Sword MA and question.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Sword MA and question.

 

My mistake. That doesn't' date=' however, change the fact that you can't "abort to Grapple" which is what he was using to make the exception for "abort to Bind". Correct? Or am I way off base? I note you didn't comment on what I said about Bind not being a defensive action. I'll assume that means I'm reading the book correctly.[/quote']

 

Right, you can't abort to Grapple, totally correct.

 

As far as Bind, technically I believe you are correct and that it can't be aborted to (without checking the books).

 

However I personally consider it similar to Dispel and Force Wall. It can be used offensively and defensively. Personally, I would allow someone to Abort to Bind to block an incoming attack against themselves; it allows for some cool swashbuckling moments and a prolonged Bind creates an opportunity for a good dialogue and good drama. Mechanically, without the ability to Abort to a Bind, the ability is pretty useless and subsequently rarely taken. Note that I don't re-cost the element for this.

 

And on a side note, I also allow Dispel to be Aborted to if used defensively; it makes counter magic viable. I'm pretty liberal about arbitrating "defensive" when it comes to Aborting -- if its not an attack on an opponent directly or slightly indirectly, even if an ability requires an "attack roll" to resolve I'm willing to entertain a good explanation from a player as to why an Abort is appropriate in a particular situation.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Sword MA and question.

 

I guess I like Bind as a pro-active action, but I have not used it all that much, so I can understand a difference of opinion. The way I see it, it might not be useful when facing hordes of little gremlins or whatever, but if you got one or two big enemies with weapons and you bind their weapons they have to spend a phase just trying to break free. He's open to hits from the rest of the party, Possible open to hits from your other hand (I'd have to double check that), and if he doesn't break free he just wasted a phase and you can break the bind and attack at your leisure. It seems pretty good to me, but like I said, I haven’t used it a lot and your experience is probably correct, at least for certain types of games.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Sword MA and question.

 

It all comes down to efficiency. Bind is typically seen on "light" warriors and rogues --> more buckleswashing / finesse oriented characters. Such characters rarely have high strengths -- high strength characters can bear the weight of armor and heavier weapons and it usually makes more sense for them to attack or if absolutely necessary (their defenses can't bounce an attack) dodge or block.

 

For the light fighter, the +10 STR of Bind lets them tie up a heavier fighter, or at least have a chance of doing it; and extra DC w/ Maneuvers helps. However, it's still a relatively passive aggressive action for them as it hampers but does not wound an opponent. Disarm is clearly more aggressive and advantageous, as is any Target Falls Maneuver, and a FMove Maneuver that lets a light fighter attack while keeping some distance is even more aggressive.

 

In practice a Bind is basically a special purpose Grab, and it loses out to Disarm and Legsweep and Passing Strike (etc). In my experience when a player takes Bind it's usually because of concept -- they've seen Zorro and Errol Flynn movies or Princess Bride or whatever and want a fencer; but after play starts a couple of disappointing Bind attempts later the ability never gets used again. Allowing it to be Aborted to on the other hand makes it a viable defensive strategy alongside block / dodge / d4c and it would see use.

 

{shrugs}

 

No big deal either way.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Sword MA and question.

 

Cool. Thanks for that point of view.

[Alibear]

Re: Sword MA and question.

 

You can abort with a Grappling Block, but only for the Block portion. The Block element comes with a bundled Abort, whether its listed or not. It's also mispriced (probably). Check these two posts:

 

HERO System 5th Edition Rules Q / A

HERO System 5th Edition Rules Q / A Followup

 

Thanks for the info.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Sword MA and question.

 

Keep in mind though that Bind is extraordinarily effective in the case of warriors who either use two weapons (use one to Bind the enemy's weapon, then attack with the free weapon) or is capable of using his/her Martial Arts both with his weapon and barehanded (bind with the weapon, then kick or headbutt the opponent into submission) so advantageous use of the Bind maneuver merely requires a bit of forethought when designing the character.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Sword MA and question.

 

Keep in mind though that Bind is extraordinarily effective in the case of warriors who either use two weapons (use one to Bind the enemy's weapon' date=' then attack with the free weapon) or is capable of using his/her Martial Arts both with his weapon and barehanded (bind with the weapon, then kick or headbutt the opponent into submission) so advantageous use of the Bind maneuver merely requires a bit of forethought when designing the character.[/quote']

 

Sure, but such a character could also just make two attacks instead. I'm not saying Bind isn't useful at all, I'm saying its not as aggressive / competitive as other equivalently priced options.

[paladin.oa]

Re: Sword MA and question.

 

Looks like I started a cool conversation, excellent.

 

Killer Shrike and all, thanks, I got just what I needed.

 

Now for another question, or rather a clarification.

