Magic: SFX or mechanically distinctive?

[StormGathering]

Hello everyone,

 

For the second time in as many years, I am considering a new HERO campaign--this time a fantasy-themed one.

 

As I was trying to develop a magic system (isn't everyone?) I began to question what made magic in HERO "magic". There is nothing in the core rulebook to distinguish a 2d6 RKA spell from a longbow, obviously. Both have the same effect.

 

So how do you distinguish between spells and non-spell powers in a HERO Fantasy campaign? I realized as I was making up spells that basically all of the spells I had made up so far could be non-magic powers too... the only thing currently differentiating the spells I made from, say, a ranged weapon happened to be that one had Gestures and Incantations and one did not.

 

So in your campaign, are spells just special effects? Is the social benefit of being a feared spell-slinger the only reason to be a wizard in your world? Do you let spellcasters buy spells at slightly discounted prices? Do you do anything mechanically to privilege spellcasters (say, by letting them buy spells in a VPP, or by increasing the max allowed Active Power point cap for Powers that are "spells")?

 

I'm just curious. I wanted to make a detailed system, but I'm worried that adding too many Limitations like Extra Time or similar will lead to spells being a useless pain in the rear for what basically amounts to flashier special effects and that's it.

 

 

All replies welcome. Thanks!

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Magic: SFX or mechanically distinctive?

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/GeneralSpellRestrictions.aspx

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/shrikeMagicDesign.aspx

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/shrikeMagic.aspx

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/ShrikeMagicSystems.aspx

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/shrikeMagicSystemAdvisor.aspx

[ghost-angel]

Re: Magic: SFX or mechanically distinctive?

 

Beyond Shrike's website of pure goodness..

 

Decide on an underlying Theme for the Magic - both SFX and Mechanically.

 

Does all magic require Skill? How about possibly it all requires specific kinds of rituals that can be simulated both with Flavor Text and Mechanical Applications (like all magic requires the use of a bronze bowl and ingredients: OAF and descriptions of what goes into the bowl for each spell).

[Markdoc]

Re: Magic: SFX or mechanically distinctive?

 

Also decide what you want magic to do. In my current game, it's heavily limited, so mages make poor warrior replacements. However, they can do things that warriors can't (magic healing, divination, breathe underwater, fly, etc).

 

cheers, Mark

[CTaylor]

Re: Magic: SFX or mechanically distinctive?

 

I treat magic as a meta-effect, that is it is a single special effect that all magic shares, then individual spells have special effects (a bolt of fire, a 10 ton weight that falls out of the sky, etc). That way you can dispel magic as a special effect, or have dispel FIRE magic as a more specific one. It makes magic slightly more vulnerable to adjustment powers.

 

The first thing you should do is write down how you think magic ought to work in your game, and what it can and cannot do. Make a set of rules then build the spells and magic system around those rules.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Magic: SFX or mechanically distinctive?

 

Yup

 

I'm afraid that's the most I can add to all of the posts listed above.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Magic: SFX or mechanically distinctive?

 

Also decide what you want magic to do. In my current game' date=' it's heavily limited, so mages make poor warrior replacements. However, they can do things that warriors can't (magic healing, divination, breathe underwater, fly, etc).[/quote']

My sentiments exactly! I strongly dislike games where wizards are just walking artillery platforms. That's the deendee model - each character class is simply a different way to do damage in combat. Let the fighters and the archers do the fighting. Let magic be used for something that can't be done otherwise. In addition to the examples Markdoc gave, there's illusion, shape-changing, matter alteration, invisibility, mind control, summoning animals and monsters, object creation, special protections, etc.

[Vondy]

Re: Magic: SFX or mechanically distinctive?

 

my sentiments exactly! I strongly dislike games where wizards are just walking artillery platforms.

 

100%.

[Markdoc]

Re: Magic: SFX or mechanically distinctive?

 

My sentiments exactly! I strongly dislike games where wizards are just walking artillery platforms. That's the deendee model - each character class is simply a different way to do damage in combat. Let the fighters and the archers do the fighting. Let magic be used for something that can't be done otherwise. In addition to the examples Markdoc gave' date=' there's illusion, shape-changing, matter alteration, invisibility, mind control, summoning animals and monsters, object creation, special protections, etc.[/quote']

 

It's worked remarkably well, too, if I do say so myself. There's only one dedicated spellcaster in the group and his only combat abilities are a spell that gives him Find Weakness (so far, only used for breaking doors and such), and a small (10 STR) telekinesis spell. He's utterly hopeless in combat. His STR is 10, his DEX 14 and he has no CSLs, He carries a staff and a knife as weapons and has no armour. However, he's a valued member of the group and has saved their butts on numerous occasions, because he can do things than none of the others can - raise heavy fogs over wide areas, control winds, breathe underwater (and allow others to do so), sense things in the water, etc. For a game that revolves around ships and the sea, a weather mage is a godsend.

