Find Weakness, again

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Find Weakness, again

 

Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (Activation roll reduced by Lack of Weakness; -1/2)

Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (If you fail activation roll you can not try again for a full minute; -1/2)

Activation Roll 14- (-1/2)

Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (Sense based; -1/2)

Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (Only to reduce relevant defences, not to increase actual damage; -1/2)

Limited Power Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness (Each attempt after the first is subject to a cumulative -2 modifier; -1/4)

(29 Real Points)

 

My first contribution is not directly about the OP but...

 

...did you notice your limitations have lost the power four thirds and one fourth of its effectiveness? That is 19 twelvths. On plain reading your 10D6 EB has become 5D6 healing!!

 

 

Doc

[Markdoc]

Re: Find Weakness, again

 

Again, this sounds like an Advantage is being applied to the attack. By the sfx description you are essentially using Find Weakness as a cheaper form of Armor Piercing (Flat cost vs. scaled cost).

 

I'm not against using the current Find Weakness but if we're talking about changing it I would like the rules to reflect that it is essentially a simplified Hit Location mechanic and nothing more.

 

Not really - as I highlighted, you would perhaps prefer it to be a simplified hit mechanic, but that's not really how it works: after all, you can use find weakness on a wall, which doesn't have any hit locations, and on Vehicles, or on Automatons:

 

Saying "You can use it to reflect things other than hit locations, but that's not really right." ... well, you're welcome to your opinion, but that's not how FW is written. It can be applied to a variety of approaches. I think you are taking your own preferred SFX and trying to cram everyone else's approach into that - which is why you are meeting so much disagreement.

 

cheers, Mark

[Sean Waters]

Re: Find Weakness, again

 

My first contribution is not directly about the OP but...

 

...did you notice your limitations have lost the power four thirds and one fourth of its effectiveness? That is 19 twelvths. On plain reading your 10D6 EB has become 5D6 healing!!

 

 

Doc

 

Thank you for that mathematical insight, Doc

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Find Weakness, again

 

Not really - as I highlighted, you would perhaps prefer it to be a simplified hit mechanic, but that's not really how it works: after all, you can use find weakness on a wall, which doesn't have any hit locations, and on Vehicles, or on Automatons:

 

Saying "You can use it to reflect things other than hit locations, but that's not really right." ... well, you're welcome to your opinion, but that's not how FW is written. It can be applied to a variety of approaches. I think you are taking your own preferred SFX and trying to cram everyone else's approach into that - which is why you are meeting so much disagreement.

 

cheers, Mark

 

Just to be clear, I have no problem using Find Weakness 'as is'. However, if we are talking about changing the mechanics behind it (as Sean was) we might as well go all the way and be clear about what it's actually simulating.

 

from Sean's first post:

I've previously suggested that we model it on reducing defences, but one way of reducing defences is by increasing your attack, and that approach makes even more sense to me.

 

That's essentially the same idea behind half of my Advantaged Attack or Targeted Hit Location theory.

 

And the FAQ ruling on Find Weakness applying to inanimate objects just means that it also has Demolition Skill aspects in addition to the Targeted Hit Location ones (or it just operates like a Naked Advantage).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Find Weakness, again

 

Just to be clear, I have no problem using Find Weakness 'as is'. However, if we are talking about changing the mechanics behind it (as Sean was) we might as well go all the way and be clear about what it's actually simulating.

 

from Sean's first post:

 

 

That's essentially the same idea behind half of my Advantaged Attack or Targeted Hit Location theory.

 

And the FAQ ruling on Find Weakness applying to inanimate objects just means that it also has Demolition Skill aspects in addition to the Targeted Hit Location ones (or it just operates like a Naked Advantage).

 

I think if you used the build I suggested, or something like it, but removed the 'only to counter defences' limitation then this could work very like a hit location system - actually hurting more if you get hit in the head. I think the 'build' option gives you much more tweakability and choice than a set power in this particular instance: FW is not a basic effect.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Find Weakness, again

 

I think if you used the build I suggested' date=' or something like it, but removed the 'only to counter defences' limitation then this could work very like a hit location system - actually hurting more if you get hit in the head. I think the 'build' option gives you much more tweakability and choice than a set power in this particular instance: FW is not a basic effect.[/quote']

 

But what are you actually fixing?

 

If it's just the lack of a scaled cost increase then an Advantage approach works equally as well.

 

Adding Limited effect Damage just increases the complexity and overlaps other similar Talents (like Deadly Blow).

Would you allow a character to take your version of Find Weakness AND Deadly Blow for the same attack?

 

Another issue that hasn't been addressed directly yet is the HERO concept that the 'defense' should always be cheaper than the 'attack'.

Does the ability we call Find Weakness, in any form, actually contribute or detract from this concept? I think it detracts from it.

 

example:

A brick whose primary sfx is being 'invulnerable'. Since there is no single ability in HERO to build such an effect we must cover a lot of options.

