Speed Boosts: Debated

[Hugh Neilson]

Steve, I think your first answer makes more sense than the FAQ answer. A character with +40 STR, 2x END, only uses End if he uses the strength. A character with +4 SPD, costs END shouldn't have to use the END if he's not using the Speed.

 

This creates some issues regarding which phases the character chooses to use the extra speed, which requires a bit of GM judgement, but for a character who can move faster through extra effort, it seems to make sense he could shut down the extra effort as needed.

 

The result of "spend every phase" doesn't make sense - a character with 2 SPD who can exert himself to get a 4 SPD (ie +2 SPD costs END) pays 8 END per turn, and a character who has a 6 Speed, +2 costs END, pays 16 END per turn. Twice as much END for the same two extra actions doesn't seem balanced.

 

At the extreme, if you have 10 SPD to begin with, +2 Costs End, you have to pay 24 END per turn to add the same two actions our 2 SPD friend got for 8 END per turn at the same point cost.

 

This works to the advantage of characters with NCM, since they wouldn't have a high speed to begin with.

 

I agree you pay END every phase a power is up. You pay END for your force field whether you get hit or not, for example. But in the case of Speed, why would the character "activate" the power in phases they get anyway? Viewed logically, it's really only "active" in the extra phases, just like +40 STR is really only "active" when I use that extra STR. Pulsar doesn't have to pay END because he could use his extra EB, only when he actually uses it.

 

Mind you, I would also say that he doesn't get the benefits of the extra phase unless he pays the END, so there is a tradeoff - under my logic, since the character doesn't spend the END until his phase comes up, he can't use his extra phase to recover from being stunned (or from being knocked out).

[Steve Long]

The Questions board is completely inappropriate for debating rules issues. If you, or anyone else, wants to start a discussion, then the Discussion board is the place to go.

[Hugh Neilson]

Sorry to offend.

 

I just found it odd to see the same issue ruled two different ways and was hoping you might comment on the issue further. My thinking was that it's not a clear-cut rules issue given you had effectively ruled both ways.

 

Mind you, it also shows how careful any GM has to be in considering rulings - the other way was persuasive enough to make the FAQ, and this morning's post saw a complete 180 on that ruling. Present the right arguments, and the wrong conclusion is easy to obtain.

 

I'd be curious to see how either approach has worked out by anyone who's run/GM'd a character with Speed that costs END.

[JMHammer]

Instead of Costs END

 

I think that if extra SPD costs END, then it should cost that END each phase.

 

On the other hand, I think you can use another Limitation to represent, "After I finish with hypermode, I'm exhausted." Remove the costs END Limitation and add this -1/4 Limitation: The only Recoveries the character may take while the power is in effect are post-12 Recoveries. The character will use more END than normal simply because he's got more Phases to burn, and not being able to take a Recovery as an action will mean he'll probably be low on END when the power is turned off - it will probably be the reason he turns off the power. Sure, the character can do nothing on a phase, but using no END isn't as good as getting some back from a Recovery action.

 

John H

[Tim]

Paying END each phase when using +SPD, costs END, sounds okay to me. If you think of the extra spd as just another constant power that has to have its END paid each phase for it to work, it should make more sense.

 

Since +SPD, Costs END is a constant power you shouldn't be able to take recoveries while using it anyway.(except post segment 12 recoveries.)

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Tim

Paying END each phase when using +SPD, costs END, sounds okay to me. If you think of the extra spd as just another constant power that has to have its END paid each phase for it to work, it should make more sense.

 

Since +SPD, Costs END is a constant power you shouldn't be able to take recoveries while using it anyway.(except post segment 12 recoveries.)

 

Sorry; I can't fiigure out whether you're arguing for or against my point here, Tim, but your first sentence sums of the crux of the issue. Either way, thanks for clarifying the issue. The question is which phases you are "using" +Speed.

 

COMMENCE TIRADE:

 

Why should it cost more END per turn for a 6 Speed character to add two to his Speed than it costs for a 2 Speed character to add 2 to his speed? I can see no reason in terms of logic, and no reason in terms of game balance.

