calling for backup

[ayinde]

OK so my character can call a team of 4 solders 150 points each and the solders come in a transport of whatever type needed should I build this as a summon for the vehicle and give the vehicle a weird duplication power? Is that the right take or would you do it different

[Vulcan]

Re: calling for backup

 

First: talk to your GM about this. He may not want to deal with you being able to call in backup at will. Or he may have a way he prefers for you to build it.

 

If it were my character, and the GM was okay with the idea, then I would likely make them Followers, myself.

[ayinde]

Re: calling for backup

 

The concept for the character is the field leader of a shield like group before the campaign it was the job of his task force to deal with meta situations no he and his team have been added as liaison to a new super team think a more normal capt with a hint of old nick fury

[prestidigitator]

Re: calling for backup

 

If you are going to do it as a Summon, I'd summon the backup team members and have them split the cost of the vehicle as their own Vehicle Perk. Unless, that is, you are going to make direct use of the vehicle. In that case I might have you buy it as a separate (possibly Linked) Summon. If the vehicle really doesn't have much combat use, I might just call it the SFX of the Summon instead, depending on the game.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: calling for backup

 

If the vehicle is just a drop ship, in the pot five by five, then its just the SFX for the Summon of the troopers.

 

If the vehicle is a useful "real" thing then your base character should pay the points for it. The idea that it delivers "da boys" is just how you choose to employ it.

 

You might want to increase your summon to x8, and make one of the extras a pilot, and another a copilot. Of the other two extras, a medic and a mechanic might round out your

"support personnel".

[Sean Waters]

Re: calling for backup

 

I'm with Killer Srike: unless you want to make use of the vehicle as something other than a way to explain how the support troops arrive, it is sfx.

 

If you DO want to make use of it:

 

Summon 8 151-point creatures, Expanded Class of Beings Limited Group (+1/2), Devoted (+3/4) (101 Active Points)

 

Should allow up to 7 troop types (which can include an engineer and a medic and such) in a M113A2 APC (or a transport 'copter) for transport with the expanded class covering 'military personel, vehicles and weapon platforms*'.

 

Of course you can tone down the level of loyalty and the point totals, even the amount of variation, if that is a bit much, but a summon can fit into a multipower, and as such is a pretty beefy power.

 

 

 

 

* What? You want artillery, don't you?

[ghost-angel]

Re: calling for backup

 

Throwing my hat in with Killer Shrike, and Sean here - the vehicle is most likely SFX for the troops to arrive.

 

If not, just expand the Class of Summoned to add it in.

[Fearghus]

Re: calling for backup

 

If you are going to do it as a Summon' date=' I'd summon the backup team members and have them split the cost of the vehicle as their own Vehicle Perk. Unless, that is, [i']you[/i] are going to make direct use of the vehicle. In that case I might have you buy it as a separate (possibly Linked) Summon. If the vehicle really doesn't have much combat use, I might just call it the SFX of the Summon instead, depending on the game.

 

This is exactly what I was thinking. Summon the guys and they split the vehicle with their points. I agree about asking your GM too. I know as a GM I would not want a player of mine to have a fire team at his beck and call.

[Sean Waters]

Re: calling for backup

 

This is exactly what I was thinking. Summon the guys and they split the vehicle with their points. I agree about asking your GM too. I know as a GM I would not want a player of mine to have a fire team at his beck and call.

 

I'm not sure that would help too much: you can not summon stuff at the 1/5 cost you normally have for vehicles, and splitting the cost would definitely be a GM call. Still, whatever rings your bell.

[Spence]

Re: calling for backup

 

This is exactly what I was thinking. Summon the guys and they split the vehicle with their points. I agree about asking your GM too. I know as a GM I would not want a player of mine to have a fire team at his beck and call.

 

Well you can always compensate with more minions

[prestidigitator]

Re: calling for backup

 

I'm not sure that would help too much: you can not summon stuff at the 1/5 cost you normally have for vehicles' date=' and splitting the cost would definitely be a GM call. Still, whatever rings your bell.[/quote']

 

No, you can't. But if the vehicle belongs to the team you are summoning and does not in any way act like your own equipment, then I'd think they would pay for it. I can't see that being an issue unless the PCs try to take advantage by using it themselves. Certainly running it past the GM is a good idea.

