Bodkins Odds Posted July 2, 2010 Report Share Posted July 2, 2010 Re: Captain America Build 350 pts Even realizing that you probably don't have enough points for this I would like to point out that all of his physical stats should be at 30. Although a good bit of that should come with a No Figured -1/4 lim. And if you wanted to borrow anything from 6e, Unified Power: Super-Soldier Serum -1/4 would go good too for the chars with No Figured. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted July 3, 2010 Report Share Posted July 3, 2010 Re: Captain America Build 350 pts That would be a campaign decision and not necessarily reflect Cap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bodkins Odds Posted July 3, 2010 Report Share Posted July 3, 2010 Re: Captain America Build 350 pts Oh, I assumed you were using the standard characteristics comparison chart, my bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted July 3, 2010 Report Share Posted July 3, 2010 Re: Captain America Build 350 pts No. Cap should have a high 20's DEX with a STR near to 35. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted July 3, 2010 Report Share Posted July 3, 2010 Re: Captain America Build 350 pts Oh' date=' I assumed you were using the standard characteristics comparison chart, my bad.[/quote'] Anytime folks post 350 point (or 400 w/6e) versions of established comic book characters it's best to remember that they are using 'starting character' points so they should be be considered 'starting versions' of those characters. The 'peak human potential' with Cap does seem to demand that a campaign benchmark be set though. A character like Flash is a little easier (Fastest Man Alive), he just gets to be the fastest (or at least potentially fastest) speedster in that campaign world. With Cap though, you have to decide what other 'non-mutant, alien, cosmic, radiactive' characters can achieve with training and good normal human genes alone and put Cap's stats at that max from the get go (if you want to be true the Super-Solder Serum origin at least). So if you plan on ever allowing a normal human (like Hawkeye) to achieve a 30 DEX via XP you have to build Cap with it from the get-go. If you don't, you're not really building Cap, you're just building a character that looks like him (ie; DCU's Guardian). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathew Posted July 3, 2010 Report Share Posted July 3, 2010 Re: Captain America Build 350 pts Why would Cap have a STR of 35? I believe in all official media it says he lifts about 800 lbs, which is about x4 his body weight. That's REALLY strong. a STR 35 is liftting 7000 lbs! STR 20 is 880 lbs. That's part of why I consider the whole 30 stat increase for normals to be annoying power creep. Since I write a lot of 250 point and 350 characters, I really do try to limit stats to more realistic levels instead of the standard super heroic levels. I don't write heroes with SPDs above 4 unless they have a reason to be superhumanly fast. I figure STR based on body weight - so if someone is athletic, but only weights 90 lbs (like Marvel Girl), I figure STR of 8 or 10 is good enough, since it's still lifting double their body weight. I don't care if Cyclops is a trained superhuman, his POWER is his blasts, so I limit his stats to normal human. It saves points, and keeps things real. So a Cap with all 20s is peak human. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted July 3, 2010 Report Share Posted July 3, 2010 Re: Captain America Build 350 pts Which leads to the "peak vs potential" debate for Cap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checkmate Posted July 3, 2010 Report Share Posted July 3, 2010 Re: Captain America Build 350 pts Even realizing that you probably don't have enough points for this I would like to point out that all of his physical stats should be at 30. Although a good bit of that should come with a No Figured -1/4 lim. And if you wanted to borrow anything from 6e' date=' Unified Power: Super-Soldier Serum -1/4 would go good too for the chars with No Figured.[/quote'] I HATE this line of thinking. Ever since Hero came out with the peak human is 30 everyone thinks that anyone who's ever been described as "Peak human abilities" has to have a 30. Here's the problem with that line of thinking: Crossbones is a normal human, and he's stronger than Cap, so now what? Batman has been described as "Peak Human" (and shown to be just as strong and fast as Cap) except that Bane is stronger and the Cain Bat-girl chick is faster, now what? I just wish everyone would quit taking peak human so literally. To use a real world example, when the Govenator was Mr. Universe there would be no way he could move like Bruce Lee. With that much mass you just can't get it going that fast. There are normal people stronger than Cap/Batman, but they're not as fast. There are normal people faster than Cap/Batman, but they're not as strong, so giving them a 30 on everything just doesn't make sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted July 3, 2010 Report Share Posted July 3, 2010 Re: Captain America Build 350 pts Batman himself admitted that Nightwing was the more agile of the two of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted July 3, 2010 Report Share Posted July 3, 2010 Re: Captain America Build 350 pts Not sure where you're getting the power creep idea from. I just checked my old Justice Inc rulebook (circa 3rd ed Champions) and it clearly shows 20 is just the point at beyond which primary stats cost double. I'm 99.99% sure Danger International was setup exactly the same. Justice Inc is arguably in the Pulp Hero vein (quasi-super) but DI was firmly set as modern spy/military (no supers, just normal humans). The only thing that has changed since then is the suggested maximum stats of 30 published in 4e HERO. This is not something that just popped up in 6e or even 5e/er. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bodkins Odds Posted July 3, 2010 Report Share Posted July 3, 2010 Re: Captain America Build 350 pts 800lbs is how much he can officially lift over his head. A STR 20 Cap could only barely lift that off the ground. He needs at least a 23 STR to lift that over his head, but 25 would probably be safer However, since that is 4x his body weight then I can see him not actually getting to 30 STR. DEX and CON however... