Find Weakness, again

[Sean Waters]

I don't like 'Find Weakness', and I think it can be done better as a talent than as a power.

 

I've previously suggested that we model it on reducing defences, but one way of reducing defences is by increasing your attack, and that approach makes even more sense to me.

 

Take this example:

 

Find Weakness: 125 active, 29 real

Aid Relevant attack 10d6 (standard effect: 30 points)

Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per Minute; +1/4)

(125 Active Points)

Self Only (-1/2)

Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (Activation roll reduced by Lack of Weakness; -1/2)

Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (If you fail activation roll you can not try again for a full minute; -1/2)

Activation Roll 14- (-1/2)

Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (Sense based; -1/2)

Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (Only to reduce relevant defences, not to increase actual damage; -1/2)

Limited Power Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness (Each attempt after the first is subject to a cumulative -2 modifier; -1/4)

(29 Real Points)

 

So, 29 points gets you 30 points of increased damage (to neutralise damage only), which is 5DCs or normal or killing damage.

 

That (again using standard effect) is 15/3 damage, 6 points of 'Find Weakness' reduces defences by 3/1 (stun/body). You can (at most) roll the thing twice, for a maximum effect of 6/2 for 6 points.

 

That means for 24 points you can reduce an opponent's effective defence by 12/4 on a single roll or 24/8 on two rolls.

 

That works pretty similarly to Find Weakness on a 14- roll (which costs 25 points), and simulates the power pretty well (but without the odd normal/resistant defences distinction.

 

The advantage to my mind of doing it this way is that the power is far more customisable, and, frankly, that is what Hero is all about. This version is sense based, so you'd need to be able to sense the defences, or at least some way to find a weakness, even if that was indirect. Don;t like it? Ditch it.

 

You can increase the maximum effect by adding effect points to the aid at 1 point per 2 points (before power modifiers).

 

You can change how long the power stays in effect for (this version only lasts a minute - more than enough for most combats - but you could make it much longer if you liked).

 

You can add more powers that you can enhance the damage of by adding the 'variable effect' power modifier.

 

Sure it looks complicated but:

1. we play Hero - that sort of thing shouldn't be scary and

2. lots of talents look complicated but once we understand how they work, they do not present a problem in play.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Find Weakness, again

 

Hmm. Interesting approach. A build based on Naked Armor Piercing might prove interesting as well. It'd probably be closer to the standard Find Weakness, but it wouldn't stack on top of itself and things like Hardened might play better with it.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Find Weakness, again

 

So what's the difference between this approach and Deadly Blow?

That is, would you allow your version to be combined with that Talent?

If not, why even call it Find Weakness?

 

I agree that the current Find Weakness rules are less than satisfying.

However, I think a better replacement is already available.

 

Hit Location Rules.

 

In a game that doesn't use Hit Location Rules just require a minimum 'buy in' to use them (10-20 points) for targeted shots. A character with this ability would still need to devote points towards the actual Hit Location Penalties to take advantage of targeted shots reliably. Now the double-dipping issues with other abilities (like Deadly Blow or Armor Piercing) are mostly resolved.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Find Weakness, again

 

So what's the difference between this approach and Deadly Blow?

That is, would you allow your version to be combined with that Talent?

If not, why even call it Find Weakness?

 

I agree that the current Find Weakness rules are less than satisfying.

However, I think a better replacement is already available.

 

Hit Location Rules.

 

In a game that doesn't use Hit Location Rules just require a minimum 'buy in' to use them (10-20 points) for targeted shots. A character with this ability would still need to devote points towards the actual Hit Location Penalties to take advantage of targeted shots reliably. Now the double-dipping issues with other abilities (like Deadly Blow or Armor Piercing) are mostly resolved.

