Stealth Suit options

[redcap]

Stealth Suit bought as Invisibility versus Change Environment

 

The Change Environment power in Hero 5 (revised) has a “Stealth Suit” option outlined on page 138 under the Self Only option. Let's compare it to an Invisibility-based Stealth Suit.

 

CE-based Stealth Suit Power, -8 to Sight Perception Group: 26 Active Points

This is effectively Invisibility since a Normal with a Perception Roll of 11- can now only see the character on a roll of 3 or less. Not true Invisibility, but very close.

 

Invis-based Stealth Suit Power, Invisibility to Sight Perception Group, No Fringe: 30 Active points

 

The powers look pretty comparable so far. Now we come to working out additional Advantages and Limitations. Both will be bought down to 0 End.

 

CE-based Stealth Suit Power: 39 (26 x 1.5=39)

Invis-based Stealth Suit Power: 45 (30 x 1.5=45)

 

Still comparable but the CE-based option is already 6 points less expensive, now lets work on Limitations. Here is where the Change Environment power gets much cheaper. The CE-based Stealth suit qualifies (again from page 138) to the Self Only Limitation (½) in addition to the No Range Limitation (½). Both versions of the suit would be bought as Obvious Inaccessible Foci (½).

 

CE-based Stealth Suit Power: 39 Active points

Limitations: Obvious Inaccessible Foci (½), No Range (½), Self Only (½), for a Total of 1½

Real Cost: 16

 

Invis-based Stealth Suit Power: 45 Active points

Limitations: Obvious Inaccessible Foci (½)

Real Cost: 30

 

Invisibility does have option outlined on page 193 such as “Chameleon” and “Only When Not Attacking” but wouldn't theses Limitation apply to the CE-based Stealth Suit too, making it an even less expensive route?

[Steve Long]

Re: Stealth Suit options

 

This seems to be intended for discussion rather than being an actual rules question, so I've moved it.

[JmOz]

Re: Stealth Suit options

 

Add injury to insult, by RAW (this is one of those dumb ones BTW) Invisibility is not allowed to take any form of obvious Focus limitation, so you would need to take IIF...

[Split Decision]

Re: Stealth Suit options

 

You could just buy Skills (Stealth) as a power and stick it on a focus. If it's just stealthy and not invisible per se, this seems to be the best bet.

[redcap]

Re: Stealth Suit options

 

Thanks for the move. I did want to find out about this and also edit the original message.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Stealth Suit options

 

Well, with the Invisibility based stealth suit, you cannot be detected visually AT ALL. Ever. No matter how large a PER bonus someone has, they'll never spot you, because you're completely invisible. With the Change Environment version, someone with +8 PER for sight rolls will spot you half the time.

 

I don't know if that's enough to account for the DEGREE of difference, but it makes sense to me that the Invisibility option costs more.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Stealth Suit options

 

So why CE instead of Images. That doesn't make a great deal of sense to me. Both can impose Per penalties to see what is actually there, and require a roll where normally none would be necessary. I suppose we could rationalize it away as Images showing something that isn't actually there vs. CE hiding something that is actually there, but it seems like a thin difference to me. Then again, this could turn into a discussion of Shapeshift too, and I'm not sure I'm ready for that one. LOL.

 

I think that Stealth Skill Levels could probably take a Limitation since Stealth can apply to any senses. But there's also the possibility that a GM wouldn't allow a Stealth roll at all if you're standing in front of someone, in plain sight. So a Power (maybe with a Stealth RSR) might be a more universal solution.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Stealth Suit options

 

Add injury to insult' date=' by RAW (this is one of those dumb ones BTW) Invisibility is not allowed to take any form of obvious Focus limitation, so you would need to take IIF...[/quote']

 

Not necessarily that dumb: an obvious focus has to remain obvious, so, when invisible, you'd still need to be able to notice it for the limitation to remain at the same level. A cloak of invisibility remains a cloak (and is therefore, for instance, accessible) but when in use is not going to be an obvious source of power.

 

I'd only really bother with this for 'sight invisibility' though.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Stealth Suit options

 

I'd probably rule that a CE based suit would still set off a lot of alarms, say ones that had a visible light beam that trips the alarm if broken. Someone in such a suit is hard to see but still opaque.

 

I know that you can sfx round that but you'd need to differentiate invisibility and CE somehow.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Stealth Suit options

 

As prestidigitator pointed out there is a difference between a minus to PER and true Invisibility, especially if the GM is giving bonus's the the PER based on circumstance. For most cases the -8PER will prevent anyone from spotting the character, but if they are actively looking, or the steath character is trying to cross a brightly lit, empty space then the chances of being spotted are no longer vanishingly small. Of course if you are trying to build a steath suit and not an invisibility cloak, maybe that is what you want anyway. Personally I like the idea of extra levels in Steath because it is just simpler, but admittedly it may not have quite the effect you are going for.

