Free equipment side discussion.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Free equipment side discussion.

 

Like I said buying the damage reduction power for characters works just fine for me but if someone wants slightly variant rules by genre ,works for me.

[Diamond Spear]

Re: Free equipment side discussion.

 

Yes but having a 2D6 killing attack generated by a weapon being applied differently depending on who fires the weapon is a huge departure from the HERO System rules. It goes right into that arbitrary area of “because we say so” that many of us left other systems to get away from. Also, unlike other optional rules that “stack” onto the basic combat system, this is a fundamental change with far reacing consrequences. Add to that the fact that it does not work in reverse, and it becomes even more arbitrary. So while it might work just fine as an unofficial house rule for a particular campaign I don’t see it ever being incorporated as an “official” rule.

[jtelson]

Re: Free equipment side discussion.

 

Yes but having a 2D6 killing attack generated by a weapon being applied differently depending on who fires the weapon is a huge departure from the HERO System rules. It goes right into that arbitrary area of “because we say so” that many of us left other systems to get away from. Also' date=' unlike other optional rules that “stack” onto the basic combat system, this is a fundamental change with far reacing consrequences. Add to that the fact that it does not work in reverse, and it becomes even more arbitrary. So while it might work just fine as an unofficial house rule for a particular campaign I don’t see it ever being incorporated as an “official” rule.[/quote']

 

Isn't arbitrary a binary state? Anyway scale isn't so much a "because we say so" as a "because we've seen this in the source material"

 

Besides it's not really a departure. Similar things exist in the system as written.

 

Bob and Eddie both train all their lives to be Olympic Gymnasts, Bob is capped at a 20 Dex; Eddie who throws on a costume and goes out at night fighting or commiting crimes can buy his as high as he likes.

 

The idea of Normal vs Superheroic already exists in the system. Codifying an optional rule regarding character scale isn't really off the reservation.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Free equipment side discussion.

 

Yes, but that concept comes both from genre conventions (Supers have higher DEF, Force Fields, etc) and from the mechanics. A ... what, Competent Normal is 25/25? And a Super is 200/150? Just from a raw construct perspective, the idea of a Normal injuring a Super is fairly 'out there,' but there are plenty of characters who can be harmed by conventional weaponry. They're survivability is because they are, first, the heroes of the story, and second, because they have, you know.

 

Super Powers.

 

Again; I'm not saying this wouldn't work for a very specific ... whaddya call it? Bronze? Silver Age? campaign. I'm saying this does not seem like a reasonable application of RAW and ultimately not a question for the System (HERO) but for the genre (Champions).

[jtelson]

Re: Free equipment side discussion.

 

The difference between Superheroic and Heroic rules are commonly discussed as part of the system and though the superheroic genres would be a common application of scale there are a number of other genres where scale would be appropriate. Ninja Hero and some versions of Pulp Hero spring immediately to mind, pretty much anything with Mooks of any flavor. Something that might have use across multiple genres certainly falls under System.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Free equipment side discussion.

 

Isn't arbitrary a binary state? Anyway scale isn't so much a "because we say so" as a "because we've seen this in the source material"

 

It's not what I've seen in the source material. Roy Harper leaps into action, dodging and weaving, and is unhurt by mobsters' machine gun fire. But a scared punk waiting behind a door pumps several bullets into his chest and he is severely wounded, nearly killed. Seems to me that he was just as affected by that normal with a gun as anyone else when the conditions of his defensive powers failed, despite being a Justice Leaguer.

 

If I wanted such a feel in a specific game, I would impose it using the existing rules as much as possible. I might provide an EverySuper power of Damage Reduction against whatever I wanted weakened in this fashion. But then I have to define it. Does this mean all attacks by non-supers, or all attacks by normal weapons, or something else? How do I want VIPER blasters to be affected, for example, or SuperGuns fired by a DNPC?

 

Alternatively, and more likely, I would use existing rules to define it - any Super has the EverySuper power 50% damage reduction vs weapons with Real Weapon limitation. Even here, I'll have to make some judgement calls. Does shining a bright searchlight or throwing sand in someone's face count as a "real weapon", so the flash is halved? Is being struck by lightning, dused by chemicals or burned in a bonfire a "real weapon"?

 

But, as much as possible, I'd use the existing rules. A new rule is needed only where the existing rules cannot be made to do the job. Here, they can, effectively and easily. As such, adding a new rule only adds complexity for minimal benefit, and should, in my opinion, be avoided.