 

Why call 'find weakness' find weakness? You are not finding anything, so much as exploiting an assumption the presence of the power makes implicit - that everything has weaknesses. The character could be blind, deaf and dumb and it would still work

 

There are striking similarities (and differences) between this and deadly blow (this never adds to damage just reduces defences), and you could also use this as a form of armour piercing, or any number of other concepts which, largely, is the point. Find Weakness (the current power) is not something we really need in the system as a power - it is better - more useful and flexible - as a build. This build could easily combine with 'deadly blow', although as a GM I'd be looking very carefully at a character with such a proliferation of damage adds.

 

The problem with hit location rules is twofold. The first is that they fundamentally change the way we do damage: high DEX = higher damage, subverting the need for so many points in damaging powers. They work OK in heroic games where DEX all tends to be in a relatively narrow range, but less well in superhero games where a high OCV character will dominate. It would be worth 20 points to use hit locations if your character were already high DEX: you'd save that and more on damaging powers

 

The second is less objective, but I don't like the idea of buying in to a different rule set. It is too much of a reminder of the metagame. In addition it is not point balanced at all: there is no way of getting the 'buy in cost' right in game terms - you would have to titrate it for the particular game you are in. The above suggestion gives you more effect if you pay more.

 

I'm not so keen on any Hero game system that uses multipliers because it is difficult to balance as multipliers change the effective cost of everything around them: much better, IMO, to use numbers that add or subtract.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Find Weakness, again

 

There are also other factors to be taken into account.

 

Increased Knockback - is this covered by the "only to decrease defenses" lim?

Adjustment Powers - the AP of the actual power has gone up. How will this affect Drains and Transfers against the power?

Advantages - What if I use an adjutment power to make the attack AE? How about AP?

Stunning - how does this build interact with Stunning in comprison to FW? Coordinated Attacks?

 

I love the idea (many of my posts are based on finding more interesting ways to do things). My question is, does this model what you want better than actually reducing the targets Defenses?

 

Coffee Deprivation Induced Hysteria thought: If I reverse engineer your build, I get something that smells like Drain, one Defense power at a time (+1/4), AVLD vs. Lack of Weakness (+3/4), plus some version of Self Only (-1/2) so everyone get increased damage.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Find Weakness, again

 

There are also other factors to be taken into account.

 

Increased Knockback - is this covered by the "only to decrease defenses" lim?

Adjustment Powers - the AP of the actual power has gone up. How will this affect Drains and Transfers against the power?

Advantages - What if I use an adjutment power to make the attack AE? How about AP?

Stunning - how does this build interact with Stunning in comprison to FW? Coordinated Attacks?

 

I love the idea (many of my posts are based on finding more interesting ways to do things). My question is, does this model what you want better than actually reducing the targets Defenses?

 

Coffee Deprivation Induced Hysteria thought: If I reverse engineer your build, I get something that smells like Drain, one Defense power at a time (+1/4), AVLD vs. Lack of Weakness (+3/4), plus some version of Self Only (-1/2) so everyone get increased damage.

 

We kicked this one around before and the trouble with building it with drain (or supress) is that it requires an attack action whereas boosing your own abilities with a self only power arguably doesn't (or at least any attack action is generally waived, with some official authority), but yes, that is the basic model.

 

To address your questions, this build does not affect KB at all - the increased damage is ONLY to neutralise standard defences. With a tweak tot he build it could also, in effect, neutralise KBR too, but I would struggle to find a rationalle for that.

 

Against adjustment powers (and maybe this requires a further limitation, even if only -0), the base power is affected first. That way the defence reduction is unaffected whilst there is any attack at all, but obviously the damage the combination can do is reduced.

 

Advantages and such - technically this build increases the damage of a 5 point/1d6 power by 3/1 stun/body per 6 points spent onm a single successful roll (or up to 6/2 with two successful rolls). That would mean a more expensive power (either naturally more expensive like Ego Attack or Drain or advantaged) would increase at a slower rate, much as with adding strength to an advantaged HKA. It would still have a proportional effect, but the 'increased damage' would climb at a slower rate with cost.

 

As far as stunning and coordinated attacks go, this approach does not change the numbers, but, obviously more damage is getting through defences, so the chance of stunning increases.