 

They pay for EB each phase it is used, and they get an attack each phase they use it. They pay for STR each phase they use it, not just for the privilege of being strong. They pay END to move each phase they move, and they move each phase. Why should they pay for extra Speed when it's not actually in use? You pay END when you USE an ability, not just for the privilege of having it available for use.

 

The only reason for wanting him to pay END in each phase is because we look at a turn as a discrete 12 segment time period, instead of a concenience to chunk up time for game measurement. Do you think the characters somehow "know" that this is Phase 12, so a new turn will start momentarily?

 

The character is not benefiting from extra Speed in those segments he would get an action anyway. Let's assume a 3 SPD with +3 Speed, costs END. He can turn the power on and off at will, like any power (including constant powers).

 

Combat starts in phase 12. So he turns the power on, pays 3 END, and recovers it in post segment 12. His extra speed is on, so he moves in phase 2. The first thing he does is shut off the power. It lasts until the end of his phase (see FAQ re being stunned), so he then acts normally on Phase 2. On Phase 4, his bonus speed is off, but he mnoves on Phase 4 anyway. Activate +3 Speed, costs END. Pay 3 END. Move in Phase 4. Wash, rinse, repeat. In the course of a turn, assuming he chooses to pay the END, the character pays 9 End (3 x 3) and gets 3 extra phases. 1 extra phase = 1 END cost. The character pays the same END as if he paid end on his extra phases - exactly as he should.

 

END TIRADE

[Lupus]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Why should they pay for extra Speed when it's not actually in use? You pay END when you USE an ability, not just for the privilege of having it available for use.

 

Of course, extra SPD does benefit you all around the turn. As you pointed out later in your tirade, if you go from SPD 3 to SPD 6, you act earlier - from segment 4 to segment 2. That means you're benefitting turn-round. That's also why I monitor SPD very closely and don't usually like limited SPD at the best of times.

 

I do think it's a bit harsh to demand the END cost be paid every phase. I'd like there to be a middle ground. But I think it's beneficial enough over the entire turn to warrant something to reflect that.

 

'Course, you're always free to rule it otherwise in your game. If it doesn't make sense to you, don't do it the official way.

 

(With your example of turning the power on and off: wouldn't he pay the cost in phase 2 anyway, even if he turned it off? Even if not... in phase four, he turns it back on again. But if I understand correctly, once you activate a speed boost, you have to wait until the next segment that's an action for both SPDs - in other words, segment 8, not 6. That's if I remember those rules correctly, anyway.)

[dbsousa]

This is the problem with mechanics out of context. What are you trying to simulate? The FAQ talks about reasoning from effect, and without that, the exercise is pointless.

 

If what you are trying to simulate is a character who burns endurance when he increases his speed, I would suggest the following construction:

 

SPD Aid: Standard Effect, Delayed Fade Rate, Side Effect (Physical Limitation: All actions cost X2 END)

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Lupus

Of course, extra SPD does benefit you all around the turn. As you pointed out later in your tirade, if you go from SPD 3 to SPD 6, you act earlier - from segment 4 to segment 2. That means you're benefitting turn-round. That's also why I monitor SPD very closely and don't usually like limited SPD at the best of times.

 

In Segment 2, the character benefits. He's moving earlier than he normally wpould, and it costs him none of his later phases. Therefore, he should pay END to have access to phase 2. In phase 4, however, he would have moved anyway. Why should he pay again to access phase 4?

 

As well, why should a 2 speed character who buys +2 SPD, costs END, pay 8 END per turn, but a 6 SPD character who buys +2 SPD costs END pay 16 END? He's certainly not getting twice the benefits the first one gets!

 

I agree with you that Speed should be monitored very closely, and that includes limited Speed. I don't have a specific usage in mind; the issue comes from another thread.

 

Originally posted by Lupus

I do think it's a bit harsh to demand the END cost be paid every phase. I'd like there to be a middle ground. But I think it's beneficial enough over the entire turn to warrant something to reflect that.

 

It's beneficial to have +20 STR. That's why you pay points for it. However, if you haven't used it in a given phase, you don't pay any END for it, despite the fact it may benefit you at some other time in the turn. Similarly, there's no benefit from +2 SPD in phase 12.

 

Originally posted by Lupus

'Course, you're always free to rule it otherwise in your game. If it doesn't make sense to you, don't do it the official way.

