6e Characteristics

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6e Characteristics

 

Now you're

1) adding Game conditions

2) Applying application of Other Powers on top of Ego Attack.

 

I fail to see how either one proves the cost of the Power to one direction or another.

 

All you've done is manage to state that a Combination of Powers will prove unbalancing, and in your games at that. The arguement is made of paper.

 

Then let's assume that Ego Attack is perfectly balanced at 10 points per d6 in your game. Why would it be less balanced to have an attack that has a LOS range, is invisible to two sense groups (leaving only Mental), targets ECV vs ECV, is Indirect such that it can pass through walls and is defended against by Power Defense? In other words, if Ego Attack is balanced at 10 points per 1d6, what makes an attack that has all of the same characteristics, with the sole exception that it is resisted by power defense rather than ego defense, merit a cost in the 20 - 25 per 1d6 range?

 

Something is mispriced.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6e Characteristics

 

I contest the idea that Ego Attack has any Indirect properties at all.

 

What does Indirect do?

1) Bypass defenses - not barriers - defenses.

2) Alter the Origin Point of the Power, without altering perception of who originated it.

 

Ego Attack goes right through windows and walls because none of them have any Mental Defense. Otherwise Mental Defense Force Wall would be utterly pointless. And since you can purchase a MD Force Wall that means Ego Attack must pass through it, not bypass it.

 

So, you are not bypassing defenses, you simply aren't encountering any. You have not moved the origin point - it clearly comes from the Attacker. For those able to perceive it.

 

Ego Attack Based Off Of Energy Blast:

AVLD - versus Mental Defense (barriers do not normally have Mental Defense, and are "transparent" to Mental Attacks by default) +1 1/2

ECV to ECV - I've never been convinced this is more than a +0 Limitation, but hey, I'll be nice and call it +1/4

Line Of Sight - No Range Penalties, Perceive With Targeting Sense = Attack +1/2

Invisible Power Effects - 2 Sense Groups +1/2

 

Total: +2 3/4.

 

Best Case Scenario - I'll concede that it costs 18.75 Points/1D6.

I won't go into the Endurance Issue because if you want to "cost it correctly" you want to pay the actual Endurance of the Active Points involved.

 

Here's where the pricing goes wrong In My Opinion (should I bold that?)-

 

Individual Advantages are priced correctly on an individual basis. Take one, or even two, and they tend to remain fairly priced for the utility you're going to get in Actual Play.

 

Once you reach above the +2 Range things tend to go badly. The number of Dice you can use for Effect becomes so reduced in the "average suggested superhero game" as to be virtually useless. You're better off putting points into straight attacks.

 

At even 3D6 (20pt/D6) with 0 Defenses you're getting an average of 12 Stun through.

A 12D6 Energy Blast will punch through "average defenses of 20" and do 22 Stun on average.

It seems the combination and lumping of Advantages has worked against you, they are now costing you more than they are providing in both capability and utility - as a whole.

 

OK, so where's the breakdown?

First - several of those Advantages do not deal directly with Damage.

Remove IPE (useful, but has nothing to do with hurting, you can gain some tactical advantages but only if the GM allows them - and as many have you pointed out, you don't). In the bucket.

 

Second - Line Of Sight. Looks like it might affect Damage, after all you're more likely to hit. But to get more Stun through it's likely more effective to buy Penalty Skill Levels, especially since most of the time you're with 'combat ranges' of under 32 Inches anyways. In the bucket.

 

ECV to ECV - direct combat influence. Leave it in.

 

AVLD - direct combat influence, especially since we're trading to a rare defense. Leave it in.

 

That leave us with a total +1 3/4 Advantages. Cost of 13.75 Points per 1D6.

 

Absolute worst case scenario? Ego Attack should be 15 Points/D6. not 20, and most absolutely not 25.

 

But then, I also believe AVLD is way way over priced. Should be +1 - why would I take a +1 1/2 Advantage on the chances I get 'some' damage through, chances are I lowered my Dice to low I can't bypass anything that would have the defense to begin with or again would be better off with a straight attack. I'd rather take NND and deal with the all or nothing. So, +1 for AVLD.

 

That brings the cost down to 11.25.

 

Call it 10/1D6.

 

There, that's my reasoning.

Take it, leave it, burn it, burn me. I don't care.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6e Characteristics

 

Oh, and for the record - I don't believe any of the Mental Powers should provide Mental Awareness for free either. Especially Ego Attack. So there's that as well.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6e Characteristics

 

Then let's assume that Ego Attack is perfectly balanced at 10 points per d6 in your game. Why would it be less balanced to have an attack that has a LOS range, is invisible to two sense groups (leaving only Mental), targets ECV vs ECV, is Indirect such that it can pass through walls and is defended against by Power Defense? In other words, if Ego Attack is balanced at 10 points per 1d6, what makes an attack that has all of the same characteristics, with the sole exception that it is resisted by power defense rather than ego defense, merit a cost in the 20 - 25 per 1d6 range?