 

A 25 point FW (one attack, 14-) would halve defences. With this build, 24 points would get you, in effect, 12/4 on a single roll. Assuming a 60 point game, with defences of 2DC (normal) and DC (resistant) I'd expect defences of about 24/12.

 

Current FW would reduce defences on one roll to 12/6

This construct would reduce defences to 12/8

 

Current FW would reduce defences on two rolls to 6/3

This construct would reduce defences to 0/4

 

So, not identical but similar effects - both could be devastating. Mind you for a lower point game you would spend less on this construct and for a higher point game you would spend more. The cost of current FW doesn't really scale except tot eh extent that you would expect more powerful characters to perhaps have more Lack of Weakness.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Find Weakness, again

 

Why call 'find weakness' find weakness? You are not finding anything, so much as exploiting an assumption the presence of the power makes implicit - that everything has weaknesses. The character could be blind, deaf and dumb and it would still work

 

There are striking similarities (and differences) between this and deadly blow (this never adds to damage just reduces defences), and you could also use this as a form of armour piercing, or any number of other concepts which, largely, is the point. Find Weakness (the current power) is not something we really need in the system as a power - it is better - more useful and flexible - as a build. This build could easily combine with 'deadly blow', although as a GM I'd be looking very carefully at a character with such a proliferation of damage adds.

 

The problem with hit location rules is twofold. The first is that they fundamentally change the way we do damage: high DEX = higher damage, subverting the need for so many points in damaging powers. They work OK in heroic games where DEX all tends to be in a relatively narrow range, but less well in superhero games where a high OCV character will dominate. It would be worth 20 points to use hit locations if your character were already high DEX: you'd save that and more on damaging powers

 

The second is less objective, but I don't like the idea of buying in to a different rule set. It is too much of a reminder of the metagame. In addition it is not point balanced at all: there is no way of getting the 'buy in cost' right in game terms - you would have to titrate it for the particular game you are in. The above suggestion gives you more effect if you pay more.

 

I'm not so keen on any Hero game system that uses multipliers because it is difficult to balance as multipliers change the effective cost of everything around them: much better, IMO, to use numbers that add or subtract.

 

Fine, increase the Buy-In to 30 points.

 

There already is a precedence for allowing the change of the ruleset (like the Hit Location rules) in the use of Knockback in games that normally use Knockdown if an otherwise 'basic' attack (EB or KA) is built with the Does KB Advantage.

 

Also, what is the 'defense' to being affected by your method?

Why buy Lack of Weakness when more defense is usually a better deal?

 

Using the Hit Location rules instead would allow us to completely eliminate the current unbounded 'Lack of Weakness' construct and replace it with already existing mechanic: the Automaton ability "No Hit Locations" which only costs 10 points. Non-human characters could have subtle defenses to it for free as a 'racial ability' (they have completely different major organ arrangements throughout their bodies). Shapeshifters could probably temporarily move 'vital organs' into different parts of their bodies as well with an appropriate adder.

 

Your math argument is equally valid vs. Damage Reduction if you just replace multiplication with division. Do you have problems with that power as well?

 

I've never liked any of the "buy additional dice only vs. X" Talents because they put a much higher 'minimum' buy-in' on abilities that technically should be available to anyone. With the exception of 'target' what is the real difference between using the Demolition skill to carefully place explosives to blow up a bridge efficiently (less explosives) and using Hit Locations to take down a character faster (less overall damage).

 

Find Weakness as an ability in HERO has always had an intrinsic special effect, accuracy, from which it is impossible to separate from the the ability. If you're going to replace the mechanic but still call the ability

Find Weakness' then why not simplify the mechanic (use an existing one) instead of re-inventing the wheel?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Find Weakness, again

 

KB has been mentioned a couple of times and it strikes me that this sort of build could easily be used for a more tuneable way of building increased KB.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Find Weakness, again

 

Fine, increase the Buy-In to 30 points.

