Captain America Build 350 pts

[Trebuchet]

Re: Captain America Build 350 pts

 

You can't properly do Cap for less than 1000 points! Less than 10,000! Less than a bazillion!

 

Just thought I'd get this out of the way early.

[irchris5000]

Re: Captain America Build 350 pts

 

Since this is a 350pt build of Cap, i just quickly put together this build, its not really going in the direction you guys are thinking but maybe it will give you guys some more ideas. Now since this is a starting character. I figure I would build Cap right after he was thawed out by the Avengers.

 

NOTE: my GM doesn't use everyman skills, and just allows 11 free skills, hence why the total point cost is 383 instead of 350.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Captain America Build 350 pts

 

As previously pointed out...

 

The Shield should not be listed as expendable, difficult to replace. That is a limitation that is meant to reflect "eye of newt, toe of frog" type stuff. Contents that are used up by a spell of the likes.

 

As such, I think your shield is going to be substantially more expensive.

 

....

 

Since this is a 350pt build of Cap, i just quickly put together this build, its not really going in the direction you guys are thinking but maybe it will give you guys some more ideas. Now since this is a starting character. I figure I would build Cap right after he was thawed out by the Avengers.

 

NOTE: my GM doesn't use everyman skills, and just allows 11 free skills, hence why the total point cost is 383 instead of 350.

 

But other than the build of the shield itself (which could be traded out for the one I posted earlier) its a good Cap.

[MrAgdesh]

Re: Captain American Build 350 pts

 

3u 1) Shield Bash: (Total: 75 Active Cost, 26 Real Cost) Hand-To-Hand Attack +4d6, Personal Immunity (Only To Counter Damage Shield; +1/4),

 

2u 3) Cutting Edge (HTH or Ranged): Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1d6 (vs. PD), Personal Immunity (Only To Counter Damage Shield; +1/4), Range Based On STR (+1/4), +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Armor Piercing (+1/2), Does x1 1/2 Knockback (+1/2), Indirect (Any origin, any direction; Only To Counter Damage Shield; +3/4),

 

Hyperman, could you explain the "Only to Counter Damage Shield" Limitations on the Personal Immunity and Indirect?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Captain American Build 350 pts

 

Hyperman' date=' could you explain the "Only to Counter Damage Shield" Limitations on the Personal Immunity and Indirect?[/quote']

 

Sure.

 

Indirect:

Say Cap' is fighting somebody like Human Torch (say it's in an enclosed space). If he just punches or kicks him he runs the risk of burning himself on HT's 'body of flame' Damage Shield attack. If Cap decides to use the shield as a weapon then he avoids that risk since damage vs. the shield does not transfer to him.

 

Personal Immunity:

Say Cap' is fighting someone with kinetic-energy control powers. And he has a Triggered Reflection ability for HTH attacks that uses the Missile Deflection rules instead of a traditional Damage Shield or Triggered attack. The PI also keeps this type of counter-attack ability from working against Cap as well.

 

Now, most GM's would allow the above regardless of whether "the shield" was actually built with either of those advantages. But by adding them I avoid potential arguments on that point.

 

The 2 different advantages are probably overkill but I wanted to add as many Advantages as I could logically to keep the level of the attack as close to 4DC as possible.

 

edit (corrected labeling error).

[Ice9]

Re: Captain America Build 350 pts

 

The "no Ranged on HA" thing has always bugged me, given that you can put Ranged on HKA, and it would be perfect for representing blunt thrown objects. So I guess my personal solution would just be to ignore that rule and put ranged on it. But if I couldn't, I'd do this:

 

Blunt Thrown Object: HKA 1d6+1 (3d6-1 w/ STR), Range based on Strength (+1/4), Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4), Not Very Killing (uses full non-resistant defenses, only deals 1 BODY/DC max (full roll still used for STUN); -0?)

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Captain America Build 350 pts

 

The "no Ranged on HA" thing has always bugged me' date=' given that you [i']can[/i] put Ranged on HKA, and it would be perfect for representing blunt thrown objects. So I guess my personal solution would just be to ignore that rule and put ranged on it. But if I couldn't, I'd do this:

 

Blunt Thrown Object: HKA 1d6+1 (3d6-1 w/ STR), Range based on Strength (+1/4), Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4), Not Very Killing (uses full non-resistant defenses, only deals 1 BODY/DC even if STUN is higher; -0)

 

There have been quite a few debates about adding Range to HA's. The easiest way to understand the prohibition is to recognize that HA's themselves are just a form of Limited STR. The rules already forbid adding Range to STR (and recommend using TK or Stretching instead).

[MrAgdesh]

Re: Captain America Build 350 pts

 

For a Missile Reflection attack I can see the logic behind Personal Immunity. However, if you set off a Damage Shield by your HtH attack surely its your opponent's power damaging you? How do you use Personal Immunity against someone else's power?

