spells and active cost

[ghost-angel]

Re: spells and active cost

 

There really isn't a simple device (that I know of). I managed to hodgepodge a working magic system out of Hero' date=' but it was very kludgy. On the other hand, it was fairly easy for the players to use and it represented the flavor of magic that I wanted fairly easily.[/quote']

 

I wouldn't call something that players found easy to use and captured the flavor as "kludgy" - I call that successfully using the Hero System to fit your vision.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: spells and active cost

 

A very simple and quick fix for this would be to base the RSR penalty on Active points as normal, but then to apply a modifier to that penalty based on the number of limitations the spell posseses.

 

For example a Fireball spell of 60 active points with -2 worth of Limitations would have a natural -6 skill penalty, however because of the -2 in limitations, that is reduced to -4 skill penalty. Round the fractions up. Thus:

.25 to 1 (-1)

1.25 to 2 (-2)

2.25 to 3 (-3)

3.25 to 4 (-4)

 

And so on and so forth.

 

Very simple and quick to figure out.

[CTaylor]

Re: spells and active cost

 

Well not all of the limitations necessarily should make the spell easier to cast: a spell that only affects wolves isn't going to help focus the magic, but concentration would. Almost like there are two different kinds of limitations. Some advantages might not even increase the magic skill roll, and others would.

[Markdoc]

Re: spells and active cost

 

Variable limitation. I'd suggest requiring that at base all magic spells take a (-3/4) variable limit. That means you need a total of -1 1/2 in limitations.

 

You could do that with "Requires a hard Skill roll: Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 5 Active Points" plus gestures and incantations or you could take an easier skill roll with gestures and incantation and concentration, or you could, if you had the right foci did a little chanting and wiggling about and took a little extra time, avoid a skill roll altogether. If you were really desperate, you could take a side effect.

 

Since the rules state that "The GM may define which Limitations characters can use to satisfy the Variable Limitation" you can decide - incantations, gestures concentration, extra time, foci, side effect - they all sound good. Only works on Whales, probably not. "Only works on the grave of a twice-killed necromancer" might well.

 

This gives you a great deal of freedom as a GM and lets players decide how much of a penalty they are going to take and mix it around on the fly.

 

cheers, Mark

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: spells and active cost

 

Variable limitation. I'd suggest requiring that at base all magic spells take a (-3/4) variable limit. That means you need a total of -1 1/2 in limitations.

 

This is also an excellent way of achieving the desired result for a specific magic system.

 

(Of course...you must spread Rep around... )

[CTaylor]

Re: spells and active cost

 

That's not exactly what I had in mind. The limitations are focal efforts to make the magic easier to cast, so the mana and magic skill roll are better - not just things people can do optionally in whatever order or combination they wish.

[BrilliantHelm]

Re: spells and active cost

 

This what I do. After all' date=' an RSR is simply a skill roll and should be subject to all the various bonuses/penalties for skill rolls. In fact the magic system in my current game has a series of built-in modifiers to encourage players to use them.

 

If you do this, then RSR only really becomes an issue for powerful spells cast in emergency situations. If you can afford to assemble the required magical apparatus and take an extra minute or two, you can reduce the RSR penalty enormously.

 

cheers, Mark

 

I don't use RSR. It's not worth the hassle and rarely found in fantasy literature. When did Gandalf fail a skill roll or Merlin?

 

The -1/2 may make 1 point of difference in cost per spell with other limitations (incantations, gestures, foci, use limitations, etc.).

 

I can just imagine: "Gandalf hurls fire at the worgs, then turns to face the other wargs, and the fire fizzles in his hand." Not very heroic.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: spells and active cost

 

I don't use RSR. It's not worth the hassle and rarely found in fantasy literature. When did Gandalf fail a skill roll or Merlin?

 

The -1/2 may make 1 point of difference in cost per spell with other limitations (incantations, gestures, foci, use limitations, etc.).

 

I can just imagine: "Gandalf hurls fire at the worgs, then turns to face the other wargs, and the fire fizzles in his hand." Not very heroic.

 

 

Gandalf and Merlin are perfect examples of master mages with Magic Skill Rolls of 25 or less. They are both mages of the highest order who have achieved a level of skill other mages can only dream of.

 

An apprenticed mage, however, absolutely could flub a spell under stressful conditions. In fact, I've read several fantasy novels where that very thing happens. Most PC's begin closer to the apprentice level than they do to the uber-mage level. I believe that Requires a Skill Roll is far more in genre than the typical D&D style automatic casting method.

