Yet another Fantasy Hero Weapons Thread...

[NuSoardGraphite]

Greetings fellow HERO Geeks!

 

I was perusing many old threads here in the Fantasy Hero forums looking for information and opinions on Fantasy weaponry.

 

I, like many here, feel that the 5th edition of HERO took away some of the "flavor" of melee weapons by making the weapons as generic as possible. While this might work okay for a Champions game or Star Hero, its less desirable for a Fantasy game, where melee weapons are at the forefront of every scenario that includes combat.

 

We've discussed this back and forth ad nauseum, but somehow I've never come away feeling quite satisfied with the end results. Thus my solution is to create yet another melee weapons discussion and my hope this time is that I come up with something concrete to add to my Fantasy Hero efforts.

 

Now as far as the basics are concerned, each "class" of Melee Weapons should have some kind of bonus to make each class unique and interesting/useful. On this, most of us agree. I've decided upon the following adjustments:

 

Blades: +1 OCV (for versatility, supreme balance and ease of use)

Maces: Penetrating (the ability to do damage to even heavily armored opponents. This was their main benefit according to Wikipedia and I was already thinking along those lines, they simply confirmed my suspiscion)

Axes: +1DC (for heavy head producing high momentum attacks)

Hammers: +1 Stun multiplier (for shock of blows penetrating armor)

Flails: +1/4 Indirect (to bypass the DCV of sheilds and certain cover)

Polearms: +1" or +2" Stretching (reach of course)

Spears: +1" stretching and Ranged based on STR (throwable)

Staves: +2 with Sweep (for multi-hit attacks which is common in staff fighting)

 

Now, with that out of the way, what I want to do is make every weapon also have a slight disadvantage. For example, I'm considering makeing Flails have a -1 OCV penalty, due to the unbalanced nature of the weapon. Axes will have a slightly increased Strength Minimum due to weight distribution and leverage issues. What other "disadvantages" would you give to the various weapon classes?

[Old Man]

Re: Yet another Fantasy Hero Weapons Thread...

 

I don't know if disadvantages are really warranted, actually. You've already done a fine job of differentiating weapon types. Though I'd give staves a +1 OCV as well (you can poke or hit with either end, and normal damage sucks in FH).

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Yet another Fantasy Hero Weapons Thread...

 

I don't know if disadvantages are really warranted' date=' actually. You've already done a fine job of differentiating weapon types. Though I'd give staves a +1 OCV as well (you can poke or hit with either end, and normal damage sucks in FH).[/quote']

 

Hmmm...if I give staves a +1 OCV I might consider limiting the Sweep bonus to +1, that way with the sweep bonus and OCV bonus, it accounts for the +2. Or not...it could have +1 OCV and +2 with Sweep.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Yet another Fantasy Hero Weapons Thread...

 

Other disadvantages I'm kicking around:

 

Hammers: Reduced Penetrating (they are notoriously poor at penetrating armor)

Maces: -1DC (compared to a sword of equivalent size and STR min)

Polearms and Spears (OCV penalty to hit characters at close range plus minimum room requirements for best useage)

Staves: Normal Damage and relatively fragile compared to other weapons. (lower DEF)

 

Now for the consideration of Strength Minimum.

 

I wanted the STR min for the most common type of sword (the Broadsword) to be the baseline from which all other weapons are compared. Thus, I have changed the STR Min of the Broadsword from 12 to 10 to reflect this approach. The characteristic of STR begins at a 10, thus the STR Min of the median weapon has been changed to 10 to match.

Now, the STR min of each class of weapon will be adjusted by +/- 3 per DC difference appropriately, thus:

Dagger: STRMin 4

Shortsword: STRMin 7

Broadsword: STRMin 10

Bastard sword: STRMin 13 (10 used two handed)

Greatsword: STRMin 16

 

Now, Axes have an increased STR Min of +2 compared to a sword of equivalent size:

Hand Axe: STR Min 9

Francisca: STR Min 12

Battleaxe: STR Min 15

Greataxe: STR Min 18

 

Maces:

Small Mace: STR min 8

Mace: STR Min 11

Great Mace: STR min 17

 

Flails also would have a relatively high STR minimum because of the balance issues.

