CSL's, while surprised and DCV question

[hammersickle59]

When someone has +5 DCV CSL's (for 5pts each) do they get those while surprised and out of combat? If they do, ofcourse its halved (like the base DCV). My instinct is that they dont get it, they didn't have time to assign it.

 

I assume other people have house rules that put surprised opponents at lower than 1/2 DCV. If someone isn't detectable by any of the 5 senses and the victim is sitting down in a chair, how does he possibly get half DCV? Why not zero?

 

Dean

[bigbywolfe]

Re: CSL's, while surprised and DCV question

 

It should almost never be zero. I would think the least amount would usually be 3DCV, which is the same as a 1 hex AoE. If you put DCV at zero, the attacker could not miss, no matter what, which is ridiculous. Even at point blank range people miss occasionally.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: CSL's, while surprised and DCV question

 

It should almost never be zero. I would think the least amount would usually be 3DCV' date=' which is the same as a 1 hex AoE. If you put DCV at zero, the attacker could not miss, no matter what, which is ridiculous. Even at point blank range people miss occasionally.[/quote']

 

That's what rolling an 18 does for you. A single target's DCV can go to zero or below.

 

Remember, a zero DCV is what you get when you're immobile.

[Checkmate]

Re: CSL's, while surprised and DCV question

 

Back to the original question however, no you don't get to assign the DCV levels. Check out the skill Defense Maneuver. One of the levels allows them to be automatically assigned.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: CSL's, while surprised and DCV question

 

I said "ALMOST" and "usually" for a reason, I know there are exceptions. Also, his example of sitting in a chair is not "immoble". True, I didn't account for an 18- roll, but I wasn't stating absolutes either.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: CSL's, while surprised and DCV question

 

Back to the original question however' date=' no you don't get to assign the DCV levels. Check out the skill Defense Maneuver. One of the levels allows them to be automatically assigned.[/quote']

 

Yep.

 

From:

Hero System 5th Edition, Revised ■ Chapter One page 57

 

Defense Maneuver IV: Acts as a “sense,” i.e., the character need not spend a Half Phase to use his Defense Maneuver (using it takes no time); any Combat Skill Levels that improve the character’s DCV are considered Persistent for this purpose: +2 points.

 

Characters must buy the levels of Defense Maneuver in order; they cannot, for example, buy Defense Maneuver III without first buying levels I and II. Thus, full Defense Maneuver costs 10 Character Points.

[Vulcan]

Re: CSL's, while surprised and DCV question

 

On the other hand, Defense Manuever IV allows you to use your DCV levels while unconsious as well (that being the clear implication of 'Persistent')...

 

Our group allows people with 5-point DCV levels to apply them all the time, so long as you are not immobilized or unconscious. Since you can't allocate them to OCV at all, not having time to 'place them in DCV' isn't exactly an issue.

[ghost-angel]

Re: CSL's, while surprised and DCV question

 

Normally, Skill Levels are not assigned outside of Combat or when not explicitly stated.

 

For RAW you do not get DCV Skill Levels when determining DCV.

[Vulcan]

Re: CSL's, while surprised and DCV question

 

Normally, Skill Levels are not assigned outside of Combat or when not explicitly stated.

 

For RAW you do not get DCV Skill Levels when determining DCV.

 

When do they apply then?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: CSL's, while surprised and DCV question

 

When do they apply then?

 

When the character is not surprised.

 

In the same context, Danger Sense is just a way to not be be surprised.

[prestidigitator]

Re: CSL's, while surprised and DCV question

 

I apply Persistent to DCV levels bought because a character is small. Even if these characters don't have Defense Maneuver they should get the benefit (well, half the benefit) of their size even when surprised or whatever.

 

I agree that characters should PROBABLY get a DCV based on their size when immobile, not DCV 0. But only against ranged attacks. Remember that an ADJACENT hex is DCV 0, not DCV 3.

[Checkmate]

Re: CSL's, while surprised and DCV question

 

When do they apply then?