 

Bob and Eddie both train all their lives to be Olympic Gymnasts' date=' Bob is capped at a 20 Dex; Eddie who throws on a costume and goes out at night fighting or commiting crimes can buy his as high as he likes.[/quote']

 

If Bob and Eddie are both normal humans, they both pay double to exceed 20. If neither is a normal human, they buy it normally. Bob could be a "non-normal" human who has chosen not to use his powers to fight crime. Eddie could be a normal human who has chosen to emulate his crime fighting idol. If they are both PC's, they will both, or neither, have Normal Char Max, depending on the game. Major NPC's will follow the same rule. Just as all PC's and major NPC's would have 50% Dam Red vs real weapons, if I so decided.

 

The idea of Normal vs Superheroic already exists in the system. Codifying an optional rule regarding character scale isn't really off the reservation.

 

No, the idea that some rules vary between games already exists. If your house rule works for you, more power to you. But it is not needed as an oficial rule, any more than "all mystics get astral projection for free" is needed as a rule. Now, if there were a SETTING where this rule made sense, I'd be quite happy to see that setting book say "In this setting, all Supers (with a definition of what a Super is, either including or excluding all PC's) have 50% damage reduction vs normal attacks (with a definition of a "normal attack"). The rule that "the rules are subject to variance as suits the game" is quite sufficient.

 

You know what? We already have a rules-codified "strata of characters" in the Classes of Mind rules. And that rule also needs to be DITCHED in favour of setting-specific rules modifications where appropriate.

[Vulcan]

Re: Free equipment side discussion.

 

Yes but having a 2D6 killing attack generated by a weapon being applied differently depending on who fires the weapon is a huge departure from the HERO System rules. It goes right into that arbitrary area of “because we say so” that many of us left other systems to get away from. Also' date=' unlike other optional rules that “stack” onto the basic combat system, this is a fundamental change with far reacing consrequences. Add to that the fact that it does not work in reverse, and it becomes even more arbitrary. So while it might work just fine as an unofficial house rule for a particular campaign I don’t see it ever being incorporated as an “official” rule.[/quote']

 

Fair enough. I can see where that would be a really big problem for some people.

[jtelson]

Re: Free equipment side discussion.

 

It's not what I've seen in the source material. Roy Harper leaps into action' date=' dodging and weaving, and is unhurt by mobsters' machine gun fire. But a scared punk waiting behind a door pumps several bullets into his chest and he is severely wounded, nearly killed. Seems to me that he was just as affected by that normal with a gun as anyone else when the conditions of his defensive powers failed, despite being a Justice Leaguer.[/quote']

 

If the above description was the only type of superheroic experience written and their weren't other genres that also have or sometimes have an apparent stratification of power levels (Ninja Heros, Super Spies, Pulp), then your point would be well taken.

 

Actually that description is, I think, presicely the issue that an optional scaling rule is intended to address.

 

 

 

 

If I wanted such a feel in a specific game, I would impose it using the existing rules as much as possible. I might provide an EverySuper power of Damage Reduction against whatever I wanted weakened in this fashion. But then I have to define it. Does this mean all attacks by non-supers, or all attacks by normal weapons, or something else? How do I want VIPER blasters to be affected, for example, or SuperGuns fired by a DNPC?

 

Alternatively, and more likely, I would use existing rules to define it - any Super has the EverySuper power 50% damage reduction vs weapons with Real Weapon limitation. Even here, I'll have to make some judgement calls. Does shining a bright searchlight or throwing sand in someone's face count as a "real weapon", so the flash is halved? Is being struck by lightning, dused by chemicals or burned in a bonfire a "real weapon"?

 

But, as much as possible, I'd use the existing rules. A new rule is needed only where the existing rules cannot be made to do the job. Here, they can, effectively and easily. As such, adding a new rule only adds complexity for minimal benefit, and should, in my opinion, be avoided.

 

This is the kind of response I assume the original poster was hoping for. Here are the issues, here's how I'd do it instead. Applying free damage reduction based on power level does pretty much what the original poster described.

 

1 level Difference: 50%

2 level Difference: 75%

3 level Difference: 87.5%

4 level Difference: 93.75%

etc seems a bit silly at that point

 

If Bob and Eddie are both normal humans' date=' they both pay double to exceed 20. If neither is a normal human, they buy it normally. Bob could be a "non-normal" human who has chosen not to use his powers to fight crime. Eddie could be a normal human who has chosen to emulate his crime fighting idol. If they are both PC's, they will both, or neither, have Normal Char Max, depending on the game. Major NPC's will follow the same rule. Just as all PC's and major NPC's would have 50% Dam Red vs real weapons, if I so decided.[/quote']

 

This very much demonstrates my apparently poorly expressed point that the system already codifies a difference between Super and Non-Super or as you put it Normal and Non-Normal. It does so within a single expression of the rules (Thus after you have selected the rules to use for a campaign the distinction and rules applications persist) and has rules that are applied differently between the two sets.

