6e Characteristics

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6e Characteristics

 

However' date=' to suggest that we can not get it right is simply defeatist. It may be accurate, but it is still defeatist: we can certainly get a damn sight closer to right than we are at present.[/quote']

 

In some cases, I think we can. If the system is as perfectly balanced as it can be at present, why bother with a 6th E? At best it's lateral, and at worst we unbalance things more.

 

Generally, it's tough to weight relative values of differing abilities. However, when one power can do everything the other can for lower cost, or do more for the same cost, it's pretty clear there's an imbalance.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6e Characteristics

 

Main difficulty is that Int' date=' without Per, is often of very marginal utility, and the entire stat might not be worth x1 at that point.[/quote']

 

Actually, maybe this is a case that INT should be removed entirely. COM is gone, and I think that's largely because it has no mechanics unique to itself - it is used to modify other abilities instead. All INT does is provide skill levels and PER roll levels. If we started PER rolls at 11-, and set INT skills at 11- for 2 points (no characteristic roll option), you could buy them up with levels or down with disadvantages, and how smart your character is becomes a matter of SFX. He can be as smart or dumb (as handsome or ugly) as you want with no game effects. If you want mechanics to come with it, you pay for those.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6e Characteristics

 

There's more to game balance than mere points.

 

I don't play Superheroes nearly as much as the rest of you it seems, either.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6e Characteristics

 

There's more to game balance than mere points.

 

I don't play Superheroes nearly as much as the rest of you it seems, either.

 

Agreed. At the same time, if the points have no bearing on game balance, why do we have them?

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6e Characteristics

 

I didn't say they had no meaning, I said there was more to it than Points. This is not a binary situation.

 

Take each Advantage in that list and weigh it on its own, and it will more than likely come out to be a correct value for what it is providing.

 

As more and more Advantages get stacked on, the individual utility starts to come at an inflated price, until the "price" is correct for all of them combined, but the price has managed to far out strip usefulness and utility.

 

Then you have to look at what you're doing, and getting, and how that is actually going to apply the majority of the time and say "is this price fair or inflated or undervalued?"

 

I'm willing to bet 90% of the time, it is fair. But every now and then the price for utility is way overblown. at 25pts per 1D6 in your "average suggested superhero game" you can get a maximum effect of 2D6, and that's not even including any other possible Advantages you might want to add to model something specifc.

 

That's nearly useless in actual Effect, regardless of use and application. At least in my opinion.

[Sean Waters]

Re: 6e Characteristics

 

I didn't say they had no meaning, I said there was more to it than Points. This is not a binary situation.

 

Take each Advantage in that list and weigh it on its own, and it will more than likely come out to be a correct value for what it is providing.

 

As more and more Advantages get stacked on, the individual utility starts to come at an inflated price, until the "price" is correct for all of them combined, but the price has managed to far out strip usefulness and utility.

 

Then you have to look at what you're doing, and getting, and how that is actually going to apply the majority of the time and say "is this price fair or inflated or undervalued?"

 

I'm willing to bet 90% of the time, it is fair. But every now and then the price for utility is way overblown. at 25pts per 1D6 in your "average suggested superhero game" you can get a maximum effect of 2D6, and that's not even including any other possible Advantages you might want to add to model something specifc.

 

That's nearly useless in actual Effect, regardless of use and application. At least in my opinion.

 

There are certainly some things where the comparison of point value is an art, and you can never get it all right because of context. However some things are easier to compare: Force Field and Armour, for example, Ego Attack and advantaged EB, because they are, largely, the same thing - it doesn't matter what playstyle or genre you have, it is just about comparative cost.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6e Characteristics

 

It is not just about comparative cost. Comaprative Cost is merely a place to start.

In many cases we will find it is a good place to stop too. But not always.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6e Characteristics

 

Also remember - all those nifty Advantages work exactly once for the target in question. After that they know what you hit them with, where you are and can react appropriately.

 

That's an aweful lot of points to pay for a surprise attack. . .

