain please.

 

While I agree Suppress (and to some extent Succor) are very potent, what levels of Power Defense are you guys seeing in your campaigns? It is common in my campaign for players to have 20+ pts. of Power Defense (350 pt. characters/ 60 AP attacks). This makes adjustment power attacks aside from Suppress almost useless unless my villains spend 1/3 or more of their points on just one power. As a GM, I use Suppress as a "go to" power for villains who I want to have an effective Power Defense exotic attack without having 100+ AP attack powers. Thoughts?

[Kdansky]

Re: Problem with Drain/Suppress. Explain please.

 

While I agree Suppress (and to some extent Succor) are very potent' date=' what levels of Power Defense are you guys seeing in your campaigns? It is common in my campaign for players to have 20+ pts. of Power Defense (350 pt. characters/ 60 AP attacks). This makes adjustment power attacks aside from Suppress almost useless unless my villains spend 1/3 or more of their points on just one power. As a GM, I use Suppress as a "go to" power for villains who I want to have an effective Power Defense exotic attack without having 100+ AP attack powers. Thoughts?[/quote']

 

For me, this looks like a typical arms race problem: If everyone only uses Drain, 5-10pts of Power Defense are fine. But the first encounter with a Suppress teaches everyone that 10 pts are not nearly enough, and everyone starts stacking it. And as soon as people have 20, you can can Drain (6d6 without Range or other advantages barely reach those 20, let alone do anything meaningful). Which again shows how lousy Drain (not to speak of Transfer) compares to Suppress. I only allow suppress with one caveat: You have to split up the effect on multiple stats, and those stats should synergize badly, just to reduce the strength of the effect. And even then, I'm far from happy with it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Problem with Drain/Suppress. Explain please.

 

While I agree Suppress (and to some extent Succor) are very potent' date=' what levels of Power Defense are you guys seeing in your campaigns? It is common in my campaign for players to have 20+ pts. of Power Defense (350 pt. characters/ 60 AP attacks). This makes adjustment power attacks aside from Suppress almost useless unless my villains spend 1/3 or more of their points on just one power. As a GM, I use Suppress as a "go to" power for villains who I want to have an effective Power Defense exotic attack without having 100+ AP attack powers. Thoughts?[/quote']

 

I don't see power defense at near those levels. In our group, typically a character might have one of the three exotic defenses (Flash, Mental or Power).

 

The fact Suppress shuts off if END stops being paid weakens it somewhat. However, I think Suppress should be made consistent with other adjustment powers and be No Range by default. Hopefully, 6e will review the adjustment powers and make some effort at better consistency between them. To me, the only difference between Drain and Suppress at their base level should be that Suppress ends when the user stops paying END.

 

To some other comments, any adjustment power that affects speed can be quite powerful. Try a 12d6 SPD Aid, Self Only, costs END for the same 60 points that 12d6 SPD Suppress would cost. Or make it 12d6 SPD Succor. Bumping your SPD up 4 points is also quite effective.

 

12d6 STUN Suppress isn't the same as an AVLD - the STUN comes back instantly when you stop paying END. However, I agree the comparison falls off. 60 AP = 4 1/2d6 AVLD Power Defense or 4d6 Ranged Stun Drain. I'd call those reasonably comparable. 12d6 is too much to Suppress by comparison. Make Suppress no range by default (just like Drain) and it drops to 8d6 Ranged Suppress, which seems much more in the ballpark.

[tesuji]

Re: Problem with Drain/Suppress. Explain please.

 

To some other comments, any adjustment power that affects speed can be quite powerful. Try a 12d6 SPD Aid, Self Only, costs END for the same 60 points that 12d6 SPD Suppress would cost. Or make it 12d6 SPD Succor. Bumping your SPD up 4 points is also quite effective.

 

sorry but 60 cp for the aid to speed seems likel a waste.thats about 42 cp of gain.

 

instead buy +4 speed with something like "cost end to activate -1/4 for 32 cp and then spend the extra 28 cp on say POWER DEFENSE.

 

sure the aid has a potential of +7 speed (and also the potential of +1 speed) but the practicality is +4 speed will be the normal result.

 

aid self only is almost never good unless bought to multiple multiple traits.

[hammersickle59]

Re: Problem with Drain/Suppress. Explain please.

 

I agree that its cheaper to buy speed as a power with lim's than it is to buy AID speed. However, I think its more in the spirit of the system to build it using AID. Thats what the AID power is meant for. Also, somewhere in FRED it says "if you can build a power multiple ways, the most expensive is probably the correct way". Not an exact quote mind you, but something to that extent.

 

Dean

[Kdansky]

Re: Problem with Drain/Suppress. Explain please.

 

Self Only is totally mispriced, especially for Aid. Aid is incredibly good in a group setting (I had to step in yesterday when someone did not much else than DEX-aiding which nearly broke the combat), and horrid on self use, since you pay ~6.5 points per 1d6, which is just plain bad. Self Only on Aid should be in the -2 vincinity, after all, you lose about 80% of effectiveness in a 5 player-setup.

 

My preferable solution would be: Take Ranged off ALL attack powers (even EB and KA) for consitency, and then reprice them accordingly. But that is 6th talk.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Problem with Drain/Suppress. Explain please.

 

sorry but 60 cp for the aid to speed seems likel a waste.thats about 42 cp of gain.

 

instead buy +4 speed with something like "cost end to activate -1/4 for 32 cp and then spend the extra 28 cp on say POWER DEFENSE.

 

sure the aid has a potential of +7 speed (and also the potential of +1 speed) but the practicality is +4 speed will be the normal result.

 

aid self only is almost never good unless bought to multiple multiple traits.

 

2 uses of that Aid = +7 SPD, 70 points, but I agree that self only Aid is vastly overpriced, just as Kdansky says. Remove Self Only from that Aid, Costs END and pay an extra 20 points and now we can use four actions to have a team of four with +4 SPD or a pair of characters with +7 SPD.

 

Aid is typically vastly overpriced compared to extra characteristics (with or without some limitations) or vastly underpriced compared to extra characteristics (purchased UBO and/or purchasing multiple characteristics, especially with slow fade rates).

 

Aid was largely neutered in 5e due to problems in 4e. It lost the ability to heal lost characteristics, and was bumped up in price (although not doubled since it became 0 END and invisible in the process). But advantages allowing for multiple abilities aided at once with slow fade rates makes more complex Aid constructs much more cost-effective.

 

So adding 4d6 to STR, 4d6 to CON, 4d6 to DEX and 4d6 to BOD costs 40 points each. Choosing any one of the four costs 50 points, where a multipower of the four would cost 56 points. Adding to all four at once costs 80 where having all four powers separately, with all Linked (-1/2) would cost 107.

 

Buying +24 STR, +12 CON, +8 DEX and +12 BOD would cost 96 points, would have no fade rate and require no actions to implement, plus you get Figured's. Making them UBO would gradually increase the cost, of course, but requiring actions to add these stats would reduce that cost.

 

Of course, Aid becomes far more cost-effective if the target is subject to NCM - if that character already had a 20 STR, 20 CON, 20 DEX and 20 BOD, just buying the added stats costs 192 points instead of 96 points - that Aid is starting to look like a better deal!

 

I've convinced myself that Aid needs to be reworked from the ground up for 6e, based on the manner in which characteristics will work. Crossposted to 6e.