Flail: STR Min 8

Battle Flail: STR Min 17

Large Flail: STR Min 14

War Flail: STR Min 9

Morningstar: STR Min 14

 

The Quarterstaff I would leave at STR Min 10, making it a reasonable for non-military personel to wield effectively.

[Shadowsoul]

Re: Yet another Fantasy Hero Weapons Thread...

 

Just to confuse the issue further I'd give the staff +1 with Block. Bear in mind that it won't be doing as much damage as a spear or sword. On the other hand if you are using it in the quarterstaff style then it's really a sort of polearm, particularly a long stave which could reach up to five metres in length apparently.

[DusterBoy]

Re: Yet another Fantasy Hero Weapons Thread...

 

The broadsword is not the most common type of sword. The term "broadsword" has two meanings: a double-edged military sword, with complex hilt, term originating in the 17th Century, or an 18th Century short naval cutlass. The type of sword everyone thinks about, eg: the Viking- or Crusader-pattern swords, is simply called a "sword". Later it became known as an arming sword, worn on the belt, with the longsword, a hand-and-a-half weapon, worn on the pommel of the horse's saddle.

 

The best example of a real broadsword is the Scottish basket-hilted broadsword worn on ceremonial occasions.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Yet another Fantasy Hero Weapons Thread...

 

The broadsword is not the most common type of sword. The term "broadsword" has two meanings: a double-edged military sword, with complex hilt, term originating in the 17th Century, or an 18th Century short naval cutlass. The type of sword everyone thinks about, eg: the Viking- or Crusader-pattern swords, is simply called a "sword". Later it became known as an arming sword, worn on the belt, with the longsword, a hand-and-a-half weapon, worn on the pommel of the horse's saddle.

 

The best example of a real broadsword is the Scottish basket-hilted broadsword worn on ceremonial occasions.

 

Dude, I'm not trying to be that historically accurate.

 

The broadsword/longsword is the most common type of sword in Fantasy fiction which is what I'm attempting to simulate. Thanks for the information though.

[Scion Zane]

Re: Yet another Fantasy Hero Weapons Thread...

 

here is a question for you shouldnt Long bows be writen up as an HKA with range addvantage. or incresed range also? because it take str to pull the bow string back and hold it

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Yet another Fantasy Hero Weapons Thread...

 

Do the various "disadvantages" all have to be game-mechanical? If not, there are some other possibilities:

 

Swords, being made almost entirely of metal, are more expensive than the equvalent Axe, Mace, Hammer, etc.

 

And what about Picks? Armor Piercing on the plus side.

 

Maybe they can also have some advantage/disadvantage depending on the type of foe.

 

Picks might be especially effecive against earth elementals, but not so much against skeletal creatures.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Yet another Fantasy Hero Weapons Thread...

 

here is a question for you shouldnt Long bows be writen up as an HKA with range addvantage. or incresed range also? because it take str to pull the bow string back and hold it

 

 

No, Longbows absolutely should not be written up as HKA with the Ranged advantage.

 

Why?

 

Because Longbows (like crossbows and firearms) are simply a mechanism for tossing a projectile at an enemy. The character does not use their own musculature to throw the arrow (in which case, you would add STR damage).

 

Now I do admit that bows should have some special considerations and that was the next subject I was going to tackle, so wait for my thread on Bows and Arrows (though I may find some info in Fantasy Hero that is to my likeing, I haven't read that part yet)

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Yet another Fantasy Hero Weapons Thread...

 

Do the various "disadvantages" all have to be game-mechanical? If not' date=' there are some other possibilities:[/quote']

 

Not necessarily. I would prefer if they were all mechanic-specific, but also a social consideration like cost can be considered a factor as well.

 

Swords, being made almost entirely of metal, are more expensive than the equvalent Axe, Mace, Hammer, etc.

 

Agreed. This is why swords became known as a "gentleman's weapon" and survived the coming of firearms better than the more common weapons.

 

And what about Picks? Armor Piercing on the plus side.

 

Yeah, I forgot to mention Picks, but then again, HERO has always had Picks with Armor Piercing, so no change really needs to be made there.

 

Maybe they can also have some advantage/disadvantage depending on the type of foe.