 

Which official way? The one Steve ruled this morning, or the FAQ?

 

Originally posted by Lupus

(With your example of turning the power on and off: wouldn't he pay the cost in phase 2 anyway, even if he turned it off? Even if not... in phase four, he turns it back on again. But if I understand correctly, once you activate a speed boost, you have to wait until the next segment that's an action for both SPDs - in other words, segment 8, not 6. That's if I remember those rules correctly, anyway.)

 

If you turn your force field off at the start of your phase, do you pay END for it that phase? Generally, once you stop paying END the power shuts off. Arguably, that means the bonus speed shuts off immediately, but if the bonus speed is not available, the character lacks a phase in which to take the zero phase action to shut off the power.

 

Changing speeds is a zero phase action. The character next acts in the next phase which is a phase for both speeds. Segment 4 is a phase for both 3 and 6 speeds, so the character whose speed changes on Phase 2 should next act on Phase 4 - and turn his Speed Bonus back on.

 

Appropriately, the character should have a choice at each "bonus phase" - if you want the phase to be available, you pay the END immediately on your turn. Otherwise, you wait for your next phase as normal.

[Farkling]

That may be the crux of Steve's opinion.

 

You have the OPTION of taking an action...you are not aborting, or dodging or diving for cover, you have the option of using a full phase normally. If you choose not ot, you do not pay END. If you choose to do so, you pay END to "activate" your extra SPD...observe...ACTIVATE.

 

How can you have the option to use it if it isn't activated?

 

But I also think it is a little harsh to pay END every Phase for the effect. So, alternate structures come to mind. Hypermode feels like a munchkin combat effect...I'd go with the aforementione 1/4 limitation, or define it as "+4 SPD, Side Effects - Drains x END / Phase" I don't like monkeying with SPD unless it is for restricted effects, and I wouldn't allow SPD with "Costs END" in my campaing...though my alternatives are right here for you...

 

The only other thing I can think of is defining it as an RSR power, and call it Hypermode...then add a Susceptibility Drain applied to END....you can shift the exposure time on the Drain...

 

Those could be use OUT of combat also...with the horrid side effects postulated...

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Farkling

That may be the crux of Steve's opinion.

 

You have the OPTION of taking an action...you are not aborting, or dodging or diving for cover, you have the option of using a full phase normally. If you choose not ot, you do not pay END. If you choose to do so, you pay END to "activate" your extra SPD...observe...ACTIVATE.

 

How can you have the option to use it if it isn't activated?

 

I do see your poiint here, but you also have the option to use your other powers, even if they aren't activated, and you don't suck up END for that. The question comes down to when do you actually USE that bonus speed.

 

You don't pay END for the privilege of having extra STR that you don't use. That can be used between phases (for example for casual STR when grabbed or entangled), but the exertion costs END? Why should Speed cost END for being available, instead of for being used?

 

Originally posted by Farkling

But I also think it is a little harsh to pay END every Phase for the effect. So, alternate structures come to mind. Hypermode feels like a munchkin combat effect...I'd go with the aforementione 1/4 limitation, or define it as "+4 SPD, Side Effects - Drains x END / Phase" I don't like monkeying with SPD unless it is for restricted effects, and I wouldn't allow SPD with "Costs END" in my campaing...though my alternatives are right here for you...

 

To me, the bigger issue isn't "Will I allow a limitation on the SPD", but "WIll I allow this SPD in the first place". SPD isn't all that expensive, so my "Munchkin" approach would be to just buy it up as high as possible and suck up the point cost. Maybe limit it to certain actions (see Menton and grond for examples), but not set it up to cost me END (I need that for my overpowered attacks and defenses) or actually be UNAVAILABLE sometimes.

 

Maybe your munchkins aren't as bright. Or maybe they see something I don't in limiting the Speed. My answer is far more likely to be "Limited or not, you aren't getting a 10 Speed" than quibbling over the value or mechanics of the limitation itself.

 

With that in mind, let's assume you are a munchkin, and you have to choose between the various options of:

 

+4 Speed - 40 points, no END, always available

 

+4 Speed - costs END to activate, 2x END - that's 8 END to activate and it stays up until I'm KO'd. Cost: 27 points (limitation of +1 halved because it's only to activate) I have to wait for my first normal phase to activate it (but that will often be Phase 12 when combat starts).