 

There already is a precedence for allowing the change of the ruleset (like the Hit Location rules) in the use of Knockback in games that normally use Knockdown if an otherwise 'basic' attack (EB or KA) is built with the Does KB Advantage.

 

I'm not saying it can not be done I am saying that a 'buy in' is going to be a fixed cost for what is not going to be a fixed effect, given that we have important threshold values like CON for stunning, controlling a 'multiplication' system is problematic. The 'buy in' might scale beautifully for a 60 AP game, but be too expensive to really afford in a 40 AP game and so useful everyone would have it (therefore de facto changing the ruleset for th ewhole game by player proxy rather than GM choice) in a 100 AP game.

 

Also, what is the 'defense' to being affected by your method?

Why buy Lack of Weakness when more defense is usually a better deal?

 

I meant for LOW to reduce the activation roll rather than reduce the effect, just as it does at present with FW.

 

Using the Hit Location rules instead would allow us to completely eliminate the current unbounded 'Lack of Weakness' construct and replace it with already existing mechanic: the Automaton ability "No Hit Locations" which only costs 10 points. Non-human characters could have subtle defenses to it for free as a 'racial ability' (they have completely different major organ arrangements throughout their bodies). Shapeshifters could probably temporarily move 'vital organs' into different parts of their bodies as well with an appropriate adder.

 

I like the idea of shapeshifters/undifferentiated being able to mitigate damage, or at least average it out. Mind you a 10 point power could be added to do that that simply meant that the same damage was caused whereever they were hit - attacks would always cause average damage. Hmm...

 

Your math argument is equally valid vs. Damage Reduction if you just replace multiplication with division. Do you have problems with that power as well?

 

Indeed - another fixed cost power with a substantially different effect at different power levels. You could easily do something like this with Damage Reduction too. There have been any number of discussions over whether fixed price powers should be removed from the system completely. Dam Red is far more widely used than FW though so I'd have to work out a full proposal before presenting an alternative to that.

 

I've never liked any of the "buy additional dice only vs. X" Talents because they put a much higher 'minimum' buy-in' on abilities that technically should be available to anyone. With the exception of 'target' what is the real difference between using the Demolition skill to carefully place explosives to blow up a bridge efficiently (less explosives) and using Hit Locations to take down a character faster (less overall damage).

 

We will have to agree to differ - I do like that sort of construct (although this is built as an adjustment power - similar effect) - as you can clearly see the effect: you KNOW that the character has a 2d6 attack but 3d6 against demons - it makes balancing challenges much more straightforward.

 

Find Weakness as an ability in HERO has always had an intrinsic special effect, accuracy, from which it is impossible to separate from the the ability. If you're going to replace the mechanic but still call the ability

Find Weakness' then why not simplify the mechanic (use an existing one) instead of re-inventing the wheel?

 

I am trying to build this with existing mechanics.

 

I disagree that 'Find Weakness has an intrinsic special effect of accuracy though. Logically if you can see a specific weakness then you have to be accurate to hit it but FW, although a sensory power, has no sense link at present - you do not need senses to use it, so the accuracy hypothesis doesn't work well.

 

Hmm maybe FW is a sense in itself: Flash to Find Weakness, anyone?

 

In fact the best FW explanation I've found is sonic feedback - scream up the vocal range until you hit their own personal brown note - which you'll be able to detect by the effect on them - and then keep using it. That does not require any accuracy at all, except in hitting the fight frequency.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Find Weakness, again

 

...

I am trying to build this with existing mechanics.

 

I disagree that 'Find Weakness has an intrinsic special effect of accuracy though. Logically if you can see a specific weakness then you have to be accurate to hit it but FW, although a sensory power, has no sense link at present - you do not need senses to use it, so the accuracy hypothesis doesn't work well.

 

Hmm maybe FW is a sense in itself: Flash to Find Weakness, anyone?