[JmOz]

Re: Stealth Suit options

 

Not necessarily that dumb: an obvious focus has to remain obvious, so, when invisible, you'd still need to be able to notice it for the limitation to remain at the same level. A cloak of invisibility remains a cloak (and is therefore, for instance, accessible) but when in use is not going to be an obvious source of power.

 

I'd only really bother with this for 'sight invisibility' though.

 

I understand the reason why, I disagree with the logic behind it.

 

To use the cloak of invisibility, if the character has to raise the hood to turn it on (as per the old D&D cartoon), then any character who sees the character turn invisible will have a good idea the power is from the cloak, thus making the cloak something worth getting, thus making it OIF IMO. If it is just a cloak that the character mentaly turns on, and otherwise looks normal, then yes that is IIF, just like a character who has a magic ring that does not indicate its powers

[dsatow]

Re: Stealth Suit options

 

I disagree about the focus. An obvious focus doesn't necessarily mean that its obvious all the time, just that its obvious that its the source of the power.

 

For example, I would say that a cloak of invisibility is obvious focus because if you put it on, you know that the cloak is generating the invisibility. When they remove the cloak, you know the cloak was responsible for the invisibility. Contrast this to a ring which can be surreptitiously put on. You don't know how they did it, they just turn invisible.

 

There are other reasons I do not like this rule and ignore it in my games. For one, what if they bought invisibility with two different obvious foci. Are they both seen or not or only one seen? Since all foci are rendered invisible by invisibility per pg 192 except for the foci generating the invisibility per pg 193, does each foci generate invisibility which covers the other? How about a invisibility suit? Its obviously an invisibility suit but as soon as its turned on, it makes it look like the suit is empty?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Stealth Suit options

 

Yes it obviously has to be the source of power, and it still has to be obviously the source of power even if someone did not see you activate it - which is why a focus with invisibility cannot be obvious. Of course if you are already wearing the cloak when you activate it, it is not going to be obvious anyway.

 

I'd feel differently if you have to buy IPE for invisibility but you automatically get it for the senses invisibility covers. That's the trade off.

[tesuji]

Re: Stealth Suit options

 

one key to remember - the base perception roll is NOT the roll required to see someone standing in front of you.

 

Really!

 

The average guy will not fail to see the guy standing in front of him 20' away 305 of the time, roughly the leftover from the standard 11- per roll.

 

Most of the time it wont even require a roll to see someone standing in front of them 20' away, so that -8 doesn't help much.

 

At the worst i would rule this an easy or simple roll, giving you a +3 to +5 to the base per roll to start with.

 

So mr invisible can stand in front of you or walk right past the uard in broad daylight, barring fringe.

 

stealth guy - well Ok so the guard has to make a per roll at -8 but he gains a +5 for it being easy to spot the guy walking past him...

 

BIG DIFFERENCE especially if a camera is recording this for later.

 

Now on the other hand, if mr stealth suit uses it as a STEALTH SUIT and instead waits until nighttime, sneaks in using STEALTH, then when we come to the opposed rolls stealth vs perception, the penalties from the suit help him out.

 

So one is actual invisibility.

the other is good stealth for use when stealth applies.

 

to me there is a big differences there in utility and application.

 

the mistake seems to be thinking "if you dont make a normal per roll you cannot see obvious things" which isn't usually true. We aren't that blind, usually.

[dsatow]

Re: Stealth Suit options

 

Yes it obviously has to be the source of power, and it still has to be obviously the source of power even if someone did not see you activate it - which is why a focus with invisibility cannot be obvious. Of course if you are already wearing the cloak when you activate it, it is not going to be obvious anyway.

 

I'd feel differently if you have to buy IPE for invisibility but you automatically get it for the senses invisibility covers. That's the trade off.

 

I still disagree. If you are wearing the cloak and activate it, it can still be obviously the cloak which is giving you the invisibility, if the cloak glows first and then turns you invisible, you will assume that the cloak is what gives you the invisibility.

 

As anecdotal evidence to this, the vast majority of people in movies and comics with invisibility devices, people seem to know what causes their invisibility without having to be told. As long as the item in question is obvious in it purpose, it should get the Obvious bonus.

[redcap]

Re: Stealth Suit options

 

Hmm. Indeed, without the Invis-based suit qualifying for the OIF Limitation, the point discrepancy is even greater. The CE-based suit would still come in at 16, but now the Invis-based option is still 45! If it took IIF, it would be 36. The point difference is rather dramatic, but, as pointed out, it is not True Invisibility and much easier to spot in many circumstances. But for agents or point-limited circumstances, it could still be very effective.