 

+4 Speed, costs END - same 27 points, but now I spend 16 END a turn, assuming my "lenient" approach (way more if I spend every phase in the turn). Maybe (my lenient approach) I don't have to wait until my normal phase to activate it. Same point cost, but way more END spent, even under my approach. Now I'm thinking costs end per phase isn't a big enough limit at +1/2.

 

Is the Munchkin going to take "costs END" under either approach? Why should he? The character that takes Costs End under either approach is taking on a greater limitation for exactly the same point break, so anyone focusing on efficient character design won't take it.

 

I looked at an Aid mechanic to get the same effect, but it would be way more expensive (even if you took Costs END and is Self Only - better to just buy more stats), so we won't go there. [i lost my post, so I don't want to type it again.]

 

Originally posted by Farkling

The only other thing I can think of is defining it as an RSR power, and call it Hypermode...then add a Susceptibility Drain applied to END....you can shift the exposure time on the Drain...

 

Those could be use OUT of combat also...with the horrid side effects postulated...

 

RSR...hmmm...the skill's fairly cheap, and RSR's a +1/2.

 

Hmmm...if it does have an activation roll (or a RSR), when does he roll? Once to activate or every time he wants to use it? Based on your comments (way) above, it must only be when he activates it. Until he activates his Speed, he doesn't have a phase to try to activate it, does he?

 

SPD onlky costs 10 points per, so the minuses are manageable. If you put Persistent on it as well, so it doesn't stop when you're knocked out, you get back to having +4 Speed (and it costs the same 40 points, so why not?).

 

MUNCHKIN MODE ON: "Mr GM, Sir, I'm in the shower after getting up and I take a 0 Phase action to activate my Speed Bonus. <

 

Under my methodology, since he would pay END in each extra phase (ie when he decides to use the bonus Speed), he would also roll activation in each extra phase.

 

NITRO MODE ON: "OK, Kid, you activated one extra phase in the shower. You get to work 2 seconds early. If you want to activate it again, you'll have to roll again. EVERY PHASE you want gets a roll. And quit wasting game time or I'll penalize you XP until you're an Incompetent Normal."NITRO MODE OFF <>

 

Either a Side Effect or the Susceptibility to simulate the END loss is defintely another way to go. That side effect will be pretty high end unless your Speed has an activation roll/skill roll, even if relatively low power, since it happens every time. The susceptibility can be set to go off only after X Phases of use, so allows for the most customized END loss.

 

SUMMARIZED:

 

1. The Munchkin issue comes down more to how much Speed allowed than what limitations it can have.

 

2. Only a completely incompetent munchkin couldn't find a better way to squeeze out a +1/2 limitation than Costs END.

 

3. The detrimental impact of Costs END should be at least somewhat balanced with the effects of other limitations of equal value.

[Farkling]

A pleasure discussing these things with you.

 

Personally, I opt for the Phase 12 activation and would require the RSR then, and on each Phase 12 afterwards...though I hate stating that without running a test sequence under live fire conditions.

 

Judging by your points versus Steve's ruling, I can only come to one conclusion...

 

You picture SPD as being a full Turn power, with no reservations...(thus your STR argument)

I picture it is a full turn power with some reservations

Steve must picture it as a phase to phase power like force field and company.

 

I still feel you are getting something for nothing...if SPD - costs END is only paid on the extra phases you USE...you are getting a free full attack action abort, provided you pay the END on that phase. I can see requiring you to pay END evey phase as a balance issue..perhaps Steve's ruling is somehow balance related...though I can't see it clearly from here.

 

Also...the STR argument doesn't hold up for me. I've played Hero for ages, and we've always told the new players that STR through COM statistics are roleplaying stats, and the PD through STUN are primarily combat stats...you and I can debate that somewhere else if you wish (I freely admit SPD has "out of combat" uses)...but SPD is a figured characteristic in most games, and should be analyzed as such.

 

So, in my view it is much more fair to compare SPD to PD or ED instead of STR. If you bought PD (or ED) - costs END...could you choose to spend the END after someone hit you? Or do you spend it before? Hmmm....this logical construct seems to lean toward paying the END for the SPD every phase if I want the option of having the extra phases available.

