Grimble Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 I just finished watching a documentary on the NSA, mostly dealing with 911...anyway,the reason I posted this is the end sentence of the show. How much information is too much information? Well. How much is too much...in a superhero campaign and with super tech. Where is the limit to gaining intel on the world and on the citizens of the USA? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Re: The Spy Factory The government in general prefers that the general populace be treated like shrooms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimble Posted February 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Re: The Spy Factory I agree, but lets assume that you are answering this question as someone who may have some say as to how the NSA may be able to continue to monitor the USA and the world... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teflon Billy Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Re: The Spy Factory I think you are going to have to explain just what scope we are talking about here for your supers-world. Are we talking superscience scan-the-worlds-phone-calls in under a second? Which means not much more difference than the current ethical discussions of today. Or are we talking about Psi-Ops division within NSA mindscanning entire cities to find the terrorist cells and sending in a wet-work team from CIA made up of medium-level (35-50 STR) MA bricks to kill everyone. This level of government funded super use nescessitates the total reevaluation of where the ethics are being discussed. TB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimble Posted February 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Re: The Spy Factory Let's assume a tech-level and paranormal level of the cannon Champions Universe. What do you think the NSA would be up to...And what would they legally be able to be up to? The 2 needn't be the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burrito Boy Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Re: The Spy Factory I'm watching it right now and what bothers me more than the level of information gathering is the refusal of NSA to share important information with the CIA and FBI. What is the purpose of having such organizations if they don't work together to prevent terrorist attacks? To make this relevant to Champions: How would supers involved in intelligence gathering deal with that kind of non-cooperation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Re: The Spy Factory When eating alphabet soup, the letters don't always play well together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teflon Billy Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Re: The Spy Factory I'm watching it right now and what bothers me more than the level of information gathering is the refusal of NSA to share important information with the CIA and FBI. What is the purpose of having such organizations if they don't work together to prevent terrorist attacks? To make this relevant to Champions: How would supers involved in intelligence gathering deal with that kind of non-cooperation? Don't have that in game. The real life reasons for some of this lack of information sharing (Not revealing sources and methods) is really really boring (and is not really that big of a firewall between the CIA. The FBI due to it not being exclusively involved with Intelligence gathering makes them the odd man our and suspect as far as being able to trust the organization with classified) Players don't want to get bogged down with that kind of crap. TB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimble Posted February 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Re: The Spy Factory Actually, I like to get my characters involved with that "crap". I wouldn't say it would get anyone bogged down. If you can't find a way to use 3 letter agencies in your Champs campaign without it bogging things down,then you shouldn't use them at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burrito Boy Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Re: The Spy Factory It's not a matter of getting into the real life reasons but dealing with the results. In the documentary, the FBI (or maybe it was CIA) went to the NSA asking them for the Bin Laden conversations the NSA had recorded. When the NSA refused, the FBI set up their own surveilance program. But because they were unable to monitor satellite communications, they were only able to get half of the conversations. They took what they had to the NSA and said, in effect, "Look, we have this much. Can you give us the other half?" The NSA refused. So how do the characters deal with this? Let's assume they work for the FBI or CIA but can't get some needed information from the NSA. Do they station a mentalist near the NSA complex to read the minds of agents as they go to and leave work? Does the entire team stage a Watergate style break in? (Hopefully not getting caught in the process.) Dark Champions characters might not bat an eye at these types of underhanded actions. But Champions characters would likely have more reservations and that could make for some good roleplaying as the characters debate how far they should go to get what they need. And if they decide to break in to a building, there's a caper to plan and play out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinecone Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 Re: The Spy Factory It's not a matter of getting into the real life reasons but dealing with the results. In the documentary, the FBI (or maybe it was CIA) went to the NSA asking them for the Bin Laden conversations the NSA had recorded. When the NSA refused, the FBI set up their own surveilance program. But because they were unable to monitor satellite communications, they were only able to get half of the conversations. They took what they had to the NSA and said, in effect, "Look, we have this much. Can you give us the other half?" The NSA refused. So how do the characters deal with this? Let's assume they work for the FBI or CIA but can't get some needed information from the NSA. Do they station a mentalist near the NSA complex to read the minds of agents as they go to and leave work? Does the entire team stage a Watergate style break in? (Hopefully not getting caught in the process.) Dark Champions characters might not bat an eye at these types of underhanded actions. But Champions characters would likely have more reservations and that could make for some good roleplaying as the characters debate how far they should go to get what they need. And if they decide to break in to a building, there's a caper to plan and play out. Well they certainly could, but it would be illegal....They could argue that the end justifys the means, but it's unlikely that they would prevail. Maybe Mind controll a NSA agent? If they get the "thinks it's their own idea' level at least they have a buffer from getting caught. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NestorDRod Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 Re: The Spy Factory You have no need-to-know, citizen. Move along. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimble Posted February 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 Re: The Spy Factory Looks like Burrito Boy has taken over this thread with a different question then I originally posed... 