[Sean Waters]

Re: 6e Characteristics

 

Actually' date=' maybe this is a case that INT should be removed entirely. COM is gone, and I think that's largely because it has no mechanics unique to itself - it is used to modify other abilities instead. All INT does is provide skill levels and PER roll levels. If we started PER rolls at 11-, and set INT skills at 11- for 2 points (no characteristic roll option), you could buy them up with levels or down with disadvantages, and how smart your character is becomes a matter of SFX. He can be as smart or dumb (as handsome or ugly) as you want with no game effects. If you want mechanics to come with it, you pay for those.[/quote']

 

Having banged on about how I'd ditch INT the main problem I've identified with doing that is that INT is quite useful for adjusting: a Stupid Ray, the effects of alcohol and so on.

 

You can deal with this using skill based intellect because you can apply negative levels to all intellect skills, which has much the same effect.

 

It does make boosting INT a little messy too: you probably ought to be using UBO skill levels rather than Aiding intellect skill levels.

 

Clearly it would be a decision that would require some thinking about, but I don't see any of the potential problems as insurmountable.

[Sean Waters]

Re: 6e Characteristics

 

Also remember - all those nifty Advantages work exactly once for the target in question. After that they know what you hit them with, where you are and can react appropriately.

 

That's an aweful lot of points to pay for a surprise attack. . .

 

Agreed BUT...you can be the other side of a serious barrier and so far away they have no realistic chance of hitting you.

 

I agree that IPE seems almost pointless: all it really does is prevents others homing in on you, but there is nothing to prevent the target simply telling them where you are.

 

I think I might require a PER or INT roll to determine where an IPE attacker is, rather than making it automatic.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6e Characteristics

 

Agreed BUT...you can be the other side of a serious barrier and so far away they have no realistic chance of hitting you.

 

Now you're

1) adding Game conditions

2) Applying application of Other Powers on top of Ego Attack.

 

I fail to see how either one proves the cost of the Power to one direction or another.

 

All you've done is manage to state that a Combination of Powers will prove unbalancing, and in your games at that. The arguement is made of paper.

[Sean Waters]

Re: 6e Characteristics

 

Now you're

1) adding Game conditions

2) Applying application of Other Powers on top of Ego Attack.

 

I fail to see how either one proves the cost of the Power to one direction or another.

 

All you've done is manage to state that a Combination of Powers will prove unbalancing, and in your games at that. The arguement is made of paper.

 

No I'm not, I'm just using the advantages that come with Ego Attack the their best, well advantage. I'm saying that if you do that you don't just get one surprise attack, you also get an opponent who can not effectively counterstrike. If you do not play the character's powers efficiently, you are not going to find the power unbalancing.

 

Actually I don't really know what you mean by 2).

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6e Characteristics

 

There is no aspect of Ego Attack alone, by itself, that let's you attack a target through a wall.

 

You must be able to perceive the Target with a Targeting Sense. Ego Attack does not provide this ability.

 

If you have a character and purchase only Ego Attack you have only one Targeting Sense - Normal Sight - that you can use to attack someone with that Power.

 

Not through a wall. Not from a very great distance. Not from the coffee shop in Tahiti. From Visual Range.

 

To say "but you can use Ego Attack to attack a Target from a great distance through solid walls" means that you have purchase one or more other Powers, most likely some form of Enahanched Sense that allows you to see through the wall in the first place.

 

We can walk all over the book finding "abusive power combinations" - it's a failed arguement.

 

No matter if the cost of Ego Attack is 5 Million points per 1D6 or 1 Point per 1D6 - Attacking through a wall from a great distance is not a default capability of Ego Attack by itself.

 

So - I buy Ego Attack, I have no Enhanced Senses - I must keep my Target within range of my Normal Sight. They go around a corner, I must follow. They hide behind cover, I must find a way around it.

[Trebuchet]

Re: 6e Characteristics

 

So - I buy Ego Attack' date=' I have no Enhanced Senses - I must keep my Target within range of my Normal Sight. They go around a corner, I must follow. They hide behind cover, I must find a way around it.[/quote']I get too close, they pound me into the ground like a tent stake.