 

My House::

If forced to, I would prefer to charge for activation on Post Phase 12, and paying END during the extra phases. If you choose not to use one of the extra phases, then you have turned off the power. If you turn off the power, you may not reactivate until Post Phase 12. This also holds for taking a recovery...since you have to turn it off. I do agree it's wrong to charge the high SPD characters MORE END for a small boost than a low SPD character. Consider this though, this would be a particularly devastating construct in a Heroic campaign with Normal Char Maxima... Steve's ruling are usually system wide, not genre specific...

 

I'd still prefer to go with "Susceptible to SPD usage over 4", or to put Side Effects on the extra pips of SPD.

It's a construct...of course there are flaws.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Farkling

A pleasure discussing these things with you.

 

Ditto

 

Originally posted by Farkling

Personally, I opt for the Phase 12 activation and would require the RSR then, and on each Phase 12 afterwards...though I hate stating that without running a test sequence under live fire conditions.

 

It would be nice to see how this has worked in a game, rather than speculating on it. A lot depends on how much END the character has, and how much he uses for other purposes, but that could be said about a lot of constructs.

 

Originally posted by Farkling

Judging by your points versus Steve's ruling, I can only come to one conclusion...You picture SPD as being a full Turn power, with no reservations...(thus your STR argument)

I picture it is a full turn power with some reservations

Steve must picture it as a phase to phase power like force field and company.

 

I picture it as a phase by phase power. One point of Speed buys you one more phase. This is what you get, so it's what you pay for.

 

Any other ability costs END when you use it, not for the privilege of having it. I see no reasons "Speed costs END" should be different. A character with an AID that costs END doesn't pay END for the privilege of being able to use an AID, he pays when he actually puts it into action. For Speed, that's when he decides to use the phase.

 

Originally posted by Farkling

I still feel you are getting something for nothing...if SPD - costs END is only paid on the extra phases you USE...you are getting a free full attack action abort, provided you pay the END on that phase. I can see requiring you to pay END evey phase as a balance issue..perhaps Steve's ruling is somehow balance related...though I can't see it clearly from here.

 

I hadn't thought about aborting, to be honest. The character could abort his next phase in any case, however, so I think if he aborts between a "regular" phase and a "bonus" phase, he'd have to pay the END at the start of his "bonus phase" or he'll lose the next regular phase.

 

As far as balance goes, I think my previous post makes it pretty clear - if charging every phase is for balance purposes, then it's missed the mark.

 

Originally posted by Farkling

Also...the STR argument doesn't hold up for me. I've played Hero for ages, and we've always told the new players that STR through COM statistics are roleplaying stats, and the PD through STUN are primarily combat stats...you and I can debate that somewhere else if you wish (I freely admit SPD has "out of combat" uses)...but SPD is a figured characteristic in most games, and should be analyzed as such.

 

I've played since 1st Ed, and I find it pretty tough to classify STR, CON, DEX, BOD as roleplaying stats rather than combat stats. BOD, in particular, serves basically the same purpose as STUN - it measures how much damage can you absorb before you can go no more.

 

Originally posted by Farkling

So, in my view it is much more fair to compare SPD to PD or ED instead of STR. If you bought PD (or ED) - costs END...could you choose to spend the END after someone hit you? Or do you spend it before? Hmmm....this logical construct seems to lean toward paying the END for the SPD every phase if I want the option of having the extra phases available.

 

Obviously, you choose to activate your PD before you're struck (maybe instantaneously before when you abort, but before nonetheless). But you can choose to have it on or off in any given phase. If you choose, at the start of your phase, not to have that extra PD, you don't pay END. Having the choice to have PD available does not cost END - having the extra defense costs END. If I look at the tactical situation in ph 4, I may decide I can afford to shut off my extra PD until my next phase.

 

Likewise, having the choice to take an extra phase or not should not cost END. The decision to "activate" that extra phase should cost END. When my turn comes up in [bonus] phase 2, I can either pay the end and have a phase, or I can decide the tactical situation is such that I will forego the opportunity, not pay the END and not have that phase available to me. What I would not allow the character to do is decide in mid-phase 3 that he now wants to pay the END for phase 2 and take his "reserved phase". Either you pay the END points when the phase would otherwise start, or forget it. Although, as discussed below, I'm starting to think maybe an earlier commitment would be appropriate.