You have to apply them when it's your turn. I believe assinging CSL's is a 0 Phase action. It has to be your phase to apply them. If you go on DEX 20 of Phase 12, you don't get to apply them to someone who goes on DEX 21 of Phase 12.

 

If you allow 5 pointers to be automatically assigned, you're really screwing the people who took the 8 point CSL's and the 10 point Overall Levels.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: CSL's, while surprised and DCV question

 

You have to apply them when it's your turn. I believe assinging CSL's is a 0 Phase action. It has to be your phase to apply them. If you go on DEX 20 of Phase 12, you don't get to apply them to someone who goes on DEX 21 of Phase 12.

 

If you allow 5 pointers to be automatically assigned, you're really screwing the people who took the 8 point CSL's and the 10 point Overall Levels.

 

And this goes to the heart of the rules for Surprise.

 

If a character is surprised, then they normally can't Abort to any defensive actions like: Dodging, Blocking, Assigning CSL's to DCV (or OCV of Block), Activating a defensive Power, etc..

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: CSL's, while surprised and DCV question

 

This highlights the benefits of making DCV a figured characteristic which could be raised separately from DEX. I guess one could buy DEX, does not change combat order, OCV or skill rolls, no figured to get just DCV. I'd suggest that would cost less than 5 points for +3 DEX, since it should cost more than 4 points to get all the other benefits of DEX.

 

This highlights the problem that either DEX is radically underpriced or the broken-out components (I'm looking at YOU, Lightning Reflextes) are largely overpriced.

 

Is +1 DCV, non-persistent, really worth 5 points? A level in HTH allows me to choose between OCV, DCV and enhanced damage. A DCV level allows me no choices whatsoever - maybe it's not really WORTH 5 points.

[Vulcan]

Re: CSL's, while surprised and DCV question

 

When the character is not surprised.

 

In the same context, Danger Sense is just a way to not be be surprised.

 

Ah. He was referring to an earlier post.

 

One might want to consider how 'you do not get DCV Skill Levels when determining DCV' might be misinterpreted...

[Vulcan]

Re: CSL's, while surprised and DCV question

 

This highlights the benefits of making DCV a figured characteristic which could be raised separately from DEX. I guess one could buy DEX, does not change combat order, OCV or skill rolls, no figured to get just DCV. I'd suggest that would cost less than 5 points for +3 DEX, since it should cost more than 4 points to get all the other benefits of DEX.

 

This highlights the problem that either DEX is radically underpriced or the broken-out components (I'm looking at YOU, Lightning Reflextes) are largely overpriced.

 

Is +1 DCV, non-persistent, really worth 5 points? A level in HTH allows me to choose between OCV, DCV and enhanced damage. A DCV level allows me no choices whatsoever - maybe it's not really WORTH 5 points.

 

In a 16 DC game where the GM thinks 25 DEF is brick level () they are worth gold...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: CSL's, while surprised and DCV question

 

In a 16 DC game where the GM thinks 25 DEF is brick level () they are worth gold...

 

So you would rather pay 5 points for +1 DCV level than 6 points for +3 DEX, No Figured Characteristics? To me, 1 point for +1 OCV, +6 lightning reflexes and +0.6 DEX skills seems a pretty good purchase.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: CSL's, while surprised and DCV question

 

+1DEX, No Figured Characteristics, would not give +1OCV, would it? Isn't OCV considered a "figured characteristic", or am I missing something?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: CSL's, while surprised and DCV question

 

+1DEX' date=' No Figured Characteristics, would not give +1OCV, would it? Isn't OCV considered a "figured characteristic", or am I missing something?[/quote']

 

6 +3 DEX (9 Active Points); No Figured Characteristics (-1/2)

I think Hugh was just pointing out that 6 is 1 point more than 5.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: CSL's, while surprised and DCV question

 

:confused:But what's that have to do with the discussion? Aren't we talking about defense, particularly DCV? So what does buying DEX that DOESN'T affect DCV have to do with anything? It seems like an extreme case of compairing apples to oranges (or maybe pineapple to grapes in this case). Am I missing something? I'm just trying to figure out what he means and how it applies to the post he responded to...