 

Something is mispriced.

 

I answered this above - but in the middle of everything.

 

What's mispriced is that the more Advantages you add to a Power the further drop you see in Utility to Cost ratio.

 

Everyone on the boards has a sort of unspoken agreement to use 60 Active Points as a Benchmark to compare the many various builds we come up with.

 

Once you reach over 20 Points / D6 Of Effect you Utility has dropped so far as to be nearly effectively useless. Only inherently Cumulative Powers are truly useful at low dice (Transform. Drain.)

 

After that threshold almost everything gives you less in utility than you theoretically paid for. I have a serious problem with that - and I don't have a perfect answer either.

 

---

 

Furthermore, this just occurred to me - the only reason anyone questions Ego Attack is because it can have a Theoretical Build off of another Power.

 

I have yet to see anyone state that Telepathy, Mind Scan, Mind Control, or Mental Illusions also needs to be priced at 20-25 Points/D6.

 

How useless is a 2D6 Mind Control in a 60 Active Point Game with anyone who has an EGO over 1. Completely.

Why is 1D6 Ego Attack 'priced right'? Just because you can build it with something else? Hogwash.

[Trebuchet]

Re: 6e Characteristics

 

Personally I've never really felt there was any need for a separate Ego Attack in Hero anyway. I always felt it should just be an Energy Blast with appropriate Advantages and/or Limitations.

 

I agree with Ego Blast preferably not conferring Mental Awareness. Just because the wizard is using a Multipower wand with Ego Blast doesn't mean he should know someone nearby is using Telepathy.

[ajackson]

Re: 6e Characteristics

 

What's mispriced is that the more Advantages you add to a Power the further drop you see in Utility to Cost ratio.

Actually, if they're the right sort of advantages, the utility to cost ratio improves. 6d6 NND vs 12d6 EB is probably a push; 4d6 NND AoE is way better than 6d6 AoE normal. The problem is that a number of advantages have effects that really fall outside of the normal power calculation. For example, area effect (1 hex) is really the equivalent of an OCV bonus -- but AE counts against active point limits, and OCV doesn't.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6e Characteristics

 

Actually' date=' if they're the right sort of advantages, the utility to cost ratio improves. 6d6 NND vs 12d6 EB is probably a push; 4d6 NND AoE is way better than 6d6 AoE normal. The problem is that a number of advantages have effects that really fall outside of the normal power calculation. For example, area effect (1 hex) is really the equivalent of an OCV bonus -- but AE counts against active point limits, and OCV doesn't.[/quote']

 

As the REST of my post goes on to state - once you escalate over 20 Points/1D6 (on average greater than a +2 Advantage, pushing towards +4) the Utility Drops.

 

Below that the utility increases.

 

Please refer to my ENTIRE POST next time - were I able to sum up my feelings in a single sentence I would, but it required more than that and all sentences should be taken together.

 

Thank you.

 

(I will add that Major Transform tends to be an Exception due to the inherently Cumulative Effect of Transforms, Killing Attacks are iffy at best with anything more than +1 in Advantages.)

[ajackson]

Re: 6e Characteristics

 

As the REST of my post goes on to state - once you escalate over 20 Points/1D6 (on average greater than a +2 Advantage' date=' pushing towards +4) the Utility Drops.[/quote']

Okay, 2d6 EB, NND (+1) autofire 20 shots (+1), zero END (+1), area effect: radius (+1), x16 radius (+1) (strangely enough, 64 hex radius): 30 points per die, with a reasonable OCV I can hit my own hex five times and the remaining fifteen shots won't scatter outside of the area of effect so I can pretty reliably do 40d6 NND to everyone on the map who isn't immune to my particular NND.

 

What drops to useless is powers where people reliably have a non-zero defense against the power.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: 6e Characteristics

 

I agree with Ego Blast preferably not conferring Mental Awareness. Just because the wizard is using a Multipower wand with Ego Blast doesn't mean he should know someone nearby is using Telepathy.

 

This brings up an intriguing question: most mages in fiction have the ability to detect the presence of magic or other mages, usually passively (as in "sniff, sniff -- I smell magic" when you may not be especially looking for magic). Again, this is probably not automatic but is extremely common. There is also the fact that pre-mages (untrained people with magic affinity) can also detect magic in some settings, but don't necessarily know what it is. How would you do a Magical Awareness power in 6e?

[ajackson]

Re: 6e Characteristics

 

How would you do a Magical Awareness power in 6e?

Presumably the same way as 5e -- detect with the Sense modifier.