 

I'm in the process of building many different powers myself and looking at different ideas. For a shield bash I was thinking more of triggered armour (or maybe Damage Reduction) that only worked vs Damage Shields.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Captain America Build 350 pts

 

You can't properly do Cap for less than 1000 points! Less than 10,000! Less than a bazillion!

 

Just thought I'd get this out of the way early.

 

But its true!

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Captain America Build 350 pts

 

For a Missile Reflection attack I can see the logic behind Personal Immunity. However, if you set off a Damage Shield by your HtH attack surely its your opponent's power damaging you? How do you use Personal Immunity against someone else's power?

 

I'm in the process of building many different powers myself and looking at different ideas. For a shield bash I was thinking more of triggered armour (or maybe Damage Reduction) that only worked vs Damage Shields.

 

I didn't explain myself clearly enough regarding Damage Shield & Indirect. In mechanical terms it makes the attack bypass the Damage Shield. Technically not RAW but at the (+3/4) Level it seemed like a reasonable way to build that particular aspect of an indestructable shield.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Captain American Build 350 pts

 

Small derail....

 

I just had a thought about a fight between Spider-Man and Captain America.

 

I've got the comics where they show the first fights between Cap' and Wolverine as well as Wolverine and Spider-Man. But I don't know if Spidey' and Cap' (Steve Rogers) have ever fought?

 

Do any current comic collectors know if they have?

If they have, can you elaborate on the outcome?

Anyway, my thought was that, that Spidey' should probably win*

 

*As he essentially did against Wolvie' except that to keep him down he would have had to snap his neck. Something Peter wouldn't do.

As another poster has noted, they fought in Civil War.

 

Steve could've won easily (he completely outpredicted every move Peter made and had always had counters in place for everything Peter tried. ...And =nothing= was getting through The Shield), but gave up the chance to pound Peter into paste to try and talk him into seeing the error of his ways.

 

This resulted in Peter getting an opportunity to use the custom ranged attack built into his "Iron Spider" armor. The consequence of which was that Cap realized Peter's new costume was a tactical element he had not yet analyzed, which meant either upping the threat level to the point where Peter was likely to be seriously hurt, ...or retreating.

 

Since Steve's goal was not hurting Peter, but rather convincing him that he was being misguided/misled, Steve used The Shield as a missile weapon to provide cover and retreated.

...and Peter managed to capture it with his webs.

 

Only to leave it webbed to a wall for Steve to later find because he did not think he or anyone else had the right to keep The Shield from Steve.

 

*Folks who think that raw physical superiority means that Spidey, or anyone else for that matter, could beat Cap HtH are forgetting that Cap has fought the likes of The Hulk, gods like Ares and Hercules, and robots like Ultron to a standstill when armed with The Shield.

(In HERO terms, it's an ungodly Unbreakable Unique OIF VPP with Armor + Damage Reduction 75% + EB + Force Field + KAw/ max STUNx + RKAw/ max STUNx + MD/R Usable On Others + ... as I said NOTHING gets through The Shield)

 

I wonder if his Clinging ability could be used to circumvent Cap's shield. By that I mean a situation where Spidey fakes a punch at Cap' which he in turn attempts to block with the Shield. Instead of actually punching though Spidey just puts the palm of his hand on the shield and turns on his Clinging ability. Since Cap's arm is strapped to the inside of the shield Spidey should be able to throw Cap' even though he didn't actually use a grab maneuver (in Hero terms at least). I guess this also begs the question: Can Spidey' cling to the shield?

 

I'm not even sure if this use of Clinging would require any additional stats in HERO terms (like Usable As Attack or Damage Shield).

Any thoughts?

1= Spidey can't cling to camera's or other small objects (he's dropped/lost cameras he was carrying for instance), so logical consistency says he should not be able to cling to The Shield either.

 

2= Spidey has not shown the ability to cling to objects being actively used. Let alone those being actively used against him.

 

3= NO ONE is ever faking out Cap in HtH. Feints just don't work against Steve.

 

4= Canonical material consistently shows that if you are strong enough to try and Grab/Throw Steve, he has the combat skills to redirect your grab into an attack by him. ("X" Grabs The Shield. Gets Haymakered two legged kick to the face/vitals/knees/whatever. "X" has included The Hulk and Ultron.) Or he justs let you Throw him and uses his absurd Acrobatics and Breakfall rolls.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Captain America Build 350 pts

 

Another quick thought about The Shield.

 

When thrown by Steve, it's velocity is in the 120-240mph range.

It's consistently been shown to be faster than an arrow fired by a bow.

[jtelson]

Re: Captain America Build 350 pts

 

Wow - that makes the decision to kill him off make a lot more sense.

 

Here's a character but if he looses a fight the fans are gonna go insane and you're gonna have to go through the mail.