 

No' date=' the idea that some rules vary between games already exists. If your house rule works for you, more power to you. But it is not needed as an oficial rule, any more than "all mystics get astral projection for free" is needed as a rule. Now, if there were a SETTING where this rule made sense, I'd be quite happy to see that setting book say "In this setting, all Supers (with a definition of what a Super is, either including or excluding all PC's) have 50% damage reduction vs normal attacks (with a definition of a "normal attack"). The rule that "the rules are subject to variance as suits the game" is quite sufficient..[/quote']

 

The original poster (rreay) saw a situation where the rules didn't necessarily simulate the genre in the way he was looking for and so he suggested adding a more specific tool to the box. An optional rule that applies scale to equipment. You seem to feel that the kit is adequate as is (Oddly I'm usually the guy going the kit works fine stop trying to cram more bits into it) which is fine, but do you really think "all mystics get astral projection" is as prevelant across Heroic and Superheroic genres as "Thugs and Mooks aren't a threat even in numbers" is?

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Free equipment side discussion.

 

I think one of the best arguments against such an optional rule has already been stated and is simply this: Almost, if not all, existing optional rules "stack" onto the RAW. This would not. It would drastically change the RAW and would take up a significant amount of space if placed in the core rule book rather than in the few genres where it would be most applicable. It is not simply a matter of "adding more specific tool to the box." "An optional rule that applies scale to equipment" could be very useful, especially if you want to avoid rolling massive amounts of dice, but it would change combat and interaction between various types of characters at a core level, changing the entire dynamic of how the Hero System works, from character creation, through game play. While this may be acceptable, or maybe even desirable in some games or genres, the fact that something extremely similar can be simulated using the RAW, makes this fall so far into the realm of "house rules" that I don't see it ever being legitimized, even as an optional rule, regardless of its "good points" or how much I (or anyone else) like the idea for certain settings.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Free equipment side discussion.

 

One of the best reasons for the change, IMO of course, to be in the main rulebook is that it is a tool that would be very useful for cross-genre campaigns or adventures.

 

It does stack on top of all the other tools, its just that some GMs will not use it in their games.

 

If it was to be anywhere then I would have the core aspects in the main rulebook with more fleshed out stuff in the genre books - it would work well in SF with big ships versus characters etc, in Fantasy with Giants and other large races and possibly in pulp for aliens that do not seem to get hurt like real people do, or for giant insect invasions...or undead.

 

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Free equipment side discussion.

 

If the above description was the only type of superheroic experience written and their weren't other genres that also have or sometimes have an apparent stratification of power levels (Ninja Heros, Super Spies, Pulp), then your point would be well taken.

 

Actually that description is, I think, presicely the issue that an optional scaling rule is intended to address.

 

Others in the JLA have purchased defenses that always work, so they are always bulletproof. Adopting this option and applying it in the manner you suggest indicates some PC's get the benefits and others do not.

 

In my view, they shouldn't get it for free by having a different strata (to adopt your term, which seems a good one). How much does Superman pay to be at a higher strata, or Roy Harper recover by being of a lower strata? The costs should be commensurate with the benefits. The easiest way to have those costs be commensurate with the benefits is to shell out the points for the benefits (50% Dam Red, P & E, only vs Real Weapons). Or do players roll on a chart to determine strata and the lucky ones get a huge extra benefit? This same issue is why the RAW don't allow PC's to be a class of mind other than human. We don't need a "class of body" system to go along with this.

 

Having established different strata within the PC's, however, how wide are the variances? There are powerful beings beyond Superman and Daxamites. Let's call them Strata 1. Supes is as good as it gets otherwise, so he's Strata 2. Now, what strata are:

 

- Martian Manhunter, Captain Marvel, Power Girl and Wonder Woman (at or near Supes' level)

- Red Tornado, Captain Atom and Firestorm (superpowered; unusual physical specimen)

- Aquaman, the Atom, Elongated Man, Plastic Man, Vixen and Flash (superpowered, but focused superpowers)

- Green Lantern, Hawkman, Hawkgirl and Rocket Red (device powered humans)

- Black Canary, Black Lightning, Fire, Ice, and Zatanna (minor superpowers with no impact on defenses)

- Batman, Mister Miracle and Blue Beetle (well trained normals)

- Green Arrow and Red Arrow (normal guys with unusual weaponry)

- a Checkmate agent

- a trained and experienced police officer or FBI agent

- a noncombatant character (Jimmy Olsen, Oberon, Sue Dibny)

- a child (Mary Batson pre-powers, Traya, Lian Harper)

 

How many strata? How do they interact? Do those of lower strata suffer reduced damage for their innate powers, strength, martial arts and unusual gadgetry, or only for "normal weapons"? Are GA and RA's base arrows "normal weapons"? Are fists normal weapons? Does this vary depending on whether they are backed up with martial arts?