 

cheers, Mark

[Manic Typist]

Re: Magic: SFX or mechanically distinctive?

 

On the other hand... artillery can be FUN! Especially if you´re the one sending it out...

 

What I REALLY dislike is the ¨fire and forget¨ systems. I just can´t... relate to it. If I´ve taken the time to study and master complex formulas of arcane power... and then they just disappear once I´ve said them? It just doesn´t make sense/seem like a good flavor to me.

 

I´ve always wanted to play a very good, very power hungry wizard. Someone who has dedicated literally every ounce of his or her energy to acquiring more and more arcane might. Someone who I can roleplay a distracted, impervious attitude and back it up with the power to melt faces and raze buildings.

 

Man, that´d be a blast, at least if I were with a group that could fit with obviously. Need party coherence.

[Fenixcrest]

Re: Magic: SFX or mechanically distinctive?

 

I lean toward "mechanical distinction based in campaign lore." In my current project, wizards and priests both buy spells using 2-point perks, one perk per spell, and their spell power is limited by the talents "Arcane Spells," "Holy Rune Spells" and whathaveyou, which are just VPPs. This represents the ability to learn new spells on the go without having to save up points forever, and includes a houserule allowing new spells to be temporarily stored in "Cramming" slots at the cost of reliability. Druids are the same way, but their power is distinct from the others in that their spell END comes from an external battery in the form of local leylines. Necromancers' END comes from a blood- or soul-fetter, which is a recovering END reserve that needs to be occasionally "rekindled" by one of several macabre and often quite criminal rituals. The running theme of most major fields of magic in this campaign are that you invest a large number of points up front in your VPP, representing your years spent learning, and the rest you can pick up using your background understanding of the art. Also, the VPPs for all of these magic types require that the character have ranks in the appropriate knowledge, professional, and Magic Power skills. The idea here is to make a spellcaster spend enough points on the ability to cast magic that if he wants to access very powerful spells, he is forced to forgo proficiency in physical combat and/or social interaction.

[Shoutybloke]

Re: Magic: SFX or mechanically distinctive?

 

Magic and a longbow are mechanicly different in HERO. Longbows have the Real Weapon limitation, spells typicly don't. The Real weapon limitation simply states that you can't do anything with the weapon that you couldn't do in real life, and you need to look after it (I.E no walking around with your longbow strung all the time). If you enforce this limitation then the spells have loads more utility- you can knock down doors with your magic missile, which you can't do with the longbow, use the spreading and bouncing rules (other limitations on the spell not withstanding) ect.

[Markdoc]

Re: Magic: SFX or mechanically distinctive?

 

I lean toward "mechanical distinction based in campaign lore." In my current project' date=' wizards and priests both buy spells using 2-point perks, one perk per spell, and their spell power is limited by the talents "Arcane Spells," "Holy Rune Spells" and whathaveyou, which are just VPPs. This represents the ability to learn new spells on the go without having to save up points forever, and includes a houserule allowing new spells to be temporarily stored in "Cramming" slots at the cost of reliability. Druids are the same way, but their power is distinct from the others in that their spell END comes from an external battery in the form of local leylines. Necromancers' END comes from a blood- or soul-fetter, which is a recovering END reserve that needs to be occasionally "rekindled" by one of several macabre and often quite criminal rituals. The running theme of most major fields of magic in this campaign are that you invest a large number of points up front in your VPP, representing your years spent learning, and the rest you can pick up using your background understanding of the art. Also, the VPPs for all of these magic types require that the character have ranks in the appropriate knowledge, professional, and Magic Power skills. The idea here is to make a spellcaster spend enough points on the ability to cast magic that if he wants to access very powerful spells, he is forced to forgo proficiency in physical combat and/or social interaction.[/quote']

 

That's more or less exactly how I do it, with the exception of cramming and the extra that in the culture my current game is set in, mages can also choose to use a multipower. That typically gives much more bang for the buck - especially since the reserve is heavily limited - but there's a catch. It's easier to gain power using this magic system, because you are getting help from something else - and that something else wants something from you, in return

 

cheers, Mark