 

Umm, I can write about 3 Mary Sue stories before russian roulette seems like a good idea plus maybe 5 morality plays about patriotism, right and wrong etc before it just gets preachy - then I'm gonna off him, deal with the mail, and get on with a super hero who is actually percieved as risking something by his fans.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Captain America Build 350 pts

 

Wow - that makes the decision to kill him off make a lot more sense.

 

Here's a character but if he looses a fight the fans are gonna go insane and you're gonna have to go through the mail.

 

Umm, I can write about 3 Mary Sue stories before russian roulette seems like a good idea plus maybe 5 morality plays about patriotism, right and wrong etc before it just gets preachy - then I'm gonna off him, deal with the mail, and get on with a super hero who is actually percieved as risking something by his fans.

A character "the fans are gonna go insane" in favor of is also called "a $large $repeating $revenue stream"...

 

Canon has also shown plenty of ways to beat Steve.

 

1= Get him when he is not in Hero ID. Without the Armor or (especially!) The Shield, he is a lot more vulnerable.

Sharon Carter killed him at point blank range with a pistol.

 

2= Get at him via threats that only superhuman/mutant physiology can handle.

Steve gets smoke inhalation in burning buildings. Steve can't fly. Steve has to breathe. Even Steve's shield isn't going to protect him from Knockback if an artillery shell or tank round or ... hits it. Steve can't survive having a skyscraper fall on him (-around- him due to a Luck roll possibly. But not -on- him). Etc.

He's tough. But fundamentally he's human.

 

3= Get at him through innocents, loved ones, DNPCs, and other non-combat means. The Red Skull has shown himself to be an absolute master of this technique; even making the US government Steve's enemy at one point.

 

4= ...and then there's the ever present plot angst of being someone who literally does not belong or fit in the society he presently is in. No family. No surviving friends from his time period. No one who really understands him. A stranger in a strange land ~100 years after his birth.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Captain America Build 350 pts

 

You do realize that this thread is primarily about modeling Cap on 350 points right?

[Ki-rin]

Re: Captain America Build 350 pts

 

You do realize that this thread is primarily about modeling Cap on 350 points right?

...and part of that is modelling him as accurately as possible given the CP budget.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Captain America Build 350 pts

 

So which is it?

 

...Cap has fought the likes of The Hulk, gods like Ares and Hercules, and robots like Ultron to a standstill when armed with The Shield.

 

or

 

Even Steve's shield isn't going to protect him from Knockback if an artillery shell or tank round or ... hits it.

 

You don't think The Incredible "I can lift puny mountain!" Hulk hits with as much force as a Tank round?!?

[JmOz]

Re: Captain America Build 350 pts

 

So which is it?

 

 

 

or

 

 

 

You don't think The Incredible "I can lift puny mountain!" Hulk hits with as much force as a Tank round?!?

 

Actualy his shield provides practicaly unlimedted KB Resistance, even from artilelery or true heavy hitters

[Ki-rin]

Re: Captain America Build 350 pts

 

So which is it?

 

...Cap has fought the likes of The Hulk, gods like Ares and Hercules, and robots like Ultron to a standstill when armed with The Shield.

or

Even Steve's shield isn't going to protect him from Knockback if an artillery shell or tank round or ... hits it.

 

You don't think The Incredible "I can lift puny mountain!" Hulk hits with as much force as a Tank round?!?

The statements are not contradictory.

 

Cap has been Knocked Back considerably without being damaged or hurt from hits taken by The Shield on occasion.

 

Then he usually immediately gets back up and re-engages.

 

As JmOz has correctly noted, if Cap has the opportunity to appropriately prepare for a hit, The Shield has been known to provide practically unlimited Knockback Resistance.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Captain American Build 350 pts

 

Steve could've won easily (he completely outpredicted every move Peter made and had always had counters in place for everything Peter tried. ...And =nothing= was getting through The Shield)' date=' but gave up the chance to pound Peter into paste to try and talk him into seeing the error of his ways.[/quote']

 

It's been a while since I read it, but I'm pretty sure Cap left because there was an explosion in the distances. The Pro Reg and Anti-Reg groups were fighting and he needed to be there.

 

In fact, Spider-man had just finally landed a hit and drawn first blood. The fight was JUST getting interesting. Before that, Cap was dominating and Spider-man was doubting his ability to win ("He's forgotten more about hand to hand than I'll ever know"). Which some may interpret as being one of the real reasons Steve was doing so well. Spidey always does poorly when his confidence is down and he's always held Captain America in extremely high esteem. He psyched himself out in the beginning.

 

This resulted in Peter getting an opportunity to use the custom ranged attack built into his "Iron Spider" armor. The consequence of which was that Cap realized Peter's new costume was a tactical element he had not yet analyzed, which meant either upping the threat level to the point where Peter was likely to be seriously hurt, ...or retreating.