 

Show me a working example of this optional rule using an array of the above characters (choose a JLA lineup from history, for example, plus the lower power levels) where all the characters are PC's to emulate the source material, and are balanced to provide game balance for all characters.

 

This very much demonstrates my apparently poorly expressed point that the system already codifies a difference between Super and Non-Super or as you put it Normal and Non-Normal. It does so within a single expression of the rules (Thus after you have selected the rules to use for a campaign the distinction and rules applications persist) and has rules that are applied differently between the two sets.

 

The typical differentiation in this regard is "PC and noteworthy NPC" vs "normal guy". Only one set of rules typically applies to player characters.

 

but do you really think "all mystics get astral projection" is as prevelant across Heroic and Superheroic genres as "Thugs and Mooks aren't a threat even in numbers" is?

 

Yes. A group of thugs, in sufficient numbers, have proven a threat to many Supers, except those whose powers prevent the mooks/thugs from having any impact. Batman has ben brained by a 2x4 when caught by surprise. Red Arrow has been shot. Green Arrow and Black Canary have ben hospitalized by gang beatings. Green Lantern has been tied to a log sinking in yelow muck, rendered utterly helpless. Lots of these characters have been threatened by thugs and mooks.

 

Some characters are designed such that thugs are not a threat. Superman's defenses are too high, for example. But most of the characters described above can be taken by surprise or overwhelmed with sheer numbers, and have been in the source material.

 

One of the best reasons for the change, IMO of course, to be in the main rulebook is that it is a tool that would be very useful for cross-genre campaigns or adventures.

 

It does stack on top of all the other tools, its just that some GMs will not use it in their games.

 

Point differences and differences in use of points does the trick just as well. A fantasy hero wizard with enough xp to match a 350 point Super in points will likely have effective attacks, but his limitations will still catch up with him. A 75 + 75 wizard will clearly have much more difficulty.

 

it would work well in SF with big ships versus characters etc' date=' in Fantasy with Giants and other large races and possibly in pulp for aliens that do not seem to get hurt like real people do, or for giant insect invasions...or undead.[/quote']

 

Now I'm really seeing "classes of Body". Sorry, your PC can't have any of these advantages, but I will provide them for free to opponents I want to be tougher than you. That way, I can pretend they are built on the same points you are, despite having given them an extra 50 or 100 points of free abilities. Why?

 

If these alternate strata are only available to NPC's, then they can just buy the powers needed to simulate these extra abilities - NPC's have as many points as the GM needs to let them fulfill their purpose.

 

If they are also available to PC's, there must be some balancing factor, or the game becomes "Top Strata Guy and his Comic Relief Comrades". Or no one chooses a lower strata, because that's like choosing to have 50+ points less than your teammates.

[tarragon]

Re: Free equipment side discussion.

 

A big thank you to jtelson who I can't rep again without spreading the love and who is defending my idea better that I could. But I do want to add a little bit to the discussion I started.

 

Yes but having a 2D6 killing attack generated by a weapon being applied differently depending on who fires the weapon is a huge departure from the HERO System rules.

 

It's not who fires it, it's the definition of what the gun is. Is the gun made with not well understood super tech at a high cost (points)? Or is it made with well understood milling technology and sold at Walmart?

 

Gun guy firing that Walmart rifle is different because because he's a super hero who has trained for years hit vulnerable spots (and he paid points).

 

To me this is no more arbitrary than a campaign where the PCs and the villains they face don't have to worry about Normal Characteristics Maximum but the normals in the world around them do.

 

It's no more arbitrary than the advice I've seen on the boards (and in one of the books maybe) to not even bother tracking stun for Mooks. Just have them drop when they take a good hit.

 

It goes right into that arbitrary area of “because we say so” that many of us left other systems to get away from. ... Add to that the fact that it does not work in reverse' date=' and it becomes even more arbitrary.[/quote']

 

This scaling idea was developed to add a specific feel to a campaign. It's explicitly not same as just adding more points to the supers. If you had identical feel going up and down the scale levels you might as just add points and have them up their defenses and attack DCs. I wanted to make mooks less of a threat, but still a threat in numbers. And do this without making supers unable to interact with them.

 

I also didn't want more points inflation. As I said before, by pure power levels it doesn't feel like the X-Men are a lot more points than the New Mutants, but the they are significantly better in some ways that are dealt with by writer fiat and not by points.