 

In fact the best FW explanation I've found is sonic feedback - scream up the vocal range until you hit their own personal brown note - which you'll be able to detect by the effect on them - and then keep using it. That does not require any accuracy at all, except in hitting the fight frequency.

 

Let me clarify my earlier statement.

 

Any sfx explanation for the use of Find Weakness that doesn't use 'accuracy' as its basis is actually better represented by other abilities. A Naked Armor Piercing or NND Advantage with RSR would cover your example quite nicely. I challenge you to come up with a sfx for Find Weakness that is not 'accuracy' and iat the same time is not also easily/better represented by Armor Piercing and/or NND.

 

I think the #1 issue I have with both the current Find Weakness as well as your proposed replacement is the issue of 'target lock'. Why does succeeding with it once in a combat mean that it will work on subsequent attacks vs. the same target? That's another argument for AP as well. But you're wanting to make this a Talent again (closer to a Skill I'm guessing). The fixed cost argument against using HitLoc rules loses some steam here. Unless HitLoc-boy has +8 PSL's vs vs. Hit Locations he ends up reducing his chances of actually hitting a target whenever he attempts a targeted shot.

 

The other potential defense against HitLoc targeting would be Defense Maneuver. I think its use could include a bonus vs. specific targeted locations (like the head) as well.

 

Also, anyone can defend against attacks targeting a specific Hit Location.

It's called Dodging.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Find Weakness, again

 

Hmm maybe FW is a sense in itself: Flash to Find Weakness, anyone?

Actually, FW is a Sense and can be Flashed. Believe me this time?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Find Weakness, again

 

 

That works pretty similarly to Find Weakness on a 14- roll (which costs 25 points), and simulates the power pretty well

....

 

I think it's quite ironic that you are trying to recreate or simulate a Power (but formerly a Talent) when that ability itself was originally a quick and easy simulation of Hit Locations before those rules were even invented for HERO.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Find Weakness, again

 

Let me clarify my earlier statement.

 

Any sfx explanation for the use of Find Weakness that doesn't use 'accuracy' as its basis is actually better represented by other abilities. A Naked Armor Piercing or NND Advantage with RSR would cover your example quite nicely. I challenge you to come up with a sfx for Find Weakness that is not 'accuracy' and iat the same time is not also easily/better represented by Armor Piercing and/or NND.

 

We need to look at what FW does to come up with a possible sfx...it reduces the defences of a target against your attacks. It requires a 'skill' roll, so it is not automatic. FW allows you to keep reducing the defences if you keep making the rolls. FW is not part of the attack as such and so doesn;t firectly contribute to the active cost.

 

NND and AP are automatic - unless you limit them then they always work.

 

So, I think there are a number of possible sfx, although I have to say from the start I don't think I've ever found an sfx that really does it for me with FW.

 

Let us look at 'Accuracy' for a start, specifically accuracy in terms of 'hit locations'. There is some support in 5ER for the accuracy hypothesis because one of the modifiers to the roll is 'unusual/alien structure/physiology'.

 

We presume that hitting someone in the head hurts more than hitting them elsewhere. If that was how Find Weakness worked, then using it against someone with 0 PD should hurt more - but it doesn't. This is not about hitting where it hurts - it is about hitting where you are not well protected.

 

Now hitting a place where the target is not well protected could be a matter of accuracy, but it could eqaully be a matter of luck - so that is a possible additional sfx. Of course the nature of luck is that it is not a constant thing, so FW is not an ideal fit for that for the reason you identify below.

 

Going back to my suggestion about finding the resonant frequency of the target - I'm going to (half) justify that. Finding a resonant frequency is a combination of luck and judgement. You can tune in, but it is certainly not automatic - and in some combats you simply fail to tune in precisely enough to bypass defences - of course this suffers from the same problem that the 'hit locations' hypothesis does - you ought to be causing more damage irrespective of defences.

 

Then we have the targeting computer, which analyses your target, bathing it in Peerinium Rays, detecting any microflaws in the defences and then providing aiming assistance to your lasers to cut through where the armour is weakest.

