Indirect and Mental Powers

[The Hawk God]

How does the advantage Indirect interact with mental powers? Can it change the prohibition on "naked sight"? What about when combined with Clairsentience?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Indirect and Mental Powers

 

I believe that mental powers are all LOS (Line Of Sight) which means that if you have a sense that circumvents physical objects (N-Ray vision, for example), that is targeting, you can basically ignore anything in the way i.e. mental powers are already indirect in almost every important way, as well as being IPE in almost every important way, and, of course, AVLD.

 

That is a ludicrously powerful advantage that only really works because everyone basically ignores it.

 

Clairsentience is not targeting IIRC, so it probably won't be much use for targeting mental powers, but even if you add 'Targeting' the entry specifically mentions you can not use it to establish LOS. That is a bit too much like cheap and overly efficient Mind Scan.

[The Hawk God]

Re: Indirect and Mental Powers

 

I know about the LOS and targeting senses with Mental Powers and the prohibition on Clairsentience as well as equipment based senses used for targeting.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Indirect and Mental Powers

 

OK, well since you asked so nicely, I'd say that the clear intention is that you can not use clairsentience to target mental powers, you use a sense or mind scan. Adding 'indirect' is irrelevant as mental powers are already laregly indirect.

[The Hawk God]

Re: Indirect and Mental Powers

 

Ah, but what if it meant the creation of an "astral self" that could use those powers in a way totally unconnected to where is physically. I know there is an astral body duplication trick Steve-O worked out, but as HERO is a toolkit there has to be more than one way to exfoliate a cactus.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Indirect and Mental Powers

 

I took this info from the Rules FAQ:

 

Question: Though Clairsentience doesn’t provide LOS, would Indirect on a Mental Power allow a character to establish LOS through the Clairsentience? If so, at what level?

 

Answer: The default rule is that you can’t establish LOS with Clairsentience, period. Indirect wouldn’t change that — unless, of course, the GM so permits. If you came up with a reasonable and non-abusive power using “Clairsentience LOS,” hopefully an equally reasonable GM would let you try it out. The Indirect should be at the +1/2 level at least.

 

I used this optional construct for a character I created, who was able to use Clairsentience to see through the eyes of others, and project Mental Power attacks from the characters he saw through. The character purchased his Mental Powers with Indirect at +3/4, because his mental attacks would appear to come from whichever direction his channeling viewer was facing.

 

Ah' date=' but what if it meant the creation of an "astral self" that could use those powers in a way totally unconnected to where is physically. I know there is an astral body duplication trick Steve-O worked out, but as HERO is a toolkit there has to be more than one way to exfoliate a cactus.[/quote']

 

The Fourth Edition Champions supplement Mystic Masters used Clairsentience as the basis for its "Astral Form" Power construct, and assumed that characters Astrally projecting could target Mental Powers. IIRC the "Indirect" option for Mental Powers to be targetted through Clairsentience was introduced by Steve Long for the 4E version of The Ultimate Mentalist. I'd have to look that up to confirm it, though.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Indirect and Mental Powers

 

That is a ludicrously powerful advantage that only really works because everyone basically ignores it.

 

I don't think of it so much as ignoring at as 'refusing to do it because it's ridiculously cheesy'. I could easy make a telepath with an Ego Attack and a special visor with N-Ray Vision and a metric squidload of telescopic vision and zap people from my bathroom while the fight is halfway across town.

 

It is, however, rather abusive and likely to annoy everybody at the table, especially if said Ego Attack is invisible or indirect and can't be traced.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Indirect and Mental Powers

 

I don't think of it so much as ignoring at as 'refusing to do it because it's ridiculously cheesy'. I could easy make a telepath with an Ego Attack and a special visor with N-Ray Vision and a metric squidload of telescopic vision and zap people from my bathroom while the fight is halfway across town.

 

It is, however, rather abusive and likely to annoy everybody at the table, especially if said Ego Attack is invisible or indirect and can't be traced.

 

...which makes me wonder why we do it that way. If, for whatever reason, there is a cosnpiracy to not use the inherent advantages of the power because to do so would be cheesy/abusive/disruptive/overly potent, surely that is the best reason to revisit those inherent advantages? Ego Attack is already too cheap, not by an acceptable margin, but by whole ball parks, if compared to building something similar with EB and advantages.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Indirect and Mental Powers

 

Hmm. So if I am Mr MindZappo with a huge Ego Blast power and there are several Viper agents standing behind a mental defence force wall with transparent advantage for energy based attacks shooting at me, then the force wall is useless?

 

Just because I can see them?

 

Or do I need indirect to get round that force wall?

 

 

Doc

[Sean Waters]

Re: Indirect and Mental Powers

 

I took this info from the Rules FAQ:

 

Question: Though Clairsentience doesn’t provide LOS, would Indirect on a Mental Power allow a character to establish LOS through the Clairsentience? If so, at what level?

 

Answer: The default rule is that you can’t establish LOS with Clairsentience, period. Indirect wouldn’t change that — unless, of course, the GM so permits. If you came up with a reasonable and non-abusive power using “Clairsentience LOS,” hopefully an equally reasonable GM would let you try it out. The Indirect should be at the +1/2 level at least.