 

But it isn't following a rule' date=' it's a very specific campaign type limitation. ... Sure. But as a broad spectrum application? Oh, heck no.[/quote']

 

In general I agree. The full concept of scaling power levels should NOT apply to all campaigns.

 

But maybe an aspect of it should. I introduced the idea here as a proposal for a more specific problem that's been getting a lot of text about it in the 6th edition forums. How do you deal with free equipment in some campaigns[1]. This system applied a little narrowly to real weapons is one potential solution to that; at least in the superhero genre.

 

In fact Hugh's write-up is a better way of applying this to narrowly just supers and normal equipment.

 

Alternatively, and more likely, I would use existing rules to define it - any Super has the EverySuper power 50% damage reduction vs weapons with Real Weapon limitation. Even here, I'll have to make some judgement calls. Does shining a bright searchlight or throwing sand in someone's face count as a "real weapon", so the flash is halved? Is being struck by lightning, dused by chemicals or burned in a bonfire a "real weapon"?

 

This is a better way of applying the idea to the narrow problem of free equipment. The question is, is this narrower focus useful for the free equipment discussion?

 

[1] The problem appears to basically be that the weapon familiarity and skill levels need to use and the contacts needed to get a powerful item are a lot cheaper than to buy that item with points. This also leads to problem with returning weapons and Foci after they have been taken away when they have been bought in different ways and it gets into meta play issues like: "how come when we lose our equipment Bob (who paid points) is always seems to find a rifle to buy first, even though he's got the worst interaction skills and least money out of all of us (who use free equip)?"

[Diamond Spear]

Re: Free equipment side discussion.

 

Let me try addressing this through some possible in game situations. Assume that all characters meet the level of points required to be one step up the scale and that all of them have been struck by a 2D6 Killing attack from a gun with the Real Weapon Limitation and that the damage rolled was 6 BODY 18 STUN

 

Situation 1: A character has their resistant defense bought through a force field (which is normally 20 PD/ED) but they are struck with the force field down. How much damage do they take?

 

Situation 2: A character has all of their powers bought Only in Hero ID (in hero ID they have a resistant defense of 20 PD/ED) and is struck while in normal ID. How much damage do they take?

 

Situation 3: A character has purchased no resistant defenses at all. How much damage do they take?

 

Hopefully your answers will make things a bit clearer for me as far as how the rule will effect actual gameplay.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Free equipment side discussion.

 

1) They take 6 BODY 18 STUN

2) They take 6 BODY 18 STUN

3) They take 6 BODY 18 STUN

 

This is arguably how it should be. Anything else is a house rule.

[Diamond Spear]

Re: Free equipment side discussion.

 

1) They take 6 BODY 18 STUN

2) They take 6 BODY 18 STUN

3) They take 6 BODY 18 STUN

 

This is arguably how it should be. Anything else is a house rule.

 

I was, in fact, asking the OP how much damage they would take under his house rule.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Free equipment side discussion.

 

I know, I was being snarky. Sorry...

[Diamond Spear]

Re: Free equipment side discussion.

 

I know' date=' I was being snarky. Sorry...[/quote']

 

I figured, but then I figured hey if snark is on the menu……..LOL. It’s no problem.

 

I am looking forward to his answers though.

[tarragon]

Re: Free equipment side discussion.

 

Aw geez. I take a day off to play L4D and my thread gets all covered with snark. You have to watch these things like a hawk.

 

Assume that all characters meet the level of points required to be one step up the scale

 

I didn't intend it to be done that way. It's not that 75 point characters do full effect to 250 point characters and half to 350 point characters.

 

It's part of the definition of the campaign. The PCs are superheroic characters because the campaign defines them that way. The cops are normals and the Viper agents are normals carrying super-level guns. Someone mentioned this idea in another thread, Viper agents carry blasters because assault rifles suck against supers.

 

Anyway, moving on...

 

Situation 1 and 3: 3 Body 9 Stun. They have 0 resistant defense to this attack but damage is halved for being a level up the scale. Still a good hit, but not life threatening.

 

Situation 2: (Only in hero ID) That's a good question because I don't know the answer. If we say the damage is halved because he's a scale level up then he's always scaled up and no one can ever be taken by surprise. If I say full then characters change scale based on state.

 

Thinking about it a bit I'm going to say full damage 6 Body, 18 Stun.

 

I'm going to extend the idea a little bit; Scale differences go away with surprise and when not in Heroic ID. That would model a comic booky situation where the hero can get knocked out by a sap to the back of the head by a thug who surprises him but once the hero recovers and is ready for it then it's impossible for that thug and his 10 friends to win.