 

I think this wouldn't even be a debate if you summoned, say, Batman on his Batcycle. People would naturally expect that you summon Batman, and he paid for his own motorcycle. Why should the fact that we are talking about a team of summoned characters make it an issue?

[Sean Waters]

Re: calling for backup

 

No' date=' you can't. But if the vehicle belongs to the team you are summoning and does [i']not[/i] in any way act like your own equipment, then I'd think they would pay for it. I can't see that being an issue unless the PCs try to take advantage by using it themselves. Certainly running it past the GM is a good idea.

 

I think this wouldn't even be a debate if you summoned, say, Batman on his Batcycle. People would naturally expect that you summon Batman, and he paid for his own motorcycle. Why should the fact that we are talking about a team of summoned characters make it an issue?

 

I think there is a difference between character teams and summoned 'teams'. With a character team it is unfair to expect one member to buy the vehicle - they would be grossly underpowered.

 

However, with the summon it is different: Imagine a fire team with 8 members of 100 points each who want a 400 point Apache attack helicopter as a vehicle: if they each contribute 50 points and become 150 point summons: 30 base points +15 for 45 points. We get 8 troops PLUS a vehicle for one bargain price.

 

OR

 

We could have 7 troops at 100 points and have to cough up 400 points for the helicopter, which means we need a 400 point summon, which costs 80 points PLUS 15 for the 7 troops (and to add insult to injury we need to take an advantage to summon different types - but ignore that for now): cost at least 95 points.

 

Now that seems like a massive difference to me. Well, to anyone, I assume. the point is you ARE getting a 400 point Apache gunship. If you JUST summoned that it would cost you 80 points in summon.

 

So if you JUST get the Apache it costs 80. If you get the Apache and 8 troops it costs 45. In fact if you get 16 troops, the cost per troop drops to 25, so you need a 25 point summon, and you need 20 points of doubling. Same cost: 45 points. Twice the troops, same cost.

 

Hmm....

[prestidigitator]

Re: calling for backup

 

I think there is a difference between character teams and summoned 'teams'. With a character team it is unfair to expect one member to buy the vehicle - they would be grossly underpowered.

 

However, with the summon it is different: Imagine a fire team with 8 members of 100 points each who want a 400 point Apache attack helicopter as a vehicle: if they each contribute 50 points and become 150 point summons: 30 base points +15 for 45 points. We get 8 troops PLUS a vehicle for one bargain price.

 

OR

 

We could have 7 troops at 100 points and have to cough up 400 points for the helicopter, which means we need a 400 point summon, which costs 80 points PLUS 15 for the 7 troops (and to add insult to injury we need to take an advantage to summon different types - but ignore that for now): cost at least 95 points.

 

Now that seems like a massive difference to me. Well, to anyone, I assume. the point is you ARE getting a 400 point Apache gunship. If you JUST summoned that it would cost you 80 points in summon.

 

So if you JUST get the Apache it costs 80. If you get the Apache and 8 troops it costs 45. In fact if you get 16 troops, the cost per troop drops to 25, so you need a 25 point summon, and you need 20 points of doubling. Same cost: 45 points. Twice the troops, same cost.

 

Hmm....

 

Except that you aren't getting an apache if they pay for it; they are. Even if they are slavishly loyal they might not want you messing with their wings. People seem to forget that a Summon is not in any way, shape, or form equivalent to buying a follower with straight character points.

[Sean Waters]

Re: calling for backup

 

Except that you aren't getting an apache if they pay for it; they are. Even if they are slavishly loyal they might not want you messing with their wings. People seem to forget that a Summon is not in any way' date=' shape, or form equivalent to buying a follower with straight character points.[/quote']

 

If you don't get the advantage of having an Apache turn up when you whistle, it is sfx. If you do, the YOU pay for it.

 

Summoned minions can be far more loyal and useful than followers, but followers have continuity. I know they are not the same thing although there are numerous marked similarities, but for a combat team, summon is probably more useful as you are not actually risking permanent loss of your point investment, and continuity os often less important in combat than in social situations.