1. What kind of cohert tech would there be in a Champs universe? 2. What sort of serveillence would be legal in a world with superhumans? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burrito Boy Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 Re: The Spy Factory Looks like Burrito Boy has taken over this thread with a different question then I originally posed... 1. What kind of cohert tech would there be in a Champs universe? 2. What sort of serveillence would be legal in a world with superhumans? Sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimble Posted February 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 Re: The Spy Factory No prob,B-Boy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nagisawa Takumi Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 Re: The Spy Factory "The Spy Factory" sounds like a great name for a Henchman temp. agency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 Re: The Spy Factory 1. What kind of cohert tech would there be in a Champs universe? 2. What sort of serveillence would be legal in a world with superhumans? 1. Look at the source books. Look what the various characters have. Decide what of that would actually end up in government hands through reverse engineering, or through different companies that do contract work, that may or may not have gained tech through illegal means. 2. Same as we have today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinecone Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 Re: The Spy Factory In my games Telepathy is illegal, greatly feared, and lusted after by every agency... The spytech is limited to James Bond level (ie; pretty dang out there!) The CIA in paticular has a spacial section for PSI-spys and a semi "rogue" anti-telepath black ops unit (Project Hellhound, and Project Bloodhound) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nagisawa Takumi Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 Re: The Spy Factory In my games Telepathy is illegal, greatly feared, and lusted after by every agency... The spytech is limited to James Bond level (ie; pretty dang out there!) The CIA in paticular has a spacial section for PSI-spys and a semi "rogue" anti-telepath black ops unit (Project Hellhound, and Project Bloodhound) Off topic: The Bond 'Spygear' is based off REAL world technology, most of the stuff you see him loaded with you CAN do with our level of tech. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tandem Esk Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 Re: The Spy Factory You have too much information if you can't process it. Which is what happened with the Towers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulcan Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 Re: The Spy Factory It's not a matter of getting into the real life reasons but dealing with the results. In the documentary' date=' the FBI (or maybe it was CIA) went to the NSA asking them for the Bin Laden conversations the NSA had recorded. When the NSA refused, the FBI set up their own surveilance program. But because they were unable to monitor satellite communications, they were only able to get half of the conversations. They took what they had to the NSA and said, in effect, "Look, we have this much. Can you give us the other half?" The NSA refused.[/quote'] In our game, one of our PC's retired from play... because he was elected president. So it would go like this: PC on behalf of the FBI Director: "The FBI would like a copy of phone transcripts of bin Lauden that the NSA recorded, but they won't share it with them..." President Fielding: "Say no more. Hang on just a minute." (Arranges three-way call with the NSA director) "Mr. Director, I understand you have been turning down the FBI's requests for information based on terrorist activity. Is this correct?" NSA Director: "Yes, Mr. President, that is true. They have no need to know." President Fielding: "I say they do. Log that in your order books right now. And Mr. Director?" NSA Director: "Yes, Mr. President?" President Fielding: "We will not have this conversation again. I might have it with your sucessor. Do you understand?" NSA Director (clearly cowed): "Yes, Mr. President." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinecone Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 Re: The Spy Factory Off topic: The Bond 'Spygear' is based off REAL world technology' date=' most of the stuff you see him loaded with you CAN do with our level of tech.[/quote'] Sure, but His gear is real world tech that plays by Cinematic rules...and thus is Better than Real! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NestorDRod Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 Re: The Spy Factory Off topic: The Bond 'Spygear' is based off REAL world technology' date=' most of the stuff you see him loaded with you CAN do with our level of tech.[/quote'] Really? You mean we have the capability of building a laser weapon powerful enough to cut through steel chain and yet be small enough to be placed, power supply and all, inside a wristwatch? Imagine that! That said, yes, there were a number of real toys that made appearances in the movies. The one that stands out in my mind was Moore's jet-bike in The Spy Who Loved Me, which pretty much single-handedly kick-started the whole Jet-Ski phenomenon. Also, John Gardner made a point of using real-world technology in his Bond novels. My favorite was the tear-gas canisters in Bond's SAAB Turbo's wheel wells. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karma Posted February 14, 2009 Report Share Posted February 14, 2009 Re: The Spy Factory In our game, one of our PC's retired from play... because he was elected president. So it would go like this: PC on behalf of the FBI Director: "The FBI would like a copy of phone transcripts of bin Lauden that the NSA recorded, but they won't share it with them..." President Fielding: "Say no more. Hang on just a minute." (Arranges three-way call with the NSA director) "Mr. Director, I understand you have been turning down the FBI's requests for information based on terrorist activity. Is this correct?" NSA Director: "Yes, Mr. President, that is true. They have no need to know." President Fielding: "I say they do. Log that in your order books right now. And Mr. Director?" NSA Director: "Yes, Mr. President?" President Fielding: "We will not have this conversation again. I might have it with your sucessor. Do you understand?" NSA Director (clearly cowed): "Yes, Mr. President." NSA Director (after putting the phone down): Looks like Fielding is going to be 'hands on'. Time to put the contigency into place. Have the white file on Osama Bin-Laden shipped to the FBI. Oh and see if we have anything on Fielding would you? Anything Impeachment worthy? Clinton was the same you know. Hadn't been for that wife of his we'd have had him out on his ear... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karma Posted February 14, 2009 Report Share Posted February 14, 2009 Re: The Spy Factory Sure' date=' but His gear is real world tech that plays by Cinematic rules...and thus is Better than Real![/quote'] There is actually some real world gear that was 'too unbelievable' for a Bond movie and so was left out of one of the Brosnon movies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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