 

I used this optional construct for a character I created, who was able to use Clairsentience to see through the eyes of others, and project Mental Power attacks from the characters he saw through. The character purchased his Mental Powers with Indirect at +3/4, because his mental attacks would appear to come from whichever direction his channeling viewer was facing.

 

 

 

The Fourth Edition Champions supplement Mystic Masters used Clairsentience as the basis for its "Astral Form" Power construct, and assumed that characters Astrally projecting could target Mental Powers. IIRC the "Indirect" option for Mental Powers to be targetted through Clairsentience was introduced by Steve Long for the 4E version of The Ultimate Mentalist. I'd have to look that up to confirm it, though.

 

As usual the GM can allow anything, but my stance is that the rules shouldn't be changed without really good reason. Mental powers come from the character using them and ignore any intervening barriers you can perceive through (unless those intervening barriers have mental defence). The form of indirect that mental powers have is not even expressed as being indirect (it just has that effect) and so is not going to be stopped by hardened defences.

 

Looking at cost, adding Indirect to mental powers is going to be expensive, in the form that is suggested as it would have to be 'any point of origin, any direction', and, adding in the cost of clairsentience (which would need the 'targeting' adder), it is not going to be abusive in terms of cost. In fact, refering to the current discussion on IPE and Indirect, such a power would EITHER have to make it obvious that the attack is coming from the actual character via his 'astral form' (for those able to percive such attacks) or would ALSO have to be bought with at least some IPE, making the whole thing prohibitively expensive IMO.

 

You can understand why there is a ruling that you can not target through clairsentience, because it is a completely 'safe' attack for the attacker - the attacked person and anyone perceiving the attack can not turn on the attacker because he is not really there, but I can not see why it should be a problem if the attack that is targeted through clairsentience is properly built so that it could attack from that point anyway - the injunction makes sense to avoid 'free' advantages, but not to stifle creativity.

 

There - I've talked myself round to a good reason

[ghost-angel]

Re: Indirect and Mental Powers

 

Hmm. So if I am Mr MindZappo with a huge Ego Blast power and there are several Viper agents standing behind a mental defence force wall with transparent advantage for energy based attacks shooting at me, then the force wall is useless?

 

Just because I can see them?

 

Or do I need indirect to get round that force wall?

 

 

Doc

 

Unless the Force Wall buys Mental Defense it is Transparent to Mental Attacks.

(likewise for anything going against any other Exotic Defense like Power or Flash)

 

No - you do not need indirect to bypass a Force Wall that has no Mental Defense. see 5ER p180

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Indirect and Mental Powers

 

Unless the Force Wall buys Mental Defense it is Transparent to Mental Attacks.

(likewise for anything going against any other Exotic Defense like Power or Flash)

 

No - you do not need indirect to bypass a Force Wall that has no Mental Defense. see 5ER p180

 

yeah but I had stipulated it as a Mental Defence Force Wall - all it would deflect would be attacks based on ECV - transparent to everything else.

 

I presume that WOULD need indirect? Despite being LOS and so where mental powers would need indirect?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Indirect and Mental Powers

 

yeah but I had stipulated it as a Mental Defence Force Wall - all it would deflect would be attacks based on ECV - transparent to everything else.

 

I presume that WOULD need indirect? Despite being LOS and so where mental powers would need indirect?

 

oi! I shldnt answer stuff before coffee.

 

Yes, you'd treat it exactly like any other Force Wall; you'd need Indirect.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Indirect and Mental Powers

 

yeah but I had stipulated it as a Mental Defence Force Wall - all it would deflect would be attacks based on ECV - transparent to everything else.

 

I presume that WOULD need indirect? Despite being LOS and so where mental powers would need indirect?

 

Mental powers have indirect characteristics in that they can ignore intervening objects that would normally block LOS (assuming the person targeting them can perceive through them or is willing to fire blind). So, for instance, you can mind control someone you can see through a bulletproof window even though you could not shoot them through the window (at least not without breaking it first somehow).

 

Mental powers are not specified as having 'indirect' but they simulate the effect, which is why they are not stopped by hardened barriers like indirect attacks are.

 

A mental attack will 'travel' from the attacker to the target, and can be stopped or attenuated on the way if it passes through anything with mental defence, including a MD Force Wall. A normal force wall it just ignores.

 

If you buy indirect for a mental power then you can circumvent a MD Force Wall by putting the point of origin of the mental power on the other side of it. However, if the FW is hardened then that will overcome the indirect advantage but not the innate indirect aspects of mental powers as such.

 

There is, therefore, a point (at least potentially) in buying mental powers with indirect, but it is not going to help you out that often.

 

I trust that is now as clear as mud

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Indirect and Mental Powers

 

THREADJACK:

 

Most amusing use of an indirect Mental Power I ever did was nailing a villain who went Enraged when he was attacked mentally by using a Fully Indirect Ego Attack to make it look like his own team mentalist zapped him.

 

Now back to your thread in progress.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Indirect and Mental Powers

 

THREADJACK:

 

Most amusing use of an indirect Mental Power I ever did was nailing a villain who went Enraged when he was attacked mentally by using a Fully Indirect Ego Attack to make it look like his own team mentalist zapped him.

 

Now back to your thread in progress.

 

That is quick thinking and impressive play.