How Long Does It Take To Fall?

[Sean Waters]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

On the maths is hard thing, IMO there is nothing wrong with having a complex and even difficult idea informing a mechanic, so long as the front end is simple to understand and use, which is why we have a STR chart and a falling chart/VF rules which don't show their working.

 

We have to assume that enough of the target audience are going to be disenchanted with anything that makes you work stuff out beyond pretty simple addition and subtraction - Hero gets stick for being too math based and complicated because of the way we apply power modifiers. Earlier editions had charts for that too.

 

We also have to assume that not being good at math, or not liking math (not necessarily the same thing) is not something that should matter in a decent RPG: to borrow a computer simile, the mechanics are like the source code, the RAW is like the GUI.

[Crypt]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

Remarkable' date=' and, like prestidigitator, I've repped you too recently. Mind you, it make me think even more that VF as is doesn't work as well as it could without some tweaking: a max pd normal could pretty much guarantee surviving a terminal velocity fall if you just used VF: a mass factor, which is probably why we have the doubling. I'd rather use a different mechanism to correct it.[/quote']

 

A normal BODY 8 / PD 2 / 100kg falling at T.V character would takes 9+2=11D => an average of 11 body -2 = 9 body , he would be at BODY -1......... what do you think about the "100% BODY in 1 attack = sudden death" idea ? Or if you prefer "Multiple disabled (p417) locations = sudden death" ? Or if x limbs are broken (p412) ?

Maybe it would be simpler and more logical than any dmg doubling or BODY tweaking (?)

[Crypt]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

On the maths is hard thing, IMO there is nothing wrong with having a complex and even difficult idea informing a mechanic, so long as the front end is simple to understand and use, which is why we have a STR chart and a falling chart/VF rules which don't show their working.

[......]something that should matter in a decent RPG: to borrow a computer simile, the mechanics are like the source code, the RAW is like the GUI.

 

Maths are for the game design.

Charts are for the actual play.

 

(and logs help simplify everything....that's what they were made for.)

[Sean Waters]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

A normal BODY 8 / PD 2 / 100kg falling at T.V character would takes 9+2=11D => an average of 11 body -2 = 9 body , he would be at BODY -1......... what do you think about the "100% BODY in 1 attack = sudden death" idea ? Or if you prefer "Multiple disabled (p417) locations = sudden death" ? Or if x limbs are broken (p412) ?

Maybe it would be simpler and more logical than any dmg doubling or BODY tweaking (?)

 

I like the 100% Body in one hit = dead*, the problem is that only characters with absolutely nothing done to them are likely to conform to the 2pd/10 (or 8) Body paradigm - every character is likely to have more defences and, possibly external defences too (although the 'real' limitation might cope with that bit): 8 pd will transform an 11DC hit into 3 Body.

 

Whilst we can not necessarily cover every base with a carpet of lush realism, anyone in the normal human range should expect to die or spend months in hospital after a terminal velocity fall, not just suffer a broken arm - if that.

 

That's why I suggested an NND component to falling damage, either as part fo the actual damage or as a disadvantage on normal characters.

 

 

 

*an exponential aspect to damage is the reason I suggested that if you don't get pretty close to max damage (I suggested within 20 points) the damage takes much longer to get through.

[Crypt]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

That's why I suggested an NND component to falling damage

 

yes, that makes sense. (at least a lot more than doubling)

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

Easy to use?” Hmm… I don’t think it is easy to use in the context we are talking about' date=' which is on the fly, during game play [/quote']

There's no more to figure out "on the fly" as we normally do in a game, with characters moving around (often in 3 dimentions) and shooting at each other at different ranges. g, for example, never has to be determined on the fly, because 99% of the time, you're in normal Earth gravity, so g=10. And even when you aren't on earth, the GM knows in advance the gravity of the planet the adventure takes place on.

 

So let's perform an "on the fly" calculation:

 

The Orange Orc has captured EarwigMan's girlfriend, Stacy Gwen, and has dropped he off a bridge to the ground 100 meters below. How long does EarwigMan have to catch Stacy?

 

t = sqrt( 2 y / g ), but we don't have to write all that, since we already know that g is 10, we can just say

 

t = sqrt( y/5 ), y is 100, so

 

t = sqrt(100/5) = sqrt(20) = about 4.5 seconds.

 

Simple.

[Greywind]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

And even when you aren't on earth' date=' the GM knows in advance the gravity of the planet the adventure takes place on.[/quote']

Objection!

