Open ended damage

[Sean Waters]

This is a cross post from another thread - I thought it merited a bit of further discussion. We were talking about extreme damage results, killing attacks, stun lotteries, KA volatility of Body, the whole nine yards, and I include ghost-angel's post for context. This is a sort of critical system, in some ways, but divorced from the 'hit' roll, which is pretty damn Hero.

 

I'd welcome posts about other possible ways of opening up damage or other critical/fumble systems but I would appreciate comments on the idea below.

 

If it hurts proportionally to the injury wouldn't the Flat Stun X be advantageous? small injury less pain.

 

We're never going to simulate "reality" where a bra manages to stop a bullet but a well connected but not overly hard smack to the temple causes shock and death... at least not well. So - honestly - it's stupid to try.

 

Well you could do that with an open ended system for damage. I'm going to amend my original suggestion:

 

Killing attacks are rolled as equivalent DC normal attacks but are only stopped by rDEF (for Body) and 2xrDEF (for stun).

 

When rolling damage, every roll of '1' doesn't count toward damage AND removes a die from the remaining 'pool' (highest die first).

 

Every roll of '6' counts toward damage AND rolls again.

 

If a '6' is cancelled by a '1', the die is removed without counting BUT you still roll again.

 

Re-rolled dice can also cancel/roll again i.e. the system is open ended BUT you only cancel dice in the current round of rolling: if you re-roll a single 6 and it comes up '1', it cancels itself, not the '6' you rolled to gain the re-roll.

 

Technically this means any given shot can do no damage or extreme damage - but the most likely result is an average roll.

 

OK, let's try that (these are actual dice rolls not made up):

 

I'm rolling 8d6

 

6,6,4,4,3,3,2,2 = 30 stun and 10 Body

 

Roll the '6's again: 3,2 = +5 stun and +2 Body

 

Total = 35 stun and 12 Body - not bad for 8d6

 

Again:

 

6,6,6,5,3,2,2,2 (I'm on form today!) = 32 stun, 11 Body

 

Roll the '6's again: 3,2,1 - so the '1' cancels the '3' and we ass +2 stun +1 Body

 

Total = 34 stun, 12 Body

 

One more:

 

6,6,5,5,5,4,2,2 = 35 stun, 10 Body

 

Roll '6's again: 6,5 (+11 stun +3 Body)

 

Roll '6' again: 1 (no adds and nothing to cancel)

 

Total = 46 stun and 13 body!

 

OK, that is probably a little more volatile than I'd expected, but it is simple enough, many people like that sort of open ended roll, and it means you can simulate your 'reality': a 2d6 punch that manages double 6, is on the way toward potentially lethal damage: it can cause 10 Body 1 hit in 1024 (enough to kill an 8 Body normal), and a 4d6 attack (that would be the normal dice equivalent of a 1d6+1 KA - a reasonably normal bullet) does NO damage 1 hit in 1024 (i.e. it bounced off a bra strap).

 

Those numbers are far too common for actual reality but serve game reality OK. I'd probably rule that open ended damage only applies to 'living' targets: targets where which bit you hit matters - so a lucky punch from a normal is never ever going to go through a bank vault door. By 'living' I mean 'characters' even if they are supposed to be robots or undead. I might include a power to curb open ended damage, say as a type of Life Support, for 10 points.

 

Now someone better at maths than me is going to have to work out if that affects the average damage at all.

 

Thoughts:

 

1. we could roll normal damage normally and killing damage open ended.

 

2. If we do that it might be possible to 'charge' +1/4 (say) for killing attacks

 

3. One punch kills then revert to hitting your head on the way down on something that converts 1"of falling damage to a KA - and you have to be very unlucky with the damage rolls

 

NB My luck has turned: another 8d6 roll:

 

5,5,5,4,2,1,1,1: All the '5's cancelled = 6 stun, 2 Body

 

Bra strap, obviously...

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Open ended damage

 

Hmmm. Have to think about this one. Interesting though.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Open ended damage

 

its interesting but would slow things down considerably seems to me.

[schir1964]

Re: Open ended damage

 

Open-ended Damage Roll

This alternative damage roll allows for more volatility in damage results than the current system. Each Six may be rolled again to add more damage while each One does not add to the damage and cancels out the damage of the largest value die rolled correspondingly for that rolling of the dice.

 

• Die Roll [6]: Each Six rolled on the die is rolled again. If the Six rolled is not canceled out then it's value is included for calculating damage.
  
• Die Roll [1]: Each One rolled on the die cancels the damage of the highest value die rolled on a one to one pairing of the dice. Also, each One rolled is not included for calculating damage.
  