 

Possibly. They wouldn't be very effective against Automaton-type undead like Zombies and skeletons...all picks would do is poke holes in them and not really do much to stop them.

[Eosin]

Re: Yet another Fantasy Hero Weapons Thread...

 

I tend to keep the STR Mins lower. It just seems weird that a normal man cannot reasonably use a common weapon like a mace, francisca, or morningstar. It also allows a little more umph in the damage.

 

Resistant Piercing is one way that I "unique-ify" weapons in my setting. Longbows punching through 4 Points of Armor sorta makes them feared as all get out.

 

TLD Resources - the third post down has a fairly extensive list of weapons used in The Last Dominion setting.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Yet another Fantasy Hero Weapons Thread...

 

The broadsword is not the most common type of sword. The term "broadsword" has two meanings: a double-edged military sword, with complex hilt, term originating in the 17th Century, or an 18th Century short naval cutlass. The type of sword everyone thinks about, eg: the Viking- or Crusader-pattern swords, is simply called a "sword". Later it became known as an arming sword, worn on the belt, with the longsword, a hand-and-a-half weapon, worn on the pommel of the horse's saddle.

 

The best example of a real broadsword is the Scottish basket-hilted broadsword worn on ceremonial occasions.

 

Let me guess...

 

ARMA?

 

longsword is a bit closer to the mark, having multiple cultural origins and not always referring to hand-and-a-half swords, besides being a convenient label.

 

I blame D&D for starting the whole mess, as a means to distinguish different classes of blade without having to list off specs.

 

I suppose it's easier to grok than "Oakeshott XIIIa"

 

EDIT: I suppose I should have said Oakshotte XIV, as the XIII and XIIIa are 1 1/2 handers and great swords, respectively.

Shows you what I normally play with

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Yet another Fantasy Hero Weapons Thread...

 

No, Longbows absolutely should not be written up as HKA with the Ranged advantage.

 

Why?

 

Because Longbows (like crossbows and firearms) are simply a mechanism for tossing a projectile at an enemy. The character does not use their own musculature to throw the arrow (in which case, you would add STR damage).

 

Now I do admit that bows should have some special considerations and that was the next subject I was going to tackle, so wait for my thread on Bows and Arrows (though I may find some info in Fantasy Hero that is to my likeing, I haven't read that part yet)

 

I've toyed with "overdrawing" rules but thus far haven't really bothered implementing any in a game.

Probably something on the order of allowing an extra +5 STR to be used for an extra +1 DC, with the drawback that any overdrawn shot that rolls a 16 or better breaks something for Major Side Effects, roughly modeled as the same DC attack on the user.

[Old Man]

Re: Yet another Fantasy Hero Weapons Thread...

 

I suppose it's easier to grok than "Oakeshott XIIIa"

 

I know what that means! Well, I'd have to look it up. But I have the book!

[Old Man]

Re: Yet another Fantasy Hero Weapons Thread...

 

Dude' date=' I'm not trying to be that historically accurate.[/quote']

 

In that case tweak all your STR mins so that they're not sitting on the 13-15-18 breakpoints. That's probably the one thing that most enraged me about 4th ed FH.

[Old Man]

Re: Yet another Fantasy Hero Weapons Thread...

 

Maybe they can also have some advantage/disadvantage depending on the type of foe.

 

Actually one thing I always liked about GURPS (heresy, yes, I know) was the differentiation between cutting/impact/impaling damage and resulting different protection values for armor. I've toyed with methods of including that in FH, but never gotten very far. Probably the way to do it is to throw the point structure out the window and just give different armor types varying values of resistant defense depending on the attack type. It still gets hairy when there are spellcasters around, though.

[Markdoc]

Re: Yet another Fantasy Hero Weapons Thread...

 

Other disadvantages I'm kicking around:

 

Hammers: Reduced Penetrating (they are notoriously poor at penetrating armor)

 

Just a point - hammers are really good at penetrating/crushing armour: historically, it's what they were primarily used for.

 

cheers, Mark

[Outsider]

Re: Yet another Fantasy Hero Weapons Thread...

 

I always figured the different level of bows (very light, light, medium, heavy, very heavy) represented bows with different pulls, so making bows "HKA with Ranged" seems unneccessary. If you want to use more STR with a bow, get a 'heavier' model.