 

This also lets us handle Hugh's Speedy [1] example:

It's not what I've seen in the source material. Roy Harper leaps into action' date=' dodging and weaving, and is unhurt by mobsters' machine gun fire. But a scared punk waiting behind a door pumps several bullets into his chest and he is severely wounded, nearly killed.[/quote']

I don't know if you're referring to a specific situation or a generality. I had to look up who Roy Harper is, so I don't know if this is a specific situation from his past. But in this case and my system the punk got him by surprise. The scaling goes away and Roy goes down.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Free equipment side discussion.

 

There are two different discussions going on here. Some people are talking about the OPs suggestion, a genre specific scale that further differentiates "Supers" from "Normals." When it has been pointed out that this is very genre specific and should be included, if anywhere, in a genre book, others have piped up and pointed out how many other uses it has and that it should be in the main rules. I may be stating the obvious, but I wanted to point it out because some earlier posters seemed to be talking past each other.

 

As far as a “superhero scale” goes, that sounds like it could work. I see absolutely no need for it, since supers often have 5 to 6 times the points of the mooks they face, and 10 points of rDEF (which would take most of a 2d6K using Standard Effect, in other words, most guns) is really not that expensive. It sounds like a great house rule, I can see campaigns where it could add to the feel the GM is looking for, but it certainly doesn’t make it into the realm of core-rule-book optional rules.

 

As far as the, “we can use scale for anything,” approach, where to start? If it is not only an optional rule, but the scale has to be defined specifically by each GM, then no two groups of gamers using the “Optional Character Scale” rules will ever be able to join in a single campaign without redefining the very world both groups played in. People have argued that it is easily stackable with the other optional rules. I disagree. Most of the optional rules are fairly, if not very, well predefined; especially the optional combat rules, (which this scaling would seem to most affect). Hit Locations can be easily added to combat in virtually any genre and the options for bleeding or tracking wounds can be easily “stacked” onto that. Differing levels of unpaid for defense simply does not stack onto the existing rules with ease, particularly if there is no standard to the scale.

[Diamond Spear]

Re: Free equipment side discussion.

 

Aw geez. I take a day off to play L4D and my thread gets all covered with snark. You have to watch these things like a hawk.

 

 

 

I didn't intend it to be done that way. It's not that 75 point characters do full effect to 250 point characters and half to 350 point characters.

 

It's part of the definition of the campaign. The PCs are superheroic characters because the campaign defines them that way. The cops are normals and the Viper agents are normals carrying super-level guns. Someone mentioned this idea in another thread, Viper agents carry blasters because assault rifles suck against supers.

 

Anyway, moving on...

 

Situation 1 and 3: 3 Body 9 Stun. They have 0 resistant defense to this attack but damage is halved for being a level up the scale. Still a good hit, but not life threatening.

 

Situation 2: (Only in hero ID) That's a good question because I don't know the answer. If we say the damage is halved because he's a scale level up then he's always scaled up and no one can ever be taken by surprise. If I say full then characters change scale based on state.

 

Thinking about it a bit I'm going to say full damage 6 Body, 18 Stun.

 

I'm going to extend the idea a little bit; Scale differences go away with surprise and when not in Heroic ID. That would model a comic booky situation where the hero can get knocked out by a sap to the back of the head by a thug who surprises him but once the hero recovers and is ready for it then it's impossible for that thug and his 10 friends to win.

 

This also lets us handle Hugh's Speedy [1] example:

 

I don't know if you're referring to a specific situation or a generality. I had to look up who Roy Harper is, so I don't know if this is a specific situation from his past. But in this case and my system the punk got him by surprise. The scaling goes away and Roy goes down.

 

Considering your answers than I have to ask what determines the “scale” since given your answer to situation #2 it doesn’t seem to be based on total character points? What then is the determining factor? If it simple the definition of the characters as “superheroes” than shouldn’t the person in situation #2 take half damage since they are still defined as a “superhero”?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Free equipment side discussion.

 

I didn't intend it to be done that way. It's not that 75 point characters do full effect to 250 point characters and half to 350 point characters.

 

It's part of the definition of the campaign. The PCs are superheroic characters because the campaign defines them that way. The cops are normals and the Viper agents are normals carrying super-level guns. Someone mentioned this idea in another thread, Viper agents carry blasters because assault rifles suck against supers.

 

How do we determine whether foci are super level or normal level? If a VIPER agent (normal) can carry super level equipment (blasters) shouldn't a Gunbunny PC (Super) be carrying normal level weaponry (his guns)? This doesn't seem as obvious or clear cut as it did.

 

Anyway, moving on...

 

Situation 1 and 3: 3 Body 9 Stun. They have 0 resistant defense to this attack but damage is halved for being a level up the scale. Still a good hit, but not life threatening.