 

Sounds good, but why (oh why?) would the same flaws not be there next time you attack the same target? Why does your astonishing aiming system not have a memory?

 

Ultimately I've nver actually found a sfx that I'm entirely happy describes what FW does in game terms, which is one of my main reasons for not liking it. Equally none of these sfx are properly represented by AP or NND - they are not automatic. You can build them with AP or NND - probably - but you'll need a lot of power modifiers to properly describe the effect, and if you are doing that anyway then you might as well look at example builds.

 

I think the #1 issue I have with both the current Find Weakness as well as your proposed replacement is the issue of 'target lock'. Why does succeeding with it once in a combat mean that it will work on subsequent attacks vs. the same target? That's another argument for AP as well. But you're wanting to make this a Talent again (closer to a Skill I'm guessing).

 

That, at least, is easy to address - with a build like the one I suggested you have the bones laid bare, unlike FW as a power which is presented as a whole thing. With the build suggested simply change the limitation that says when the added points fade to 'points fade after one phase'. That way you 'find weakness' and you have to attack immediately or you'll have to look again.

 

The fixed cost argument against using HitLoc rules loses some steam here. Unless HitLoc-boy has +8 PSL's vs vs. Hit Locations he ends up reducing his chances of actually hitting a target whenever he attempts a targeted shot.

 

Well...on one hand it simply changes the 'buy in cost' - countering -8 for hit location (head) with PSLs costs another 12 points. However, because of the bell curve, if you have, say, a 27 DEX character (CV 9) with 4 skill levels to use anyway (max OCV 13) fighting a DEX 18 Brick (probably with OCV bonuses or AoE attacks to have any chance at all), that is a (13-6)=7 point OCV advantage already. You can do double damage on 10 or less (50%). That is the problem to my mind - hit locations or anything simulating hit locations like that always favours the characters with high CV, and they probably will have little or nothing more to pay to get all that extra value out of their attack powers. It skews the build dynamics.

 

The other potential defense against HitLoc targeting would be Defense Maneuver. I think its use could include a bonus vs. specific targeted locations (like the head) as well.

 

I agree - many FW 'justifications' are foiled if the target is smart enough to turn the weak bit away

 

Also, anyone can defend against attacks targeting a specific Hit Location.

It's called Dodging.

 

 

Of course that also works against telfon coated bullets

 

It does raise an interesting point though - you CAN apply FW to AoE attacks, and they are not even aimed at the target you are trying to affect - which foils the accuracy hypothesis (and most of the others) AND also foils that dodge defence...

[Beast]

Re: Find Weakness, again

 

since AP and Find weakness both at least halve the targets defenses

it would be unfair

here are some sfx that do not require accuracy to work

 

1)finding the the frequency at which the target operates at and getting close or matching it to bypass defenses

 

2)(it uses a little accuracy)to strike the targets defenses at a 0 degree deflection angle or as close as possible(does not matter where just hitting at 0 degrees)

this is the basis for sloped armors

as right angle structures are easier to build than sloped or angled ones and have an easier use of internal space

 

3)data base of all defense types and the proper attack to use against them

on board systems mod attacks to best defeat that defense as more info is gained on that particular defense as it pertains to the target carrying it

 

there you go 2.5 ways of using find weakness that does not need greater accuracy

 

 

Let me clarify my earlier statement.

 

Any sfx explanation for the use of Find Weakness that doesn't use 'accuracy' as its basis is actually better represented by other abilities. A Naked Armor Piercing or NND Advantage with RSR would cover your example quite nicely. I challenge you to come up with a sfx for Find Weakness that is not 'accuracy' and iat the same time is not also easily/better represented by Armor Piercing and/or NND.