 

I am also one of those people who was always disturbed by how 'fit normals' (STR 10) can't use any but the lightest of weapons without penalty.

 

Anyway, with that in mind :

 

For me what has always seemed a bit silly is how much worse crossbows are than standard bows in Fantasy Hero. They have a far slower rate of fire, and don't do any more damage. So I developed the following option for crossbows :

 

STR min = Active Points/2

 

This represents a crossbow that is loaded by pulling the string back by hand. Use of mechanical aids can increase the power of the crossbow that a user of a given STR can manage, though such devices generally take extra time to use. A crossbow designed for use with a mechanical aid can be loaded without one, but its 'hand draw' STR Min goes up by 5 for ever DC added by the mechanical aid not used.

 

Goat's Foot : +1 DC, 1 Extra Phase

The crossbow has a lugs for the fitting of a lever that allows significant mechanical advantage to the loader of the bow. Some crossbows have the lever built in, rather than having it carried seperately.

 

Belt hook : +2 DC, 1 Extra Phase, 0 DCV while loading

The crossbow has a foot loop at the nose and the user wears a sturdy belt with a hook attatched to it. To load the crossbow, he puts his foot through the loop, bends at the knees, puts the hook from his belt over the string of the crossbow, then stands up. This means he is using the strength of his legs to draw the bow, rather than merely the strength of his arms.

 

Crannequin : +3 DC (or more), 1 Turn to load, 0 DCV while loading

The crossbow has provision for the attatchment of a rack & pinion or windlass arrangement that allows a very large amount of mechanical advantage to the loader of the bow. The crannequin listed represents the basic model. By altering the gearing ratio of the device one could draw even stronger bows, albeit at the cost of even more cranking. A +4 DC crannequin takes 3 turns to use, and a +5 DC one takes 5 turns to use. A +5 Crannequin Crossbow usable by a 10 STR man would thus be 9 DC, take a full minute to load, and would represent the largest of one-man seige arbalests.

[Outsider]

Re: Yet another Fantasy Hero Weapons Thread...

 

I tend to keep the STR Mins lower. It just seems weird that a normal man cannot reasonably use a common weapon like a mace, francisca, or morningstar. It also allows a little more umph in the damage.

 

Resistant Piercing is one way that I "unique-ify" weapons in my setting. Longbows punching through 4 Points of Armor sorta makes them feared as all get out.

 

TLD Resources - the third post down has a fairly extensive list of weapons used in The Last Dominion setting.

 

 

 

From what I recall, the English longbow's decisive performance agaisnt the heavily armored French knights wasnt so much about the armor piercing power of the shots as it was about the rate of fire against the French knight's unarmored horses.

[Eosin]

Re: Yet another Fantasy Hero Weapons Thread...

 

From what I recall' date=' the English longbow's decisive performance agaisnt the heavily armored French knights wasnt so much about the armor piercing power of the shots as it was about the rate of fire against the French knight's unarmored horses.[/quote']

 

There were many reasons for its success in the real world. In the game, it fills a specific niche:

1. It can't be used from horse

2. It requires special arrows and special wood - possession becomes something more than "just a bow."

3. The STR Min is high so it requires additional points from normals [+5 STR; Only for Bow STR Min]

4. It fills a strategic roll in player weapon choice

 

By limiting who and where it can be used, it creates a pseudo eliteness to the weapon.

 

I did the same thing with other weapons - there are generic weapons and then there are items that mark someone as elite (Kaladian Longsword, Mhorda Fighting Blades, ect...) So, history provided examples but it gives way to (IMO) cool game-ism.

 

Also note, I give the most powerful crossbows a goodly bit of RP as well and scale down as the bows loose punch-through power.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Yet another Fantasy Hero Weapons Thread...

 

Just a point - hammers are really good at penetrating/crushing armour: historically, it's what they were primarily used for.

 

cheers, Mark

 

I know! I'm trying to reconcile this with the Mace writeups. I want them to be significantly different from one another, but then again I don't want to toss realism completely out of the window, which is what I've done with the hammer's writeup with Reduced Penetrating.