 

The sad thing about paying every phase (extra phase and regular phase alike) is that the guy getting the greatest benefit pays the least. I'd say +3 onto a 3 Speed in an NCM campaign is more effective than +3 onto a 6 SPD in a spers campaign.

 

Originally posted by Farkling

My House::

If forced to, I would prefer to charge for activation on Post Phase 12, and paying END during the extra phases. If you choose not to use one of the extra phases, then you have turned off the power. If you turn off the power, you may not reactivate until Post Phase 12. This also holds for taking a recovery...since you have to turn it off. I do agree it's wrong to charge the high SPD characters MORE END for a small boost than a low SPD character. Consider this though, this would be a particularly devastating construct in a Heroic campaign with Normal Char Maxima... Steve's ruling are usually system wide, not genre specific...

 

I don;t like the "ph 12" restriction, as it is merely a construct of the artificial breakdown of time into 12 phase turns. There's no magic to when the character activates any other power, and the "speed change" optional system covers this off well enough for me. However, as I think on it, I wonder whether it would be better to make the player commit in his actual phase. So, if you have 3 SPD, +3 costs END, perhaps you should have to pay END of 3 on Phase 12 if you want Phase 2 to be available. In other words, you start "pushing" to move faster in ph 12 and the effect occurs in ph 2. The character would next choose in ph 4 whether he wants to pay 3 END and move in Ph 6, or save the END and move next on Ph 8. If he foregoes the extra phase in Ph 4, and the opposition gathers reinforcements on Ph 5, it's too late - you'll have to wait until Ph 8 to activate "hypermove" again.

 

Originally posted by Farkling

I'd still prefer to go with "Susceptible to SPD usage over 4", or to put Side Effects on the extra pips of SPD.

It's a construct...of course there are flaws.

 

Whichever method you choose will have pros and cons. Make that Susceptibility per turn, for example, with 1d6 for each extra phase used, and the character avoids the detrimental effects for all phases occuring in the last turn of battle (which, in my experience, is a significant portion of all combat turns)

[JmOz]

Something to consider:

 

+1 Speed, costs end=7 points

 

1d6 Aid to speed, +4 limit, costs end, 8 points

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by JmOz

Something to consider:

 

+1 Speed, costs end=7 points

 

1d6 Aid to speed, +4 limit, costs end, 8 points

 

+1 Speed costs 10 points, costs no END and doesn't require any actions to make it happen. Limiting speed as "costs END" doesn't save a heck of a lot.

[Hugh Neilson]

On reflection, my assertion that you should pay END for the bonus SPD in each phase of use also has a pretty big hole. Each phase of use only provides +1 Spd being used, so should only be 1 END.

 

The problem with SPD is that it's an unusal characteristic. It's the only characteristic which is actually used by the turn, rather than by the phase, and the only one with an absolute maximum. This is what makes applying Costs END so weird.

 

Compounding this, Speed is actually relatively cheap for the benefit it provides.

 

The more I think about it, the more I come to agree with Farkling's preference to simply find another approach. A minor side effect would work, but that brings us back to how often this happens (phase or turn), but I think the susceptibility is the best approach. It's likely Very Common to use your extra Speed, so say 1d6 END loss each turn for each extra phase used (noting that 2d6 END equates to 1d6 STUN) and you get a 15 or 20 point disad. Plus, this is actually disadvantageous enough to be worth some points - average 3.5 END per extra phase.

[Mr. Negative]

How about:

 

+4 Speed (40 Active Points), Major Side Effect always occurs and does a predefined amount of damage (3d6 END Drain Standard Effect) (-3/4)

 

This costs 22 points and gives you a speed boost which immediately drains 18 END (9 Character points worth). Alternatively, you could write up a lesser END drain, and make it continuous:

 

+4 Speed (40 Active), Minor Side Effect Always Occurs and Does a Predefined Amount of Damage (1d6 Continuous END Drain, Standard Effect) (-1/4)

 

This one costs 32 Real Points and the Side Effect (which is equivalent to 20 Active Points of effect) drains 6 END per phase. If you stop using the Speed, you stop losing the END, and, of course, if you don't do anything in a Phase, you can probably use your REC to regain the END lost to the Drain that phase. Technically, the Minor Side Effect only needs to be 15 points, but Drain is 10 point per d6.