Find Weakness as it currently stands only creates 1 more option to cover (mechanically speaking) even though the sfx arguably is already covered by 2 other existing ones (Hit Locations & Advantaged Attacks).

[DocMan]

Re: Find Weakness, again

 

Another issue that hasn't been addressed directly yet is the HERO concept that the 'defense' should always be cheaper than the 'attack'.

Does the ability we call Find Weakness, in any form, actually contribute or detract from this concept? I think it detracts from it.

 

The Defense for Find Weakness is Lack of Weakness. I don't have my book handy. How much does it cost compared to Find Weakness?

 

Doc

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Find Weakness, again

 

The Defense for Find Weakness is Lack of Weakness. I don't have my book handy. How much does it cost compared to Find Weakness?

 

Doc

 

You missed the point I was trying to make.

 

How many different types and combinations of defenses do we already have in HERO without adding Find Weakness/Lack of Weakness to the mix?

 

Lack of Weakness becomes 'just one more type of defense' that an 'invulnerable sfx' character has to purchase to cover his 'shtick'. Why is this necessary? As I've already pointed out, Find Weakness can only have 1 of 2 possible sfx (targeting a spot or hit location-lite & modifying the attack aka Naked Advantage). It serves no purpose other than to broaden the types of defenses necessary for some character concepts.

[Fabricati]

Re: Find Weakness, again

 

You missed the point I was trying to make.

 

How many different types and combinations of defenses do we already have in HERO without adding Find Weakness/Lack of Weakness to the mix?

 

Lack of Weakness becomes 'just one more type of defense' that an 'invulnerable sfx' character has to purchase to cover his 'shtick'. Why is this necessary? As I've already pointed out, Find Weakness can only have 1 of 2 possible sfx (targeting a spot or hit location-lite & modifying the attack aka Naked Advantage). It serves no purpose other than to broaden the types of defenses necessary for some character concepts.

 

But that's part of the problem- I personally think AP (RSR) is a little, well, clunky for the desired effect. It forces a skill roll every time you want to change the attack in any way at the very least, makes things more complex for the gamer just approaching the game, and despite what you say, Hyper-Man, makes things a little less clear (which is not something the HERO System needs right now).

 

Not only that, but suddenly Hardened has to do quadruple duty instead of the triple it already has, and GM workload is increased by building Hit Locations for everything, even things that aren't supposed to have Hit Locations by definition.

 

Can Find Weakness be abused liberally? Hell yes, I've done it myself. So can Teleport and pretty much every power in the book (with the possible exception of non-resistant defenses and even then I'm not sure).

 

So yes, I think FW has a place in HERO. It's a remarkably useful beginner power because it can be used 'out of the box', and does not require any sort of mucking about with to get the desired effect, especially in cases where the GM doesn't want to muck about with Hit Locations or the Player doesn't want to muck about with Naked Advantages. Is it appropos for all campaigns? No, but that's why it has the little exclamation point.

[schir1964]

Re: Find Weakness, again

 

I seem to recall from the FAQs concerning Find Weakness that you had to specify which Defense you were using it against.

 

Changing the Defense you were using it against immediately forced a reset on any successful accumulated Find Weakness rolls.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: Find Weakness, again

 

What if Find Weakness were done from the other direction.

 

New Advantage: Attack Multiplier (+1: x2 Damage, +2: x3 Damage, +3: x4 Damage)

An attack with this Advantage multiplies the damage rolled by the factor purchased.

 

Find Weakness

Naked Power Advantage (Any Attack): Attack Multiplier x2 (+1), Power Skill Required (-1/4)

Naked Power Advantage (Any Attack): Attack Multiplier x3 (+2), Power Skill Required (-1/4)

Naked Power Advantage (Any Attack): Attack Multiplier x4 (+3), Power Skill Required (-1/4)

 

Not sure what the costs would look like, but it may give a similar effect. Once the costs are nailed down, then you perhaps it could be rewritten as a canned power.

 

Just A Thought

 

- Christopher Mullins

[BNakagawa]

Re: Find Weakness, again

 

What if Find Weakness were done from the other direction.

 

New Advantage: Attack Multiplier (+1: x2 Damage, +2: x3 Damage, +3: x4 Damage)

An attack with this Advantage multiplies the damage rolled by the factor purchased.

 

Find Weakness

Naked Power Advantage (Any Attack): Attack Multiplier x2 (+1), Power Skill Required (-1/4)

Naked Power Advantage (Any Attack): Attack Multiplier x3 (+2), Power Skill Required (-1/4)

Naked Power Advantage (Any Attack): Attack Multiplier x4 (+3), Power Skill Required (-1/4)

 

Not sure what the costs would look like, but it may give a similar effect. Once the costs are nailed down, then you perhaps it could be rewritten as a canned power.

 

Just A Thought

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

It's a fundamentally bad idea to allow an advantage to increase the damage done by a power because it screams out for advantage stacking.