[Hyper-Man]

Re: CSL's, while surprised and DCV question

 

:confused:But what's that have to do with the discussion? Aren't we talking about defense' date=' particularly DCV? So what does buying DEX that DOESN'T affect DCV have to do with anything? It seems like an extreme case of compairing apples to oranges (or maybe pineapple to grapes in this case). Am I missing something? I'm just trying to figure out what he means and how it applies to the post he responded to...[/quote']

 

DCV is not a figured stat.

 

From the FAQ:

 

Are CV, Running, Swimming, Leaping, and other such effects derived from Primary Characteristics considered Figured Characteristics?

 

No.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: CSL's, while surprised and DCV question

 

Okay. That's why I asked "Isn't OCV considered a "figured characteristic", or am I missing something?" in my first post. Thank you for the clairification.

[Vulcan]

Re: CSL's, while surprised and DCV question

 

So you would rather pay 5 points for +1 DCV level than 6 points for +3 DEX' date=' No Figured Characteristics? To me, 1 point for +1 OCV, +6 lightning reflexes and +0.6 DEX skills seems a pretty good purchase.[/quote']

 

Assuming the GM allows the construct, that is.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: CSL's, while surprised and DCV question

 

6 +3 DEX (9 Active Points); No Figured Characteristics (-1/2)

I think Hugh was just pointing out that 6 is 1 point more than 5.

 

:confused:But what's that have to do with the discussion? Aren't we talking about defense' date=' particularly DCV? So what does buying DEX that DOESN'T affect DCV have to do with anything? It seems like an extreme case of compairing apples to oranges (or maybe pineapple to grapes in this case). Am I missing something? I'm just trying to figure out what he means and how it applies to the post he responded to...[/quote']

 

DCV is not a figured stat.

 

From the FAQ:

 

Okay. That's why I asked "Isn't OCV considered a "figured characteristic"' date=' or am I missing something?" in my first post. Thank you for the clairification.[/quote']

 

Yup - although OCV and DCV behave a lot like figured characteristics, and my preference would be to specifically make them figured characteristics, allowing them to be bought up or sold back independent of DEX, there is presently no mechanic for doing so.

 

Assuming the GM allows the construct' date=' that is.[/quote']

 

First off, "stat, no figured" seems a pretty uncomplicated construct.

 

More to the point, however, most characters could buy a considerably higher DEX without taking No Figured and pay 6 points per +3 DEX, because they paid points to bump their Speed anyway. Another approach would be to buy up DEX (ignoring No Figured) and sell back extra SPD points, if your SPD is already as high as you wanted.

 

Now the GM might impose a maximum DEX, at which point I'd consider buying max DEX and then buying up OCV and DCV to be avoidance of that maximum DEX level.

 

However, my simplistic point boils down to "either +1 DCV for 5 points is overpriced or DEX is underpriced". +1 DCV is a much better purchase, however, in a Heroic game for a 20 DEX character, when +3 DEX no Figured would cost 12 and +3 DEX after Speed Rebate would cost 15. I find most skill levels, are priced more appropriately for an NCM game than a game without NCM. My solution would be to ditch NCM and price skill levels (and talents to enhance derived characteristics, like Lightning Reflexes) more appropriately for standard characteristic costs. [Or retain NCM, reprice derivatives, but also apply cost doubling to skill levels, etc. that take the character beyond NCM levels].

[Vulcan]

Re: CSL's, while surprised and DCV question

 

Now the GM might impose a maximum DEX' date=' at which point I'd consider buying max DEX and then buying up OCV and DCV to be avoidance of that maximum DEX level. [/quote']

 

Or he's more comfortable with people buying skill levels for boosting CV than DEX, no figured...