 

In order to find out how many dice to roll for damage you use the damage classes table and x-reference the type of damage that the attack is inflicting. For example +3 DC means that you roll an extra 3D6 for normal damage (a club), or 1D6 for killing damage (a sword). Also STR damage is 1 DC for every five STR right?

 

The purpose behind this is that I want to be rolling straight D6's without dealing with halves or additions/subtraction, basically I am trying to make things "cleaner."

[Kristopher]

Re: Sword MA and question.

 

You cannot abort with Grappling Block or Defensive Throw (which is a Block' date=' Throw combo), you have to have a saved action to use either, so there's no justification for an exception.[/quote']

 

Where does it say that?

[Alibear]

Re: Sword MA and question.

 

Also STR damage is 1 DC for every five STR right?

 

For every 5 str above the str min, yes.

 

Damage =

Weapon damage (+1d6n for every 5 str above str min) +

Maneuver damage +

Damage classes +

Skill levels if applied for damage (every two can add 1d6)

 

 

 

Er, I think that's it. Why don't you post a character for us to look at and we can perhaps offer advice and options?

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Sword MA and question.

 

Where does it say that?

 

Read what Killer Shrike posted above, I was wrong. You can abort to the block aspect, which is included in the "block" aspect automatically, but you cannot use the offensive portion. This is spelled out in the Ultimate Martial Artist, and I think it's in the Combat Handbook as well.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Sword MA and question.

 

Looks like I started a cool conversation' date=' excellent.[/quote']

 

Absolutely!

 

 

In order to find out how many dice to roll for damage you use the damage classes table and x-reference the type of damage that the attack is inflicting. For example +3 DC means that you roll an extra 3D6 for normal damage (a club), or 1D6 for killing damage (a sword). Also STR damage is 1 DC for every five STR right?

 

Correct, for the most part.

 

Normal Damage: +1DC = +1D6

Killing Damage: +1DC = +1/3D6 (see the Damage Class chart in the 5th Revised book or Combat Handbook)

For example: 1DC = 1point of Body damage, 2DC = 1/2D6 body damage, 3DC = 1D6 body damage. The progression continues along those lines. There is an alternate to 1/2D6 damage roll, being D6-1, but it is less "accurate" to the breakdown between the damage classes than the 1/2D6 roll.

 

Yes, Strength damage gives you a +1DC add per 5pts of STR involved. Thus a character with a 20 STR does (20/5) 4D6 Normal damage.

 

Continuing along those lines, a character uses their STR score to add Damage Classes to the base damage of a weapon. However they only count the amount of STR that exceeds the weapons STR minimum. Thus if a character has a weapon with a STR minimum of 10, then they only count those points of STR above 10 to add to that weapons Damage Class.

 

In the case of Martial Arts Maneuvers, adding the damage from Maneuvers to Killing damage works slightly differently. Every +2D6N damage adds +1 to the Damage Class of a killing attack. (i.e. a killing damage weapon used with said maneuver), thus those Maneuvers with +2D6 damage, adds +1 DC to a weapon and those maneuvers that do +4D6 damage adds +2 DC to a weapon used with it. Count Extra DC's with a Martial art normally before applying them as a bonus to a weapon (thus it requires +2 Extra DC's to add another +1DC to a weapon)

I hope that didn't confuse you!

 

The purpose behind this is that I want to be rolling straight D6's without dealing with halves or additions/subtraction, basically I am trying to make things "cleaner."

 

Dude, get used to the halves and plusses. They are an inherent part of the system and it is very difficult to get around them unless you simply use Normal Damage for everything.

 

Also, don't forget that a character can use 2 Combat Skill Levels to add to the damage of an attack. Thus you can use CSL's to round out your character's damage dice to avoid said half-dice.

[paladin.oa]

Re: Sword MA and question.

 

Thanks for the replies.

 

I was a bit silly with the cleanliness, so never you mind that.

 

I'll post my characters up as soon as I get the initial write-ups done, I have another thing to figure out before I can do so, but that's for another thread.

[Alibear]

Re: Sword MA and question.

 

In the case of Martial Arts Maneuvers, adding the damage from Maneuvers to Killing damage works slightly differently. Every +2D6N damage adds +1 to the Damage Class of a killing attack. (i.e. a killing damage weapon used with said maneuver), thus those Maneuvers with +2D6 damage, adds +1 DC to a weapon and those maneuvers that do +4D6 damage adds +2 DC to a weapon used with it.

 

 

This bit is quite important and easily missed so I'll highlight it.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Sword MA and question.

 

Thanks for the replies.

 

I was a bit silly with the cleanliness, so never you mind that.

 

I'll post my characters up as soon as I get the initial write-ups done, I have another thing to figure out before I can do so, but that's for another thread.

 

Not a problem. I also used to have an aversion to the half-dice concept, but once I started playing with it regularly, it became quite intuitive. The best thing to do is to roll dice of all the same color except for the half-die, make that one a different color so you can easily tell it apart from the others.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Sword MA and question.