 

I think the #1 issue I have with both the current Find Weakness as well as your proposed replacement is the issue of 'target lock'. Why does succeeding with it once in a combat mean that it will work on subsequent attacks vs. the same target? That's another argument for AP as well. But you're wanting to make this a Talent again (closer to a Skill I'm guessing). The fixed cost argument against using HitLoc rules loses some steam here. Unless HitLoc-boy has +8 PSL's vs vs. Hit Locations he ends up reducing his chances of actually hitting a target whenever he attempts a targeted shot.

 

The other potential defense against HitLoc targeting would be Defense Maneuver. I think its use could include a bonus vs. specific targeted locations (like the head) as well.

 

Also, anyone can defend against attacks targeting a specific Hit Location.

It's called Dodging.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Find Weakness, again

 

Actually' date=' FW is a Sense and can be Flashed. Believe me this time? [/quote']

 

It was the huge cheesy grin that convinced me.

 

 

 

[Beast]

Re: Find Weakness, again

 

I would think FW would need a targeting sense to use

it cannot add any of the sense componets

so that makes FW dependent on a sense to be usable at any range

 

 

Actually' date=' FW is a Sense and can be Flashed. Believe me this time? [/quote']

[Doc Samson]

Re: Find Weakness, again

 

I would think FW would need a targeting sense to use

it cannot add any of the sense componets

so that makes FW dependent on a sense to be usable at any range

Yah, its not very intuitive but it is classified as a Sensory Power and can be affected like other senses in the Unusual Sense Group.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Find Weakness, again

 

....Going back to my suggestion about finding the resonant frequency of the target - I'm going to (half) justify that. Finding a resonant frequency is a combination of luck and judgement. You can tune in, but it is certainly not automatic - and in some combats you simply fail to tune in precisely enough to bypass defences - of course this suffers from the same problem that the 'hit locations' hypothesis does - you ought to be causing more damage irrespective of defences.

 

Then we have the targeting computer, which analyses your target, bathing it in Peerinium Rays, detecting any microflaws in the defences and then providing aiming assistance to your lasers to cut through where the armour is weakest.

 

...

 

By using the phrase aiming assistance you are using a targeting sfx; a form of Hit Location. (A passive mechanic)

 

The only alternative to a targeting based sfx is one that actually changes the attack itself. (An active mechanic like a Naked AP Advantage with a RSR Limitation - ex: Tuning the Phasers to bypass the shields)

 

I have yet to see a special effect put forth by anyone that both avoids using a 'targeting' sfx and can't be better simulated by some form of Armor Piercing/Penetrating or NND with RSR. The main point being that if you manage to avoid the 'targeting' aspect how do you handle mixing the mechanic with an attack that already has one or more of those Advantages?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Find Weakness, again

 

since AP and Find weakness both at least halve the targets defenses

it would be unfair

here are some sfx that do not require accuracy to work

 

1)finding the the frequency at which the target operates at and getting close or matching it to bypass defenses

 

2)(it uses a little accuracy)to strike the targets defenses at a 0 degree deflection angle or as close as possible(does not matter where just hitting at 0 degrees)

this is the basis for sloped armors

as right angle structures are easier to build than sloped or angled ones and have an easier use of internal space

 

3)data base of all defense types and the proper attack to use against them

on board systems mod attacks to best defeat that defense as more info is gained on that particular defense as it pertains to the target carrying it

 

there you go 2.5 ways of using find weakness that does not need greater accuracy

 

You guys are making my points for me.

 

1) Armor Piercing/Penetrating or NND as a Naked Advantage with RSR. Done.

 

2) Accuracy already conceded. Done.

 

3) Not stating how the information is used makes it fall under the arguments of either 1) or 2). Done.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Find Weakness, again

 

Here's another way to look at the issues here.

 

Say we are talking about a Heroic Level campaign that is already using the Hit Location rules.

 

In the campaign a character has a weapon with Armor Piercing and several PSL's vs. Hit Location Penalties usable with that weapon.

 

Would you allow (as the GM) this character to buy Find Weakness (either the RAW version or Sean's proposal) usable with the weapon as well?