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted July 3, 2010 Report Share Posted July 3, 2010 Re: Captain America Build 350 pts The same Captain America able to sling his shield faster than a flying rocket... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathew Posted July 3, 2010 Report Share Posted July 3, 2010 Re: Captain America Build 350 pts Well, strength isn't just a raw number though, it's a fuction of body weight to lifting capacity. So maybe some characters can lift more weight, but it's because they themselves weigh more. Cap can lift x4 his body weight. In the real world the most powerful weightlifters can only lift about x3 their body weight. So cap's right at or exceeding max human. If some villian weighs 350 lbs and can lift x3 their body weight, that's 1050 lbs, stronger than cap, but still CAP IS STRONGER FOR HIS SIZE. Anyone making a character who weights 100 lbs, and has a STR 20, that character really is superhuman for their size. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted July 3, 2010 Report Share Posted July 3, 2010 Re: Captain America Build 350 pts ... There are normal people stronger than Cap/Batman, but they're not as fast. There are normal people faster than Cap/Batman, but they're not as strong, so giving them a 30 on everything just doesn't make sense. I think you've hit upon the crux of the issue with Cap. If another character obsessed with just being 'the strongest' (or the fastest, it makes no difference which) was given the super-soldier serum he should be able to reach a 30 in the appropriate stat(s). Cap has a more practical obsession, being the best HTH combatant he can be. So a blend with slightly lower maximums in each makes perfect sense. Rep to you sir. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted July 3, 2010 Report Share Posted July 3, 2010 Re: Captain America Build 350 pts Well, strength isn't just a raw number though, it's a fuction of body weight to lifting capacity. So maybe some characters can lift more weight, but it's because they themselves weigh more. Cap can lift x4 his body weight. In the real world the most powerful weightlifters can only lift about x3 their body weight. So it's right at max human. If someone weighs 350 lbs and can lift x3 their body weight, that's 1050 lbs, stronger than cap, but still CAP IS STRONGER FOR HIS SIZE. Anyone making a character who weights 100 lbs, and has a STR 20, that character really is superhuman for their size. Direct application of real-world physics on a comic book reality is, to put it mildly, stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathew Posted July 3, 2010 Report Share Posted July 3, 2010 Re: Captain America Build 350 pts 800lbs is how much he can officially lift over his head. A STR 20 Cap could only barely lift that off the ground. He needs at least a 23 STR to lift that over his head' date=' but 25 would probably be safer However, since that is 4x his body weight then I can see him not actually getting to 30 STR. DEX and CON however...[/quote'] It says "lift/press" 800 lbs. I consider that a bench press. The 800 lbs is supposed to be under optimum conditions when trying his best, so wouldn't you consider that PUSHING. If he has a 20, he can easily push to STR 25 right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathew Posted July 3, 2010 Report Share Posted July 3, 2010 Re: Captain America Build 350 pts Direct application of real-world physics on a comic book reality is' date=' to put it mildly, stupid.[/quote'] Yes, but the physics works - 20 is exactly Caps' STR. The only thing that doesn't work is people's power creep to 30 as normal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted July 3, 2010 Report Share Posted July 3, 2010 Re: Captain America Build 350 pts Captain America that lifted a motorcycle one-handed while going over the wall of Avengers Mansion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bodkins Odds Posted July 3, 2010 Report Share Posted July 3, 2010 Re: Captain America Build 350 pts Actually, I looked it up and that's how much he can military press. Which does go over his head, and wouldn't be done in the kind of situation were you can push, so yeah, 23-25 STR. Which motorcycle? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathew Posted July 3, 2010 Report Share Posted July 3, 2010 Re: Captain America Build 350 pts I was just reading the bio for the Marvel Transformers Iron Man toy, which mentions it's the only of the mechs that can fly in both modes, so that would imply the Captain America Hummer of Liberty can fly in robot mode. I guess I need to add that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checkmate Posted August 25, 2010 Report Share Posted August 25, 2010 Re: Captain America Build 350 pts I realize this is old, but Optimus Prime could fly in either mode (he needed Jetfire's pack in the movies), so you don't HAVE to add flight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathew Posted August 26, 2010 Report Share Posted August 26, 2010 Re: Captain America Build 350 pts Sorry, but what does that have to do with Captain America's Transformer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted August 26, 2010 Report Share Posted August 26, 2010 Re: Captain America Build 350 pts What does Captain America's Transformer have to do with building Captain America on 350 points? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathew Posted August 26, 2010 Report Share Posted August 26, 2010 Re: Captain America Build 350 pts More than Optimus Prime's ability to fly has. And why would Optimsu Prime being able to fly mean you don't have to buy it for Captain America's Transformer vehicle? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted August 26, 2010 Report Share Posted August 26, 2010 Re: Captain America Build 350 pts More than Optimus Prime's ability to fly has.Not really. And why would Optimsu Prime being able to fly mean you don't have to buy it for Captain America's Transformer vehicle?You don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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