• Dice Rolling: Each rolling (or re-rolling) of dice is handled separately using this procedure.
  
• Examples
  
  • 6d6 Roll [654321]: The Six is rolled again but it's value is canceled (not included for damage) by the One that was rolled. Total Stun = 5 + 4 + 3 + 2 = 14 + Six Re-roll.
    
  • 6d6 Roll [654311]: The Six is rolled again but Six and Five's values are canceled (not included for damage) by the two One's that were rolled. Total Stun = 4 + 3 = 7 + Six Re-roll.
    
  • 6d6 Roll [664321]: The two Six's are rolled again but the first Six's value is canceled (not included for damage) by the One that was rolled. Total Stun = 6 + 4 + 3 + 2 = 15 + Six Re-roll + Six Re-roll.
    

 

GM Options

Objects Need Not Apply: Open ended damage only applies to living or complex targets that have areas that cause disproportional damage if hit.

Life Support - Difficult To Kill (10 Points): Prevents open ended damage (both 'good' and 'bad') that represents the character having no critical locations. Example: A living stone statue with no heart or brain as such so it hurts just as much where ever they are hit.

 

Concept By Sean Waters

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Sean Waters]

Re: Open ended damage

 

its interesting but would slow things down considerably seems to me.

 

 

Well not really - give it a go. In fact if you roll ones it speeds things up!

[Sean Waters]

Re: Open ended damage

 

I was trying this this morning and rolled NO DAMAGE on 8d6! I got four '1's. I also got a '6' but the reroll was a '1'.

 

I'm not sure how people feel about that but I thought I'd mention it.

 

I also managed 45 stun and 13 Body with another roll.

 

Most rolls are pretty average though, from the trials I've done. That seems like a better model for killing attacks to me: the possibility of extreme results, but just not so often, and with stun being proportional, but not locked to, Body.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Open ended damage

 

Open-ended Damage Roll

This alternative damage roll allows for more volatility in damage results than the current system. Each Six may be rolled again to add more damage while each One add nothing to the damage and cancels out the damage of the largest value die rolled correspondingly for that rolling of the dice.

 

• Die Roll [6]: Each Six rolled on the die is rolled again. If the Six rolled is not canceled out then it's value is included for calculating damage.
  
• Die Roll [1]: Each One rolled on the die cancels the damage of the highest value die rolled on a one to one pairing of the dice. Also, each One rolled is not included for calculating damage.
  
• Dice Rolling: Each rolling (or re-rolling) of dice is handled separately using this procedure.
  
• Examples
  
  • 6d6 Roll [654321]: The Six is rolled again but it's value is canceled (not included for damage) by the One that was rolled. Total Stun = 5 + 4 + 3 + 2 = 14 + Six Re-roll.
    
  • 6d6 Roll [654311]: The Six is rolled again but Six and Five's values are canceled (not included for damage) by the two One's that were rolled. Total Stun = 4 + 3 = 7 + Six Re-roll.
    
  • 6d6 Roll [664321]: The two Six's are rolled again but the first Six's value is canceled (not included for damage) by the One that was rolled. Total Stun = 6 + 4 + 3 + 2 = 15 + Six Re-roll + Six Re-roll.
    

   

 

 

Concept By Sean Waters

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

Thank you Christopher, for organising the thought. Two additions:

 

Option 1: Open ended damage only applies to living or complex targets that have areas that cause disproportional damage if hit.

 

Option 2: You can buy a form of Life Support that works to prevent open ended damage (both 'good' and 'bad') for (say) 10 points and represents the character having no critical locations - they might be a living stone statue, for instance, with no heart or brain as such, so it hurts just as much where ever they are hit.

[schir1964]

Re: Open ended damage

 

Thank you Christopher, for organising the thought. Two additions:

 

Option 1: Open ended damage only applies to living or complex targets that have areas that cause disproportional damage if hit.

 

Option 2: You can buy a form of Life Support that works to prevent open ended damage (both 'good' and 'bad') for (say) 10 points and represents the character having no critical locations - they might be a living stone statue, for instance, with no heart or brain as such, so it hurts just as much where ever they are hit.

Done.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Sean Waters]

Re: Open ended damage

 

Done.

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

Thank you Christopher

[Crypt]

Re: Open ended damage

 

I wonder what is the point of using open-ended damages, by themself, if they are not linked to the action roll

 

just my two cents: i (sometimes) use the action roll (the pure roll, not the success margin) in order to get the effect result (without rolling effect)

 

1- it uses the roll high variant (roll+mods vs 10) for action rolls.