 

Assumption.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

So' date=' how long does it take about 10 gamers to screw in a...I mean figure out how long a fall takes?[/quote']

LOL

 

 

There's no more to figure out "on the fly" as we normally do in a game' date=' with characters moving around (often in 3 dimentions) and shooting at each other at different ranges. g, for example, never has to be determined on the fly, because 99% of the time, you're in normal Earth gravity, so g=10. And even when you aren't on earth, the GM knows in advance the gravity of the planet the adventure takes place on.[/quote']

So let's perform an "on the fly" calculation:

 

The Orange Orc has captured EarwigMan's girlfriend, Stacy Gwen, and has dropped he off a bridge to the ground 100 meters below. How long does EarwigMan have to catch Stacy?

 

t = sqrt( 2 y / g ), but we don't have to write all that, since we already know that g is 10, we can just say

 

t = sqrt( y/5 ), y is 100, so

 

t = sqrt(100/5) = sqrt(20) = about 4.5 seconds.

 

Simple.

 

And you completely ignore the rest of the examples and definitions. Anyway...

 

You say:

"t=sqrt( 2y/g)" and state that g is 10

and then jump to "t=sqrt(y/5)" with no explanation of why g which is 10 became 5 or what happened to the 2 in the equation. Now my understanding of math is such that I understand the step you skipped, but a fair number of people wouldn't (or at least would have to stop and think about it a moment. You can't even give a truly "simple" example because you're so intent on making it "simple" that you are leaving things out for the reader to figure out on their own). And then, skip the process of figuring out the Square Root. Here's the most common method for finding the square root of a number without a calculator:

The most common iterative method of square root calculation by hand is known as the "Babylonian method" or "Heron's method" after the first century Greek philosopher Heron of Alexandria who first described it.[1] It involves a simple algorithm, which results in a number closer to the actual square root each time it is repeated. To find r, the square root of a real number x:

1. Start with an arbitrary positive start value r (the closer to the square root of x, the better).

2. Replace r by the average between r and x/r, that is: (It is sufficient to take an approximate value of the average in order to ensure convergence.)

3. Repeat step 2 until r and x/r are as close as desired.

That doesn’t seem simple to me and you have to be able to do that to figure out the former equation. Unless you assume a calculator present; this is likely but not guaranteed. I’ve played whole campaigns (granted, not with Hero System) where no one, not even the GM, ever whipped out a calculator.

Again, complex, compound, and in the context of using it on the fly, during game play, not easy. It just doesn’t qualify as simple.

Also, when dealing with flying characters I’m usually measuring height by how far they’ve moved so in hexes. Now this is easy to turn to meters, by multiplying by two, but it is another step. Also, like many players in the USA I do height of people, buildings, landmarks, et cetera in feet, (or maybe yards, but usually feet).

So, turn feet or hexes into meters, then do a two or three part equation. Then, if necessary figure damage (I know the OP didn’t ask for that, but it would usually be part of the same situation). Does not sound simple to do without interrupting play. At least not compared to looking at a chart…

 

Personally I think of math that is simple as anything I can do with nothing more than a pen and paper in less than a minute. So, that’s most addition, subtraction, multiplication, even most long division as long as you always stop at the same number of decimals out (I usually only do 4). Then again, this is totally opinion on my part. Simple is subjective.

Also, I like how you do an example “on the fly” over the internet. I’m sure you did it quickly and in your head, but anyone could spend 20 minutes doing a much more difficult problem and then post it as an example of doing it “on the fly”.

 

EDIT: Decimals, not Decibels...(stupid spell check)

[SteveZilla]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

There's a solution out there...I know it*

 

 

 

 

 

*and it might well be to have normal humans built with much less Body. 5 sounds about right.

 

that's probably the simplest' date=' the most elegant and the most in line with the Hero's philosophy of customisation.[/quote']

 

Or, you could give all normal humans this Physical Limitation:

 

Mere Mortal:

All The Time, Greatly: 20 Points

Description: A character with this Disadvantage takes double the amount of BODY damage from any attack. This represents a character who is a true normal.

[prestidigitator]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

I don't know about instant death, but I'd be very tempted to apply Disabling and bleeding rules in the case of one 100% Body wound, even if the game didn't normally use them.

[SteveZilla]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

I would like to point out that the opening question is in doubt. You being falling once gravity assumes influence upon your direction of travel.

 

Answer: The same length of time it takes to reach a hard, unyielding surface.

 

The question should be "how long does it take to stop falling".

 

A tiny fraction of time. After all, it's not the fall that kills, it's the sudden stop at the end.

[SteveZilla]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

So I have a teleporter' date=' and he wants to teleport a parked car 20" above an enemy. When does the car land? This phase? Next segment? Next phase?[/quote']

 

Why not just teleport the enemy 20" into the air above a parked car?

[Greywind]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

...the enemy flies...