 

Technically, a War Hammer should have the Penetrating advantage. It doesn't puncture armor...it transmits force through the armor to damage whats beneath it. Thats Penetrating in a nutshell.

 

Unfortunately, thats what the mace does. And I like the fact that the hammer gets +1 Stun multiplier. Should the hammer get both +1 stunx and Penetrating? That seems too unbalancing!

 

What I'm thinking of doing right now is removing the Reduced Penetation limitation from the War Hammer and increase its DC slightly in order for it to have a higher chance of doing damage to heavy armored opponents. Maybe with 2 points of Piercing.....

[Markdoc]

Re: Yet another Fantasy Hero Weapons Thread...

 

From what I recall' date=' the English longbow's decisive performance agaisnt the heavily armored French knights wasnt so much about the armor piercing power of the shots as it was about the rate of fire against the French knight's unarmored horses.[/quote']

 

Right - and also it forced the French knights to ride and maneuver with closed helms, to avoid the risk of an arrow in the unarmored face: that contributed to their difficulty in maneuver and coordination. Try shouting your orders inside a closed helm and see how far other people in closed helms can hear it ...

 

Trials with reproduction weapons have repeatedly shown that the idea of longbow arrows piercing through plate armour are myth - at anything other than point blank range (and there your chances are merely poor). It will go through mail just fine, though and thus was a real threat to the composite mail and plate armours in use during the hundred years war. A longbow arrow might bounce off your breastplate or helm, but it could make a nasty hole if it hit a gap where you had only mail or leather, and if thousands of arrows are raining out of the sky, that's certainly a possibility. At the very least, that possibility's going to play hob with your concentration.

 

It's no coincidence that by the time of the Wars of the Roses, when full plate harness was the rule, that longbowmen had become relegated to the status (and pay) of support troops even though they were fielded in their thousands: they were simply unable at that stage to stop a charge by heavily-armoured men at arms (though massed arrow fire could still mess them up a bit, due to command and communication problems, as above). It was at this point that early guns began to displace longbows: they could make holes in armour on a regular basis.

 

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: Yet another Fantasy Hero Weapons Thread...

 

I know! I'm trying to reconcile this with the Mace writeups. I want them to be significantly different from one another, but then again I don't want to toss realism completely out of the window, which is what I've done with the hammer's writeup with Reduced Penetrating.

 

Technically, a War Hammer should have the Penetrating advantage. It doesn't puncture armor...it transmits force through the armor to damage whats beneath it. Thats Penetrating in a nutshell.

 

Unfortunately, thats what the mace does. And I like the fact that the hammer gets +1 Stun multiplier. Should the hammer get both +1 stunx and Penetrating? That seems too unbalancing!

 

What I'm thinking of doing right now is removing the Reduced Penetation limitation from the War Hammer and increase its DC slightly in order for it to have a higher chance of doing damage to heavy armored opponents. Maybe with 2 points of Piercing.....

 

That might work - or you could just fold maces and hammers together into a single category: in real life, which you used tended to be a matter of preference - they functioned similarly.

 

If you want more differentiation, I'd tend to make hammers and spiked/flanged maces penetrating and clubs or maces without projections +1 Stun. Real life maces tend to be be heavier than warhammers, but also tended to have a larger head - most warhammers I've seen (and I've seen lots) tend to have heads designed to deliver impact to a limited area. Of the two, the hammer is more likely to make a hole.

 

cheers, Mark

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Yet another Fantasy Hero Weapons Thread...

 

In that case tweak all your STR mins so that they're not sitting on the 13-15-18 breakpoints. That's probably the one thing that most enraged me about 4th ed FH.

 

I have done this, though I have used "breakpoints" to a lesser degree.

 

My STRmin justifications are thus:

 

A normal in-shape man (STR 10) should be able to wield a common sword with little trouble whatsoever. Thus I make the STRmin of the Longsword (excuse me, common sword) a 10. For each "class" of weapon above or below the longsword, the STR minimum is adjusted by 3 points. Thus a dagger is STRmin 4, shortsword is STRmin 7, a bastard sword is STRmin 13 and a greatsword is STRmin 16 (no longer 18)

 

Other weapons are adjusted according to these numbers in comparison to how heavy/unbalanced they are in comparison to a sword of near or equivalent Damage Class.