 

 

I've never found Ego Attack to be unbalanced as long as I don't permit those cheesy builds.

[ajackson]

Re: 6e Characteristics

 

There is no aspect of Ego Attack alone' date=' by itself, that let's you attack a target through a wall.[/quote']

Ego attack lets you attack through a non-opaque wall, though it's not clear that this is any different from any other AVLD or NND -- while this doesn't always make sense, there's no particular evidence that a wall stops any attack it doesn't provide defense against. If you assume that walls stop AVLDs and NNDs, for consistency they would stop ego attacks as well.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6e Characteristics

 

Ego attack lets you attack through a non-opaque wall' date=' though it's not clear that this is any different from any other AVLD or NND -- while this doesn't always make sense, there's no particular evidence that a wall stops any attack it doesn't provide defense against. If you assume that walls stop AVLDs and NNDs, for consistency they would stop ego attacks as well.[/quote']

 

And.... then they can perceive you.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: 6e Characteristics

 

Ego attack lets you attack through a non-opaque wall' date=' though it's not clear that this is any different from any other AVLD or NND -- while this doesn't always make sense, there's no particular evidence that a wall stops any attack it doesn't provide defense against. If you assume that walls stop AVLDs and NNDs, for consistency they would stop ego attacks as well.[/quote']

 

Are there a lot of non-opaque “walls” in your games? Most of the ones I run into in game and in real life are called “windows” and they are made of glass. Most superpowers would blast right through them. Granted there is “bullet-proof glass” and various magnificent comic book materials, but that’s kind of stretching the matter.

“If you assume that walls stop AVLDs and NNDs, for consistency they would stop ego attacks as well.” Um, isn’t that why “Indirect” is listed as one of the unbalancing Advantages in the “build” to make Ego Attack? So other AVLDs and NNDs would not, in fact, be assumed to have the same default ability to “go through walls”.

Come to think of it though, does the Energy Blast modeled to show that Ego Attack is unbalancing even need “Indirect”? Isn’t the whole being able to attack what you can see, despite physical barriers, part of the “Line of Site” Advantage?

[ajackson]

Re: 6e Characteristics

 

Are there a lot of non-opaque “walls” in your games?

Force wall. Also, enhanced senses can make any wall effectively non-opaque.

“If you assume that walls stop AVLDs and NNDs' date=' for consistency they would stop ego attacks as well.” Um, isn’t that why “Indirect” is listed as one of the unbalancing Advantages in the “build” to make Ego Attack?[/quote']

Yeah, but I'm not convinced that Ego Attack has the indirect advantage; if a vehicle or base provides mental defense, it generally protects its contents as well, and an indirect attack bypasses such defenses.

Come to think of it though' date=' does the Energy Blast modeled to show that Ego Attack is unbalancing even need “Indirect”? Isn’t the whole being able to attack what you can see, despite physical barriers, part of the “Line of Site” Advantage?[/quote']

No. Line of sight just means it has no maximum range or range penalty.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6e Characteristics

 

You should reread Line Of Sight under Mental Powers (5ER p116).

 

If you can perceive the Target with a Targeting Sense you can use a Line Of Sight Attack.

 

In English: If you can see a Target through a window with your Normal Sight (a Targeting Sense) you can use Ego Attack.

 

You do not need Indirect on a build simulating Ego Attack.

[ajackson]

Re: 6e Characteristics

 

You do not need Indirect on a build simulating Ego Attack.

Actually, you still do, because there's no other way to buy 'line of sight'.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6e Characteristics

 

Also incorrect. 5ER p266 - the Power in question need only be Ranged.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: 6e Characteristics

 

Force wall. Also' date=' enhanced senses can make any wall effectively non-opaque.[/quote']

Force Wall is a Power. Just like Force Field, or Armor, or any other Defensive Power that a AVLD or NND can go through. That does not enforce the “it is unbalancing because you can use it through ‘non-opaque’ walls” argument.