 

Not a problem. I also used to have an aversion to the half-dice concept' date=' but once I started playing with it regularly, it became quite intuitive. The best thing to do is to roll dice of all the same color except for the half-die, make that one a different color so you can easily tell it apart from the others.[/quote']

 

Agreed.

 

 

For my part, I try to avoid partial dice where I can, but I don't lose any sleep over it either and the extra granularity is useful at times. I do have a tendency to use the 1d6-1 version of 1/2d6 for killing attacks but I treat it as (0-5) to make it somewhat fair (it still averages 3 vs 2 points however).

[Kristopher]

Re: Sword MA and question.

 

Right, you can't abort to Grapple, totally correct.

 

As far as Bind, technically I believe you are correct and that it can't be aborted to (without checking the books).

 

However I personally consider it similar to Dispel and Force Wall. It can be used offensively and defensively. Personally, I would allow someone to Abort to Bind to block an incoming attack against themselves; it allows for some cool swashbuckling moments and a prolonged Bind creates an opportunity for a good dialogue and good drama. Mechanically, without the ability to Abort to a Bind, the ability is pretty useless and subsequently rarely taken. Note that I don't re-cost the element for this.

 

And on a side note, I also allow Dispel to be Aborted to if used defensively; it makes counter magic viable. I'm pretty liberal about arbitrating "defensive" when it comes to Aborting -- if its not an attack on an opponent directly or slightly indirectly, even if an ability requires an "attack roll" to resolve I'm willing to entertain a good explanation from a player as to why an Abort is appropriate in a particular situation.

 

It all comes down to efficiency. Bind is typically seen on "light" warriors and rogues --> more buckleswashing / finesse oriented characters. Such characters rarely have high strengths -- high strength characters can bear the weight of armor and heavier weapons and it usually makes more sense for them to attack or if absolutely necessary (their defenses can't bounce an attack) dodge or block.

 

For the light fighter, the +10 STR of Bind lets them tie up a heavier fighter, or at least have a chance of doing it; and extra DC w/ Maneuvers helps. However, it's still a relatively passive aggressive action for them as it hampers but does not wound an opponent. Disarm is clearly more aggressive and advantageous, as is any Target Falls Maneuver, and a FMove Maneuver that lets a light fighter attack while keeping some distance is even more aggressive.

 

In practice a Bind is basically a special purpose Grab, and it loses out to Disarm and Legsweep and Passing Strike (etc). In my experience when a player takes Bind it's usually because of concept -- they've seen Zorro and Errol Flynn movies or Princess Bride or whatever and want a fencer; but after play starts a couple of disappointing Bind attempts later the ability never gets used again. Allowing it to be Aborted to on the other hand makes it a viable defensive strategy alongside block / dodge / d4c and it would see use.

 

{shrugs}

 

No big deal either way.

 

I do agree with Killer Shrike on his reasoning here.

 

Furthermore, I don't really understand why it would be a bad thing to allow a character to use Grappling Block to abort to a block that would result in having the attacker's attacking limb grappled. It happens in real martial arts all the time, doesn't it?

[Kristopher]

Re: Sword MA and question.

 

Still can't legally add abort to Bind maneuver. Still for 10 points you could buy 5 skill levels in interrupt. Bind becomes so much more useful then.

 

The question I forgot to ask... skill levels in interrupt?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Sword MA and question.

 

The question I forgot to ask... skill levels in interrupt?

 

I assumed he meant levels only for DEX offs. This character has such an ability:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/EnforcersINC/Characters/Jackhammer.html

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Sword MA and question.

 

I do agree with Killer Shrike on his reasoning here.

Furthermore, I don't really understand why it would be a bad thing to allow a character to use Grappling Block to abort to a block that would result in having the attacker's attacking limb grappled. It happens in real martial arts all the time, doesn't it?

It goes against Hero's philosophy of only being able to abort to defensive actions. Being in control of a grappling situation (in other words, making a grab) is not a defensive action. If you want that option you can hold an action in case you need to block, thus allowing you to use the grapple portion of the attack just like it happens in real martial arts all the time.

[Alibear]

Re: Sword MA and question.

 

It goes against Hero's philosophy of only being able to abort to defensive actions. Being in control of a grappling situation (in other words, making a grab) is not a defensive action. If you want that option you can hold an action in case you need to block, thus allowing you to use the grapple portion of the attack just like it happens in real martial arts all the time.

 

I agree and personally don't like to mess with the rules when we just need to apply the rules we have a bit better. (imo)

 

The question I forgot to ask... skill levels in interrupt?

 

To wait and interupt an opponents attack you use opposing dex rolls. Skill levels in that cost 2 points each.

[Alibear]

Re: Sword MA and question.

 

double post