[Mr. Gridlock]

Re: Find Weakness, again

 

I think the system assumes that everything has weaknesses and if it doesn't then you can buy Lack of Weakness for it. Which is much cheaper than Hardened.

 

AP with RSR ends up being cheaper than Find Weakness, though this might be balanced by the fact that FW can do multiple halvings.

 

Just what are people's objections to Find Weakness? I don't see any problem with it. If it's the multiple halvings, I would say this is balanced by how cheap LoW is, and that it takes extra phases to do so, which makes the Finder of Weakness vulnerable to attack.

 

This seems balanced to me....

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Find Weakness, again

 

If trying to avoid/redo traditional FW, why not use Piercing rather than AP as the basis?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Find Weakness, again

 

By using the phrase aiming assistance you are using a targeting sfx; a form of Hit Location. (A passive mechanic)

 

The only alternative to a targeting based sfx is one that actually changes the attack itself. (An active mechanic like a Naked AP Advantage with a RSR Limitation - ex: Tuning the Phasers to bypass the shields)

 

I have yet to see a special effect put forth by anyone that both avoids using a 'targeting' sfx and can't be better simulated by some form of Armor Piercing/Penetrating or NND with RSR. The main point being that if you manage to avoid the 'targeting' aspect how do you handle mixing the mechanic with an attack that already has one or more of those Advantages?

 

 

Accuracy is a very common justification for FW, but:

 

1. Accuracy is not the same as saying that it is a form of hit location - specifically it does not work like a hit location system if you consider a target with low or no relevant defence, so I do not agree that FW is a hit location substitute.

 

2. As you note, causing attacks to bypass defences* or chosing particularly effective attacks against the specific target are the only real alternatives I can see to hitting where the defences are weak, but you do not need to rely on an accuracy sfx: luck, for instance works just as well, and, as I noted you can apply FW to AoE attacks where accuracy simply can not be a factor.

 

In addition I fuly accept that you can make AP act like FW, add an activation roll or RSR and you are practically there - but I'm not sure where that takes us - perhaps it is further justification for not needing FW as a seperate power, but instead simulating the affect with a build - of which there are several alternatives.

 

 

* a sort of 'indirect' for personal defences, much like AP and NND

[Markdoc]

Re: Find Weakness, again

 

Accuracy is a very common justification for FW' date=' but:[/quote']

 

I agree: it's not the only one. We've had FW with the special effect of Ki attacks (where you hit the target is irrelevant: the skill roll reflects how successfully you can attune your own Ki, allowing you to do damage through a target's defences), precognition powers (again, where you hit the location is irrelevant: the defence halving represents using the target's momentum against him and the skill roll represents picking him out of the stream of "possible futures") etc. There are plenty of SFX one can use, other than accuracy.

 

In addition I fuly accept that you can make AP act like FW' date=' add an activation roll or RSR and you are practically there - but I'm not sure where that takes us - perhaps it is further justification for not needing FW as a seperate power, but instead simulating the affect with a build - of which there are several alternatives.[/quote']

 

We have kicked this around in some of our games - the problem (or solution, if you prefer) is that if you use "naked AP" you can't readily price it as a single talent - it has to scale with your attack. It actually works OK, though of course you don't get repeated doubling. Personally, though I haven't had problems with FW, I'd be happy enough with FW going away, to be replaced by a naked advantage, AP, RSR, X points per 10 AP in the attack.

 

cheers, Mark

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Find Weakness, again

 

I agree: it's not the only one. We've had FW with the special effect of Ki attacks (where you hit the target is irrelevant: the skill roll reflects how successfully you can attune your own Ki' date=' ....[/quote']

 

Again, this sounds like an Advantage is being applied to the attack. By the sfx description you are essentially using Find Weakness as a cheaper form of Armor Piercing (Flat cost vs. scaled cost).

 

I'm not against using the current Find Weakness but if we're talking about changing it I would like the rules to reflect that it is essentially a simplified Hit Location mechanic and nothing more.