 

Situation 2: (Only in hero ID) That's a good question because I don't know the answer. If we say the damage is halved because he's a scale level up then he's always scaled up and no one can ever be taken by surprise. If I say full then characters change scale based on state.

 

Thinking about it a bit I'm going to say full damage 6 Body, 18 Stun.

 

I'm going to extend the idea a little bit; Scale differences go away with surprise and when not in Heroic ID. That would model a comic booky situation where the hero can get knocked out by a sap to the back of the head by a thug who surprises him but once the hero recovers and is ready for it then it's impossible for that thug and his 10 friends to win.

 

Again, that depends on the character. Taking Superman by surprise has never seemed to have a lot of impact. It threatens his secret ID more than anything else. The characters who get KO'd by being taken by surprise seem to be those whose defenses are some combination of good DCV (useless when caught by surprise) and combat luck (ditto), rather than a change in state.

 

On the one hand, I can see the OIHID limitation meaning you switch back to non-super form. But what if OIHID applies to only some of the character's powers, such that he is a Super, but a lesser one, outside Hero ID?

 

This also lets us handle Hugh's Speedy [1] example:

 

I don't know if you're referring to a specific situation or a generality. I had to look up who Roy Harper is, so I don't know if this is a specific situation from his past. But in this case and my system the punk got him by surprise. The scaling goes away and Roy goes down.

 

Red Arrow was shot early in the current JLA book. He was clearly caught by surprise (so no combat luck and poor DCV). I may be misrecalling, but it seems to be he was in costume, so he was in Hero ID, but was not expecting to be attacked.

 

If that changes your state, then normals should always try to ambush Supers when they're costumed up (since they're easier to locate that way, and they don't get that free damage reduction any more).

 

Related to this, why don't more powerful characters get a similar advantage if they surprise the Super? That also seems to happen in the comics - "You caught me off guard once, EvilHeart - but now I'm ready for you!" Recalling that an attack out of combat by surprise equates to doubled damage, there is already provision for this in the rules. Now normals get quadruple damage against Supers.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Free equipment side discussion.

 

A HUGE part of this problem is the "stun lotto". When a killing attack rolls high damage and a x5 stun multiplier, it just does way too much stun. As mentioned above, you can have enough rPD that a 9mm pistol can never, ever do body to you, and still get KOed by a single lucky shot.

 

Thought one: fix the stun lotto. Even capping it at x4 would be an improvement.

 

Thought two: this is a bit complex, so bear with me. The way I do it, at least for a supers campaign, revolves around the Real Weapon limitation: when someone with UNreal defenses is hit by an attack from a Real Weapon, and they have enough DEF to stop the maximum Body--then they just ignore the attack completely.

 

This allows supers to shrug off attacks from small arms, while police with their Real Armor vests still have trouble with them, and supers still have trouble with superweapons and superpowers.

[jtelson]

Re: Free equipment side discussion.

 

Others in the JLA have purchased defenses that always work, so they are always bulletproof. Adopting this option and applying it in the manner you suggest indicates some PC's get the benefits and others do not.

 

In my view, they shouldn't get it for free by having a different strata (to adopt your term, which seems a good one). How much does Superman pay to be at a higher strata, or Roy Harper recover by being of a lower strata? The costs should be commensurate with the benefits. The easiest way to have those costs be commensurate with the benefits is to shell out the points for the benefits (50% Dam Red, P & E, only vs Real Weapons). Or do players roll on a chart to determine strata and the lucky ones get a huge extra benefit? This same issue is why the RAW don't allow PC's to be a class of mind other than human. We don't need a "class of body" system to go along with this.

 

Having established different strata within the PC's, however, how wide are the variances? There are powerful beings beyond Superman and Daxamites. Let's call them Strata 1. Supes is as good as it gets otherwise, so he's Strata 2. Now, what strata are:

 

- Martian Manhunter, Captain Marvel, Power Girl and Wonder Woman (at or near Supes' level)

- Red Tornado, Captain Atom and Firestorm (superpowered; unusual physical specimen)

- Aquaman, the Atom, Elongated Man, Plastic Man, Vixen and Flash (superpowered, but focused superpowers)

- Green Lantern, Hawkman, Hawkgirl and Rocket Red (device powered humans)

- Black Canary, Black Lightning, Fire, Ice, and Zatanna (minor superpowers with no impact on defenses)

- Batman, Mister Miracle and Blue Beetle (well trained normals)

- Green Arrow and Red Arrow (normal guys with unusual weaponry)

- a Checkmate agent

- a trained and experienced police officer or FBI agent

- a noncombatant character (Jimmy Olsen, Oberon, Sue Dibny)

- a child (Mary Batson pre-powers, Traya, Lian Harper)

 

How many strata? How do they interact? Do those of lower strata suffer reduced damage for their innate powers, strength, martial arts and unusual gadgetry, or only for "normal weapons"? Are GA and RA's base arrows "normal weapons"? Are fists normal weapons? Does this vary depending on whether they are backed up with martial arts?