[Farkling]

THAT format is close to my choice Mr. N

 

And it gets around the messiness of bring forced to turn your SPD "ofF" in order to take a REC. I like it.

[Hugh Neilson]

If Mr. Negative can cut and paste, so can I

 

Originally posted by Mr. Negative

+4 Speed (40 Active Points), Major Side Effect always occurs and does a predefined amount of damage (3d6 END Drain Standard Effect) (-3/4)

 

This costs 22 points and gives you a speed boost which immediately drains 18 END (9 Character points worth).

 

You could also reduce the cost to 16 points, a big 6 points extra, at the cost of leaving the roll for the side effect. Now you average 21 END cost, but risk fluctuations in that amount. Reduce the cost to 20 by making it a -1 side effect (4d6 END drain) and you average 14 END, and need a pretty high roll to beat the 18 charged above. It would likely be more efficient (but riskier) to use that approach. Spend the 2 points you saved on END.

 

Save 18 CP at the cost of 18 END for each use of the power. Actually, I don't see a more practical way to achieve the effect. As an alternative, you could take costs END (-1/2), 3x END (-1), only costs END to activate (cut limitation by half to -3/4 in total), and get the same -3/4 limitation. You now only lose 12 END for starting up the power.

 

Problem is, while 12 END for 4 extra phases is 3 END per phase (and may be reasonable), technically I think the power can then remain up indefinitely. Since you only paid END on startup, I'm not convinced you must shut the power down to take a recovery (off PS 12, of course).

 

Without any "rules support", I'm inclined to say I would allow this on one of two bases. One - you must shut the power down if you wisah to take a recovery other than PS 12 (which may be correct anyway). Two - the power is "activated" once per turn, so you pay 12 END each turn to maintain the power. Now we're paying 3 END per bonus phase, which doesn't seem unreasonable on either side. [To me - the player will call it highway robbery, and Farkling will call me a munchkin enabler for considering it

 

Originally posted by Mr. Negative

+4 Speed (40 Active), Minor Side Effect Always Occurs and Does a Predefined Amount of Damage (1d6 Continuous END Drain, Standard Effect) (-1/4)

 

This one costs 32 Real Points and the Side Effect (which is equivalent to 20 Active Points of effect) drains 6 END per phase. If you stop using the Speed, you stop losing the END, and, of course, if you don't do anything in a Phase, you can probably use your REC to regain the END lost to the Drain that phase. Technically, the Minor Side Effect only needs to be 15 points, but Drain is 10 point per d6.

 

I think the 1 1/2 d6 side effect mentioned below is more in the game, but that's now 5 points per phase (1/2 die will average 2 so that should be the standard effect). Given the nominal variance and frequency of die rolls, I think you're wasting points to go with a standard effect. Mind you, if you figure the character is almost certain to have a base Speed of 3 or 4, he's spending 35 or 40 END per turn on this - the power is self-defeating.

 

OVERALL: I think either side effect or susceptibility works better than SPD - Costs END due to the mechanics of speed. Costs END only to activate also works reasonably well if appropriately defined, but no way would I let a player spend 12 END when he wakes up and keep +4 Speed running for free until he's forced to shut the power down. "SPD costs END" in any formn should mean significant END while the SPD is in use.

 

Speed that takes an END toll isn't unreasonable, at least in my opinion. The bigger question is whether you would allow someone to achieve a Speed that high in any case. I'd be pretty leery of +4 SPD in, say, Fantasy Hero without some pretty crushing limits. Definitely time to take the player aside and discuss the availability of this effect to NPC's as well.

 

In a Champions campaign, it may not be as devestating, depending on the character, but a high Speed remains very valuable, so it would definitely be a character by character decision. Speeds above a certain level is a definite "Stop Sign" in my books.

[zornwil]

My problem with making a boost to SPD intriniscally cost END (I mean for maintaining the SPD, not the boost itself) is that it is an exception compared to any other characteristic you would boost.