[ghost-angel]

Re: spells and active cost

 

Earthsea is an example of source material where Mages could be built with RSR.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: spells and active cost

 

The Wheel of Time's The One Power utilizes a skill roll mechanic as well.

[Nolgroth]

Re: spells and active cost

 

The Wheel of Time's The One Power utilizes a skill roll mechanic as well.

For the neophyte yes. Over time, the characters who were new to channeling in the beginning were able to do so later with apparent routine. The could be simulated with a high Skill roll, but it could just as easily be simulated by buying off the RSR limitation completely.

 

Oooh. Seems like old times. Arguing the Wheel of Time channeling system.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: spells and active cost

 

For the neophyte yes. Over time, the characters who were new to channeling in the beginning were able to do so later with apparent routine. The could be simulated with a high Skill roll, but it could just as easily be simulated by buying off the RSR limitation completely.

 

Oooh. Seems like old times. Arguing the Wheel of Time channeling system.

 

 

True, but even an old pro could Still themselves if they tried something too big and pulled in too much of the One Power...

 

Thats not even bringing up the fact that the author continuously talks about various characters "skill" with different aspects of the One Power.

[sbarron]

Re: spells and active cost

 

Well not all of the limitations necessarily should make the spell easier to cast: a spell that only affects wolves isn't going to help focus the magic' date=' but concentration would. Almost like there are two different kinds of limitations. Some advantages might not even increase the magic skill roll, and others would.[/quote']CTaylor, mechanically speaking, you're wandering off the HERO reservation here. Personally, I think its great that you're thinking outside the box. I hope you can find a solution, even if it violates some of the core definitions of the HERO system. But most HERO gamers are instinctivley going to try to steer you back into the mainstream.

 

You've seen the response to your RSR Mod = Real Points/10 method. If you don't think that method will work for you now, you might have better luck designing another system for calculating RSR, and asking how everyone thinks that one works.

 

My new suggestion is that you make a list of each group of limits and advantages that you envision, and figure out how each group is going to effect the calculation of RSR. Then design a formula that gets you a RSR modifier that you think is appropriate.

 

It looks like you need a list for...

 

1) Limits that decrease the MSR.

2) Limits that don't decrease the MSR.

3) Advantages that increase the MSR.

4) Advantages that don't increase the MSR.

 

The formula itself could be anything. So long as it generally returns values that you think are appropriate for the MSR modifier and Mana use. NuSoard's straight subtraction system seems to work pretty well. Just be sure to only include advantages that increase difficulty, and limits that decrease it.

 

Or any other formula you might think up...

 

Good luck.

[CTaylor]

Re: spells and active cost

 

I think you're basically right about the instinct of Hero players, and that's not a bad thing.

 

I'm trying to figure out a way of doing it without needing to go through and re-figure every single spell by hand, since I have over 400 worked up and in print. Oh well.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: spells and active cost

 

I think you're basically right about the instinct of Hero players, and that's not a bad thing.

 

I'm trying to figure out a way of doing it without needing to go through and re-figure every single spell by hand, since I have over 400 worked up and in print. Oh well.

 

Did you see my suggestion of simply subtracting the level of the Limitations (rounded up) from the normal Skill roll modifier? Its very simple and the more limitations makes the skill roll easier, which is what you were complaining about in your original post.

[Rapier]

Re: spells and active cost

 

I understand what you are trying to do, and I applaud your effort.

 

But if you are trying to come up with some hard and fast rule, I'm afraid you are doomed to failure.

 

To my mind, the main problem you are going to run into is not the "12d6 EB" vs "12d6 EB Only vs Fanfare Pattern Spoons" but instead the "12d6 EB" vs the "150 Active Point Let me talk to my mother regardless of where she is on the planet."

 

Anyone that has spent any time in Dark Champions has realised the disparity in some simple effects. A Taser is built on considerably more points than an assault rifle. It just kind of happens. Does the 'Speak to Mum' spell really warrant an Active Point cost two or three times as high as a spell that will, in all likihood turn a person into a fine ashy powder?

 

I think your best bet would be to classify a few 'levels' of spells. Call them I through IV. Class I spells are -1 RSR per 20 Active. Class II spells are -1 RSR per 10, Class III -1 RSR per 5 Class IV -1 per 2. Then just go through the spell lists and decide which is which.

 

I would also give situational modifiers. A PS: Combat Mage may allow a decreased penalty (or even a bonus) while casting spells in the thick of combat. Necromancy spells in a graveyard? +2! Casting Noxious Cloud in a chilli-dog stand? +6!