 

Show me a working example of this optional rule using an array of the above characters (choose a JLA lineup from history, for example, plus the lower power levels) where all the characters are PC's to emulate the source material, and are balanced to provide game balance for all characters.

 

PC's and noteworthy NPC's (to use your language)would operate in a single strata; just like they do now. Just talking about providing the option to expand what that means a bit.

To go back to your Roy Harper example. The guy does his thing with dodging and weaving, but when taken by surprise gets shot several times in the chest. Getting shot several times with no defences (Agility based Defences tend to not work when surprised) is pretty serious even if you're halving the body and getting taken to GM's option isn't out of the question because he was surprised and thus taking double stun or in the case of a stratified system Half of Double stun or normal stun. A strata add-on would make this situation less likely, less dangerous but not impossible or not dangerous.

 

Point differences and differences in use of points does the trick just as well.

 

Points can certainly be used to create similar effects. Points are how I do it because I never used published material.

 

Now I'm really seeing "classes of Body". Sorry' date=' your PC can't have any of these advantages, but I will provide them for free to opponents I want to be tougher than you. That way, I can pretend they are built on the same points you are, despite having given them an extra 50 or 100 points of free abilities. Why?[/quote']

 

It's more about lesser opponent getting a disadvantage that they don't get points for to avoid having to increase point values of PC's or rework all of the weapons to be less powerful. But it could also work to keep galactic opponents from needing to be built on 900 points, not that that particularly matters.

[tarragon]

Re: Free equipment side discussion.

 

How do we determine whether foci are super level or normal level? If a VIPER agent (normal) can carry super level equipment (blasters) shouldn't a Gunbunny PC (Super) be carrying normal level weaponry (his guns)? This doesn't seem as obvious or clear cut as it did.

I agree this isn't as clear cut as I would like. I've been using a couple of rules of thumb that I haven't formally defined yet. Anything gotten as free equipment is Normal. Anything that can't be gotten as free equipment must be bought with points and can not be Normal so therefor is at least Super. Things that could be free equipment/Normal can be purchased with points and become Super.

 

This last rules basically covers Gunbunny in one of two ways. Either GB owns special versions of otherwise normal weapons such as a pistol designed to take down supers. The pistol would be a one off special version and probably wouldn't look like the normal version. The weapon itself is Super and it's purchased as a standard OAF (-1). Alternately, for some reason, either through intense training, blessed hands, or pure luck, GB is so good with Normal equipment that he can damage Supers with it. In this case the power is GBs and is bought as OIF pistol of opportunity (-1/2)

 

In terms of what is and isn't available as free equipment I plan to allow any items that exist in todays world and are not prototypes as free equipment. Anything that the real me in the real world could get using the right contacts and enough money can be free equipment and can be gotten with the right contacts and money. In other-words anything manufactured today, even if it's just small runs for the military.

 

Taking Superman by surprise has never seemed to have a lot of impact. It threatens his secret ID more than anything else.

You have to admit Superman is a special case however you use him. If supes is your campaign benchmark then this scheme is inappropriate. Just pile on the points on and go.

 

And as you indirectly point out supes doesn't really interact with the surprise rules normally anyway.

[also regarding surprise] Now normals get quadruple damage against Supers.

 

Nope they get double damage like everyone else. OK sure, it's effectively 4x the reduced damage but the final effect is only 2x from initial value. It might be more of a surprise for the player than usual (as in unexpected number of dice) but it's not any more imbalanced than a typical surprise attack would be in a campaign not using this.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Free equipment side discussion.

 

This happens to me sometimes.

 

I start in on a thread, I read the OP, I get a concept of what we're talking about, I post. Cool. "Here's what I heard, here's the general solution I would use." Somewhere in there when I noted it 'was summarily dismissed' it's because, to my mind, this has now been grossly overcomplicated.

 

Said another way, it almost seems that there's some leve of 'd20ization' going on here; it isn't sufficient to draft a rule governing the effect of normal weapons on supers; it seems (as Diamond Spear pointed out) that now the core concept is to figure out, on the fly, how weapon damage is applied to a target based on who fired it. Okay. So what if I'm a Super in disguise? Can I choose to make my damage 'only normal' damage? All I see at this point is a lot of back and forth and very little progress in terms of the discussion itself.

 

So someone explain to me again: What, exactly, are you trying to accomplish?