 

Perhaps the real solution for the HERO system is to redefine SPD - is it a characteristic...or a power?? HERO defines MD as a power even though its base, if you buy the power, is derived from characteristics. Perhaps SPD should be the same; at least in this event all the exceptional things about it fall into the "powers are different" category.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by zornwil

Perhaps the real solution for the HERO system is to redefine SPD - is it a characteristic...or a power?? HERO defines MD as a power even though its base, if you buy the power, is derived from characteristics. Perhaps SPD should be the same; at least in this event all the exceptional things about it fall into the "powers are different" category.

 

I think the bigger problem is that Speed is not open-ended, which creates some problems. Actually, if you want "costs END" to work, move your game to a more randomized system. I've never experimented with any myself, but one approach is "everyone roll d12 - if it's equal to or less than SPD, you get a phase this segment". Another is a standard deck of cards. Ace - All who would move on phase 1.

Other #'s - All who would move that phase

Jack - Ph 11

Queen - Ph 12

King - Post Seg 12 recovery.

 

I think I'd favour the cards - at least after 52 phases, everyone had four full turns.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

I think the bigger problem is that Speed is not open-ended, which creates some problems. Actually, if you want "costs END" to work, move your game to a more randomized system. I've never experimented with any myself, but one approach is "everyone roll d12 - if it's equal to or less than SPD, you get a phase this segment". Another is a standard deck of cards. Ace - All who would move on phase 1.

Other #'s - All who would move that phase

Jack - Ph 11

Queen - Ph 12

King - Post Seg 12 recovery.

 

I think I'd favour the cards - at least after 52 phases, everyone had four full turns.

 

This highlights SPD's biggest importance currently - predictability. It's not just that I move faster, I know WHEN I'll move and with just some observation, it doesn't take long to figure out when you'll move. I don't have a problem with this. I think it fits heroic playing quite well, giving the kinds of split-second mvoes seen in that sort of world. But it is another lack of realism.

 

I wouldn't use it, but that's a good suggestion as are other such SPD randomizations. It would probably work especially well in a sub-super or low-powered game.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by zornwil

I wouldn't use it, but that's a good suggestion as are other such SPD randomizations. It would probably work especially well in a sub-super or low-powered game.

 

I probably wouldn't change the system either (although a scenario where time is somehow messed up might make it appropriate for a scene or two). The susceptibility, side effect or pay to activate mechanisms can make it work without dropping the system wholesale.

 

I think this could get frustrating in a lower power (and lower speed) game as we get several phases where no one acts.

 

Dice rolls, of course, mean you will eventually have a combat where the brick moves every segment and the MA not at all, due to lucky dice.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

II think this could get frustrating in a lower power (and lower speed) game as we get several phases where no one acts.

 

Dice rolls, of course, mean you will eventually have a combat where the brick moves every segment and the MA not at all, due to lucky dice.

 

But in a lower power/lower speed game you can use a d4 (assuming 4 is the max) or 3 cards or if it's really low-powered a coin! Heads, you go, heads or tails, I go!

 

Yeah, I suppose if you're being "realistic" though you'd get the odd situation where that brick/MA thing could happen. Like if the MA guy had a bad cold and the brick was feeling especially good about himself - I think the die rolls simulate things like that and you have to kind of "back into" it sometimes. Although I hate the fact I can't recall an example right now, some of the funniest moments are when a series of die rolls leads a player to create a funny story around why it went that way.

[Grailknight]

IMO, the main question of this debate centers around the interpretation of "costs END" and the use of STR for comparison. "Costs END" is normally applied to CHAR and powers that do not cost END to use. STR is the only Char which normally costs to use, applying "cost END" means that you would need to spend END each phase to HAVE the extra STR even if you didn't use it. If you bought any other CHAR like DEX or PD with costs END then you would expect to pay END every phase for the use of that extra ability. SPD is only problematic because of the associated game mechanics and in many ways is subject to different rules just as STR is. That said, I would treat the extra speed as an all or nothing power like an Ultra slot and make it cost one END on each phase the character is entitled to move.(Whether from natural or boosted SPD). This means no REC while the power is on.