 

A slavishly loyal summoned minion will do what you tell them to, even 'crash that Apache into the BigBad, I need a distraction'. They are, after all, slavishly loyal...

[prestidigitator]

Re: calling for backup

 

If you don't get the advantage of having an Apache turn up when you whistle, it is sfx. If you do, the YOU pay for it.

 

Summoned minions can be far more loyal and useful than followers, but followers have continuity. I know they are not the same thing although there are numerous marked similarities, but for a combat team, summon is probably more useful as you are not actually risking permanent loss of your point investment, and continuity os often less important in combat than in social situations.

 

A slavishly loyal summoned minion will do what you tell them to, even 'crash that Apache into the BigBad, I need a distraction'. They are, after all, slavishly loyal...

Consider also the simplicity factor. If a character, team, monster, or whatever is written up before-hand, you can simply Summon something with their point total without having to rip everything apart and figure out what's from a vehicle and what isn't. That point total is supposed to mean something. It might as well help determine how costly the thing is to Summon, for one thing.

[Sean Waters]

Re: calling for backup

 

Consider also the simplicity factor. If a character' date=' team, monster, or whatever is written up before-hand, you can simply Summon something with their point total without having to rip everything apart and figure out what's from a vehicle and what isn't. That point total is supposed to mean [i']something[/i]. It might as well help determine how costly the thing is to Summon, for one thing.

 

 

One real problem with splitting the vehicle cost is the fact you can summon more minions (+5), and because you are splitting the vehicle cost between more summoned beings the power doesn't cost more, or very little more because the more you summon the less the cost per summoned being. I'm not sure that can be right.

 

Summon can be used to summon vehicles, and I can not see how it should be cheaper to get 8 troops (or 64 troops) and an Apache helicopter than JUST an Apache helicopter.

[Vulcan]

Re: calling for backup

 

There are good points on both sides of the argument. Sean is right in that it shouldn't be cheaper to get a gunship and 8 troops than it is to get the gunship. Prestidigitator is right in that if the troops pay for it, it's their gunship, not the PC's.

 

This is a case where the GM's opinion of the issue will be of prime importance, and all the rest of us are doing is working ourselves into an argument over something that we aren't going to have any real influence over.

 

As a GM: If the troops are splitting the cost of a HMMV or basic transport chopper, then I would be okay with that. If they are trying to get something with some heavy-duty firepower... not so much.

[Utech]

Re: calling for backup

 

Just to throw a couple totally different ideas out there...

 

Rather than Summon, how about Duplication?

Rather than Summon, how about some Followers and a radio?

[Amaraxis]

Re: calling for backup

 

Yes, you can have a Summons and have the summoned creatures pay for the vehicle.

No, as a GM, the character with the summons could NOT use the copter, no matter how loyal the followers are; unless you are using the rules that the players do not have to pay for 'found' items.

Also, while this may seem like a great idea, as a GM, I would REQUIRE you to designate a point of origin (if they bought the copter). Unless the summons is magical (in which case you dont need the copter anyway), they have to fly the physical distance from origin to call location, which takes time.

 

Thanx for your time...

 

~J~

[Sean Waters]

Re: calling for backup

 

In my view if the Copter is going to be used BY THE SUMMONED BEINGS as anything other than transport to get to the summon point, the summoner is getting the benefit of it. Even if they only shelter behind it, or use it to move about the battlefield, even if they never shoot a rocket or minigun at anyone.

 

Anyway, GM call, but you know what I think.

[Vondy]

Re: calling for backup

 

 

However, with the summon it is different: Imagine a fire team with 8 members of 100 points each who want a 400 point Apache attack helicopter as a vehicle...

 

/pedant attack on!

 

And these eight fire-team members fit in the Apache attack helicopter how, exactly?

 

/pedant attack off!

 

Sometimes, even when I understand the point, trying to imagine the superfluous details as presented cause my head to twist at odd angles in an attempt to stave off the Vertigo Pedantic .

 

Mayhaps we should go with a Blackhawk or Pave Lowe (yes, I know, the latter is now retired).

[Sean Waters]

Re: calling for backup

 

/pedant attack on!

 

And these eight fire-team members fit in the Apache attack helicopter how, exactly?

 

/pedant attack off!

 

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