[Crypt]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

Or, you could give all normal humans this Physical Limitation:

 

Mere Mortal:

All The Time, Greatly: 20 Points

Description: A character with this Disadvantage takes double the amount of BODY damage from any attack. This represents a character who is a true normal.

 

 

For my very own taste NND for all falls is even better.

[Crypt]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

A fix from another thread, but i think it should be here instead.

 

 

- DC x = 64*(2^x-1) J (i don't care some would disagree with that , the VF rules are a proof.) EDIT: it seems i talked to fast about J and DC, it seems it's wrong but it's late so i'll verify that tomorrow

 

 

Fix: It seems that J.Kim made a small mistake.

It should be:

DC x = 88.889*(2^x) Joules. instead of DC x = 32*(2^x) J

 

note: 88.88888889 is the kinetic energy of a 25Kg (0d) body moving at VF0 (16"/turn) = (25/2)*((32/12)^2).

 

 

so DC 1 = 177.778 J, not 64.

 

http://cryptmaster.free.fr/HERO/joules.php

 

Eg.

200kg moving or falling at 30m/s = 100*30^2 = 90000 J

 

200kg = MASS 15 = 3d

30m/s = VF 7 ============= 3+7=10.

88.889*(2^10) = 91022 Joules

 

 

 

800kg moving or falling at 120.68m/s = 400*120.68^2 = 5 825 464 J

 

800kg = MASS 25 = 5d

120.68m/s = VF 11 ============= 5+11=16.

88.889*(2^16) = 5 825 422 Joules

 

It works.

[Alibear]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

If we say all 'normal' people have 1-3 pd then the falling rules work at a cursury glance don't they?

[Crypt]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

If we say all 'normal' people have 1-3 pd then the falling rules work at a cursury glance don't they?

 

By "work" do you mean "tend to kill" ?

 

The falling rules work.

Even without the X2.

 

The very big question is: if my character has x PD, y rPD and z BODY should i be suprised when my character can fall at 250 km/h on the ground without suffering any wound ?

This all depends on what PD, rPD and BODY are, how you use them when crafting a character, etc.

 

If something must be changed this is not the falling rules. If you intended a character to die from a fall then you should have lowered some of his stats, but not changed the falling rules.

 

The VF version of falling is very realistic. But in the other hand giving stats like more than 10 BODY or 2PD means that you want to play cinematic characters, not realistic ones. So they may survive a big fall. Even a 10 BODY character is in the tough part of normals or in the "lucky" part (Indiana is not tougher than a bodybuilded guard but he will survive, not the guard.)

[Alibear]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

My thoughts exactly. 10 Str, 10 Dex, 10 body goon is a tough guy.

 

Edit: especially if he has 2 pd.

[Crypt]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

My thoughts exactly. 10 Str' date=' 10 Dex, 10 body goon [i']is[/i] a tough guy.

 

Edit: especially if he has 2 pd.

 

a terminal velocity fall would do 11 BODY on the average (100 kg, Earth's gravity, etc....) or 22 BODY with the X2.

 

22 BODY would kill him. He would be at BODY -10. This is the same as a long series of attacks which crush him to negative BODY. (this is not the "critical" which kills....unlike in RM.)

 

11 BODY : he would be at BODY 1. It could still kill him if you use some house rules as realistic as the VF falling rules are (Major injuries computed from % of BODY taken in 1 shot or the like.) (here, this is the critical which kills )

 

 

 

PS: Weightlifting record: 263.5 kg "clean & jerk" ==> STR 17

[Sean Waters]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

A terminal velocity fall will kill a normal human almost every time.

 

Hero defines up to 8 pd and 20 Body as 'normal characteristic maxima'. Whilst I agree anyone with stats like that would be exceptional they are still 'normal' as far as the system goes.

 

+6pd makes a big difference to falling damage, but shouldn't: toughness has minimal effect on 'real' falling damage. You can only ignore the system effect if you ignore the defences.

 

IMO 20 Body is ridiculous for a 'normal' human. That is another argument altogether, but it makes it almost impossible to have a realistic terminal falling effect for all 'normal' Hero characters: you would need to do over 20 Body past defences to kill (and then not instantly) a normal.

 

The current rules allow 30d6 terminal falls which will kill any normal even with extreme stats (albeit not instantly). To that extent they work. Mind you that's more damage than Grond can haymaker, which just seems wrong.

[Alibear]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

Maybe we aim too low with 12d6 punches?

 

30 damage class attacks would be much more fun to roll.

[Crypt]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

Increasing everything is not the solution.

[Sean Waters]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

Well, it is a solution, but I suspect we would rapidly run out of room

[Alibear]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

And dice.

[Crypt]

Re: How Long Does It Take To Fall?

 

And dice.

 

that's why a generic system must not be linear.