 

Enhanced Senses are Powers. “If I buy another power too, it makes my first power even better, so the first power is obviously unbalancing” is, also, not a valid argument.

 

Yeah' date=' but I'm not convinced that Ego Attack has the indirect advantage; if a vehicle or base provides mental defense, it generally protects its contents as well, and an indirect attack bypasses such defenses.[/quote']

Ego Attack does bypass those defenses, as long as you can see the target. What exactly was your point?

 

No. Line of sight just means it has no maximum range or range penalty.

Simply wrong. Check out 5ER page 116-117 for the definition of Line of Sight. It is true that Line of Sight powers do not suffer from the traditional Range Modifiers of other Ranged abilities, but it encompasses much more than that

[bigbywolfe]

Re: 6e Characteristics

 

I see G-A beat me to the punch with his answers, but I have to address this:

Actually' date=' you still do, because there's no other way to buy 'line of sight'.[/quote']

Why, oh why, are you trying to "build" 'line of sight'? It is one of the four basic "Ranges" built into the system. (The others are 'Self-Only' 'No Range/HtH' and 'Standard Range', see page 101). There is an Advantage designed and priced to turn any "Standard Ranged" (often just called "Ranged") Power into a "Line of Sight" Power. What are you trying to "build"?

 

EDIT: I mis-read, I thought you said "build" Line of Site, not "Buy" Line of Site. My mistake. However, you are still wrong. See page 226 under "Range Advantages". Line of Sight, +1/2, with the "Caution Sign" symbol.

[Trebuchet]

Re: 6e Characteristics

 

“If you assume that walls stop AVLDs and NNDs' date=' for consistency they would stop ego attacks as well.” Um, isn’t that why “Indirect” is listed as one of the unbalancing Advantages in the “build” to make Ego Attack? So other AVLDs and NNDs would not, in fact, be assumed to have the same default ability to “go through walls”.[/quote']I totally concur. Since NND and AVLD attacks do no BODY damage by default, I would say that by default they would not penetrate a wall. If the attack has the "Does BODY" adder, then it probably can poke a physical hole in the wall and any opacity becomes moot.

[Sean Waters]

Re: 6e Characteristics

 

There is no aspect of Ego Attack alone, by itself, that let's you attack a target through a wall.

 

You must be able to perceive the Target with a Targeting Sense. Ego Attack does not provide this ability.

 

If you have a character and purchase only Ego Attack you have only one Targeting Sense - Normal Sight - that you can use to attack someone with that Power.

 

Not through a wall. Not from a very great distance. Not from the coffee shop in Tahiti. From Visual Range.

 

To say "but you can use Ego Attack to attack a Target from a great distance through solid walls" means that you have purchase one or more other Powers, most likely some form of Enahanched Sense that allows you to see through the wall in the first place.

 

We can walk all over the book finding "abusive power combinations" - it's a failed arguement.

 

No matter if the cost of Ego Attack is 5 Million points per 1D6 or 1 Point per 1D6 - Attacking through a wall from a great distance is not a default capability of Ego Attack by itself.

 

So - I buy Ego Attack, I have no Enhanced Senses - I must keep my Target within range of my Normal Sight. They go around a corner, I must follow. They hide behind cover, I must find a way around it.

 

 

Ego Attack is a mental power. If you look at page 116 of 5ER it specifically says that mental powers are not stopped by conventional barriers. It is not 'Ego Attack' that is inherently ndirect, it is all mental powers, but they include Ego Attack. It even gives an example of someone with NRay and Ego Attack being able to attack a target through a wall, so long as he can establish LOS.

 

NND/AVLD (on its own) is definitely stopped by barriers.

 

Almost all the mentalists I build have some sort of enhanced sense to allow them to take advantage of this, even if it is only adding 'targeting' to telepathy. Silly not to (unless you get hung up on concept, in which case silly not to take a 'not indirect' limitaion on the power).