 

2- when you roll a pure 18, reroll 1 die, you have 1/2 chance to transform this 18 in a 19, which himself has 1/2 chance to become a 20, etc...... (1/2 chance = roll 4+ on 1d6)

 

3- then i check the following table =>

http://cryptmaster.free.fr/HERO/chart.php

For instance, for a 2d damage weapon, if the attacker rolled 14 (pure roll) for his action roll then, if this is enough to hit, he does not roll the 2d damage, he knows that it may do 9 stun and 3 body. (or 9 body for a killing attack)

 

As it's possible to get a pure open_ended action roll (non-explosive, eg probability for a 24 is only 0.0036%) so are the damages.

 

It has a side effect i like = if you succeed to hit a very hard to hit foe then this is for a high % damage. (no bad luck dmg after a good luck hitting roll)

 

It doesn't use the success margin, it only uses the pure roll because CSL, location modifiers and maneuvers may already modify the final effect.

[Crypt]

Re: Open ended damage

 

Thank you Christopher, for organising the thought. Two additions:

 

Option 1: Open ended damage only applies to living or complex targets that have areas that cause disproportional damage if hit.

 

Option 2: You can buy a form of Life Support that works to prevent open ended damage (both 'good' and 'bad') for (say) 10 points and represents the character having no critical locations - they might be a living stone statue, for instance, with no heart or brain as such, so it hurts just as much where ever they are hit.

 

 

or you could use a simpler method, a non-explosive one, so you would not need to counter its explosive effects with a cancelling method.

 

For instance:

- roll damage dices.

- for each 6, roll 1 die, if the result is 4+ (1/2 chance) then it becomes a 7. Reroll until the die result is 3 or less.

 

eg: 4d

6 3 2 6

roll two dices (there were two 6) => 3 and 5 (5 is 4+ so you add +1 to the total)

roll one die (one of the two previous dices was 4+) => 6 (so you add +1)

roll one die => 2 (so you stop here)

 

total 6+3+2+6+1+1 = 19 instead of 17.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Open ended damage

 

I wonder what is the point of using open-ended damages, by themself, if they are not linked to the action roll

 

just my two cents: i (sometimes) use the action roll (the pure roll, not the success margin) in order to get the effect result (without rolling effect)

 

1- it uses the roll high variant (roll+mods vs 10) for action rolls.

 

2- when you roll a pure 18, reroll 1 die, you have 1/2 chance to transform this 18 in a 19, which himself has 1/2 chance to become a 20, etc...... (1/2 chance = roll 4+ on 1d6)

 

3- then i check the following table =>

http://cryptmaster.free.fr/HERO/chart.php

For instance, for a 2d damage weapon, if the attacker rolled 14 (pure roll) for his action roll then, if this is enough to hit, he does not roll the 2d damage, he knows that it may do 9 stun and 3 body. (or 9 body for a killing attack)

 

As it's possible to get a pure open_ended action roll (non-explosive, eg probability for a 24 is only 0.0036%) so are the damages.

 

It has a side effect i like = if you succeed to hit a very hard to hit foe then this is for a high % damage. (no bad luck dmg after a good luck hitting roll)

 

It doesn't use the success margin, it only uses the pure roll because CSL, location modifiers and maneuvers may already modify the final effect.

 

The thought had occurred

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36961

 

Although I initially multiplied damage by the chance of failing the roll, to give a damage distribution that was related to the actual chance of rolling the number. I have since modifed that to something very similar to what you suggest, with a more even distribution of damage - roll x DC/3 - which I think is the way your table works. I also had enormous difficulty in convicning anyone that a high roll (on a low roll system) should give you the big damage.

 

That works OK, but does something a bit different to open ended damage and one of the problems I had with it was that it is not a good match for exponential damage for Hero, which I've trying - unsuccessfully - to sneak on people.

 

Exponential dmage is all about getting the balance of Body and Def right - and, actually, any system where you roll body damage and then compare to defence doen't work well for exponential damage. I'm having a thought on that though.

[Cancer]

Re: Open ended damage

 

Just reporting some Monte Carlo exercises with your originally proposed prescription:

 

In 1,000,000 cases rolling 8d6,

the average damage was 24.5 +/- 12.2 (median 24)

the average BODY was 7.4 +/- 3.6 (median 7)

 

About 1.6% of all rolls do absolutely no damage at all (rolls of 4 or more 1's in the initial roll and no 6's)

3.2% cases doing 49 or more damage (the largest single case was 107!!)

About 1.2% of the cases of do 17 or more BODY (the largest single case was 33)

 

You get more extremes in both directions.