[CTaylor]

Re: spells and active cost

 

Did you see my suggestion of simply subtracting the level of the Limitations (rounded up) from the normal Skill roll modifier?

 

I did, but as he pointed out, onlysome of the limitations would gain that benefit, so I'd have to go through every spell and check which apply and which do not which is more than I'd rather do. Probably no way to do it without a crapload of work.

 

And like Rapier points out, active costs of abilities in hero don't always give real equivalent power. I can make a really big area sunny and comfortable or show a movie in the sky to thousands of people... or for the same price mind control the president of the US or defend myself from a tank shell. Sometimes active cost is misleading, but its the simplest way to handle an issue.

[ghost-angel]

Re: spells and active cost

 

This isn't a nice easy formula, but you could just give every Spell a Side Effect (Requires Skill Roll at -X) instead of the RSR itself.

 

You have to manually figure out the X though, so it's not exactly a useful solution.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: spells and active cost

 

An errant keystroke just wiped out everything I'd written.

 

Let me sum up.

 

Do it as a campaign level ground rule. (Examples abound among Steve's sample magic systems in FH). If you buy a spell with a "Casting" type Limitation, you've learned the spell easier (it costs less points) because you've learned using a crutch to make it easier. So you don't change the way spells are bought. Just say that any of those "Casting" limitations can be used for any spell to make the spell easier. Say, a +1 to the Magic Roll or -1 End Cost per -1/4 (if you're feeling generous) or -1/2 (if not) worth of these "Voluntary" Limitations.

 

So an apprentice magician might buy all his spells with RSR, Concentrate, Extra Time, Gestures, and Incantations. His spells are cheap, but power hogs and rather difficult. As he buys off some of the limitations, his SR and END cost for the spell remain the same, but now he isn't required to use all of his "crutches" and so when he chooses to do so it makes the spell either easier or more efficient.

 

Done and done.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: spells and active cost

 

I did' date=' but as he pointed out, only[i']some[/i] of the limitations would gain that benefit, so I'd have to go through every spell and check which apply and which do not which is more than I'd rather do. Probably no way to do it without a crapload of work.

 

And like Rapier points out, active costs of abilities in hero don't always give real equivalent power. I can make a really big area sunny and comfortable or show a movie in the sky to thousands of people... or for the same price mind control the president of the US or defend myself from a tank shell. Sometimes active cost is misleading, but its the simplest way to handle an issue.

 

 

I see. Well then there isn't an easy answer for this "problem". I personally do not have a problem with the rules for Requires Skill Roll as they are written. I tend to see it as either;

A) Manipulating assloads of power (raw active points)

or

The amount of power may be lesser, but requires extremely complex manipulation (such as in the case of creating a large and complex Image to show to onlookers)

 

In either case, the active point penalty is reasonable.

 

As others have pointed out, I allow for various modifiers to the Magic Skill Roll such as taking extra time to cast (+1 per additional step on the Time Chart...this works great for Ritual Magic), adding Spell Components (for spells that don't require them) or higher quality components, Focusing crystals/gems and other implements (staves and wands etc), Circles of Power, Material Links...the list is fairly exhaustive.

[Markdoc]

Re: spells and active cost

 

I don't use RSR. It's not worth the hassle and rarely found in fantasy literature. When did Gandalf fail a skill roll or Merlin?

 

The -1/2 may make 1 point of difference in cost per spell with other limitations (incantations, gestures, foci, use limitations, etc.).

 

I can just imagine: "Gandalf hurls fire at the worgs, then turns to face the other wargs, and the fire fizzles in his hand." Not very heroic.

 

Earthsea is an example of source material where Mages could be built with RSR.

 

Or The Dragon Waiting (where RSR is coupled with Side efefct) - or any one of a dozen other fantasies. RSR seems to be fairly common in fantasy literature. That said, RSR rarely fizzles when it would be unheroic, in fiction, because it's a novel. Heroes rarely die from a lucky hit by an unnamed opponent early in the adventure, either, for the same reason.

 

"Huh. The troll killed Frodo."

"Yeah that spear went right through him. OK, Boromir, I guess you wanted the ring, right?"

 

cheers, Mark

[ghost-angel]

Re: spells and active cost

 

"Huh. The troll killed Frodo."

"Yeah that spear went right through him. OK, Boromir, I guess you wanted the ring, right?"

 

You've been reading my edits haven't you?