 

He tried ranged attacks and they didn't work. Eventually, Pete used the mechanical spider legs to cut Steve's face. Not a ranged attack so much as some stretching with an HKA at the end. Which, according to Tony Stark, shouldn't have even worked since the Waldo's weren't designed for combat

 

Again, Cap left because there was an explosion in the distance, not because he was afraid to hurt Pete.

 

Since Steve's goal was not hurting Peter, but rather convincing him that he was being misguided/misled, Steve used The Shield as a missile weapon to provide cover and retreated.

...and Peter managed to capture it with his webs.

 

He lost the shield very early in the fight. It was a setup for, if I recall, the first series of strikes that he landed. The fight ended in a draw before he could get the shield back.

 

Only to leave it webbed to a wall for Steve to later find because he did not think he or anyone else had the right to keep The Shield from Steve.

 

He actually protected the shield from some people trying to steal it, then moved it to a place that folks couldn't readily get to so that it would be waiting for Cap when he came back.

 

1= Spidey can't cling to camera's or other small objects (he's dropped/lost cameras he was carrying for instance), so logical consistency says he should not be able to cling to The Shield either.

 

He can, he just doesn't always do it. His ability to cling has increased over the years, to the point that he was clinging his mask to his face to prevent it from being removed and he has been shown sticking to walls or opponents without using his hands or feet. This may have changed again since OMD though...

 

3= NO ONE is ever faking out Cap in HtH. Feints just don't work against Steve.

 

Feint's don't work very well on him because he's a master strategist with incredible reflexes and vast experience. But it's not like he's completely immune to them. Him and Batman traded back and forth for a while, neither being able to land a solid blow on the other. But there have been times when somone did something unexpected and it worked, such as the Spider-man fight above. So in theory, somone could feint him, it's just rather unlikely.

 

Heck, Cap's had trouble with various trained humans and low level supers before. Comes down to the needs of the story.

[Ki-rin]

Re: Captain American Build 350 pts

 

 

He lost the shield very early in the fight. It was a setup for, if I recall, the first series of strikes that he landed. The fight ended in a draw before he could get the shield back.

Not quite. Although I stand partially corrected.

 

First Peter tried going to toe to toe with Steve and was totally outclassed

("I've landed like one blow in the last 10 secs which he blocked with that shield while he's hit me like what, three times? I can't predict his combinations. He doesn't make combinations. It's all just one continuous move for him. He's forgotten more about hand to hand combat than I'm ever going to learn.")

 

Peter then decides to use a different strategy ("I've got to attack from range. Use my superior agility and strength against him".)

 

..and then The Shield becomes a ranged attack problem ("...and then he throws It. The symbol of the whole freaking _country_ comes right at me...") that Peter (barely) dodges for awhile then manages to web to a wall thinking he's out maneuvered Steve...

 

...but Steve has set Peter up; smoothly transitioning from the use of The Shield as a ranged weapon to that of a distraction to allow him to close to HtH again.

 

Steve then lands the by far hardest blow of the entire battle. Peter is dazed. ...and the "Iron Spider" suit attacks Steve almost on its own and scratches Steve's face because he doesn't have The Shield to block with at the moment.

 

Both are doing a Post 12 REC at this point when Steve realizes

a= He's needed elsewhere

b= The "Iron Spider" suit is a big enough problem that he's unprepared for that he's going to have to up the force levels considerably if the fight continues.

 

Steve breaks off the fight with Peter to go help the rescue/escape attempt in progress.

 

He actually protected the shield from some people trying to steal it, then moved it to a place that folks couldn't readily get to so that it would be waiting for Cap when he came back.

Yep. But he did not keep it and turn it over to Tony Stark and S.H.I.E.L.D as he should have either.

 

QED Peter did not think anyone had the right to take or keep Cap's shield from Cap.

[Greywind]

Re: Captain America Build 350 pts

 

...because Cap was one of Peter's heroes...

[Mathew]

Re: Captain America Build 350 pts

 

I was working on upgrading my 250 point Captain America to a 350 point character, but doing it in a little bit different way. Besdies expanding his skills and abilities, I wanted to add in the new toy I got on clearance. The Marvel Transformers Captain America Hummer!

 

So here is 250 point Cap - http://home.comcast.net/~mathewignash/PDFs/CAPTAIN.pdf

 

and here is The Hummer of Liberty - http://home.comcast.net/~mathewignash/PDFs/HUMMER_O.pdf

 

[weis3w3]

Re: Captain America Build 350 pts

 

I'd replace about 25 pts of those martial manoevers with levels, either 3 pt martal arts or 5 pt hth. More versatility.

[Greywind]

Re: Captain America Build 350 pts

 

I'd boost STR and DEX.