[Klaus Mogensen]

Re: 6e Characteristics

 

My suggestion for organising the stats (with suggested costs):

 

Primary Characteristics

All cost 1 point, have a base of 10, and give a bonus of CHA/5.

(Ideally, this bonus should always round the same way, unlike now when you round STR down to determine damage die, but round all other characterictics off to determine skill/characteristic rolls.)

STR (physical force)

CON (physical toughness)

DEX (physical suppleness)

PRE (mental force)

EGO (mental toughness)

INT (mental suppleness)

 

 

Variable Characteristics

These characteristics can go down due to damage or exhaustion and are recovered according to the REC characteristic, which for that reason is grouped with these.

BODY base 10, cost 1

STUN base 20, cost 1

END base 20, cost ½

REC base 4, cost 2

 

Combat Characteristics

SPD base 2, cost 10

PD base 2, cost 1½

ED base 2, cost 1½

OCV base 3, cost 3

DCV base 3, cost 3

OECV base 3, cost 2

DECV base 3, cost 2

Note1: I have increased the cost of PD and ED because I think they are too cheap now compared to buying STUN. Alternatively, reduce the cost of STUN.

Note 2: Perhaps all of these should be given a base of 2 for streamlining.

 

Skill Levels

1 point: +1 to a single skill or maneuver

2 points: +1 to three skills or maneuvers

3 points: +1 to a broad group of skills and maneuvers, e.g. all INT skills or all Ranged combat

5 points: +1 to all skills or all combat

Note: combat levels of 2 points or more can be exchanged for damage at a rate of +1 DC for 4 levels (compare +1d6, 0 END, which costs 7½ points).

 

- Klaus

[Sean Waters]

Re: 6e Characteristics

 

I contest the idea that Ego Attack has any Indirect properties at all.

 

What does Indirect do?

1) Bypass defenses - not barriers - defenses.

2) Alter the Origin Point of the Power, without altering perception of who originated it.

 

.........

 

 

It doesn't though - indirect bypasses barriers, that is what the power modifier description says. It doesn't bypass personal defences, but it does bypass 'barrier defences' such as force wall and entangle walls unless they include mental defence (in which case you can 'shoot through' after subtracting the mental defence).

 

Indirect could be better defined, but it bypasses barriers and can alter the point of origin of the power.

 

Mental powers always have the same point of origin but all bypass barriers (unless they have mental defence), which is exactly what 'indirect' does.

 

Now I accept that may be more of a logical consequence of exotic attacks only interacting with exotic defences, but the same does not apply to a ranged drain: An Ego atatck can shoot straight through a PE/ED force field - and so can a ranged drain - but an Ego attack can also shot straight through a wall, and a ranged drain can not.

 

Another point worth mentioning is that you do NOT need to be able to draw LOS to hit with a mental attack. If I think there is someone on the other side of the door, and i unleash an Ego Attack I can stills ee them even if I have no targeting senses that work through the door. You have to declare your aim point, and you will more than likely miss, but you can do it, so mental powers are not simply LOS based in terms of what they can target (although they are, in effect, in terms of range).

[Peregrine]

Re: 6e Characteristics

 

Assuming that the Body/Mind/Spirit distinction (from Alteration Powers) will remain in 6e, how would you organize the Characteristics around that?

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6e Characteristics

 

It doesn't though - indirect bypasses barriers, that is what the power modifier description says. It doesn't bypass personal defences, but it does bypass 'barrier defences' such as force wall and entangle walls unless they include mental defence (in which case you can 'shoot through' after subtracting the mental defence).

 

Indirect could be better defined, but it bypasses barriers and can alter the point of origin of the power.

 

Mental powers always have the same point of origin but all bypass barriers (unless they have mental defence), which is exactly what 'indirect' does.

 

Now I accept that may be more of a logical consequence of exotic attacks only interacting with exotic defences, but the same does not apply to a ranged drain: An Ego atatck can shoot straight through a PE/ED force field - and so can a ranged drain - but an Ego attack can also shot straight through a wall, and a ranged drain can not.

 

Another point worth mentioning is that you do NOT need to be able to draw LOS to hit with a mental attack. If I think there is someone on the other side of the door, and i unleash an Ego Attack I can stills ee them even if I have no targeting senses that work through the door. You have to declare your aim point, and you will more than likely miss, but you can do it, so mental powers are not simply LOS based in terms of what they can target (although they are, in effect, in terms of range).

 

If the purpose of bypassing a barrier is to bypass the defense of the barrier - but mental powers can bypass barriers unless that barrier has mental defense.

 

Wait... the conversation stopped making sense.

 

There's no point in bypassing a barrier if you still have to overcome the barriers defense. None At All.

 

 

Line Of Sight does not need Indirect to operate. I contend no Mental Power has Indirect on it - it may look like Indirect but as long as you must over come the defenses, you might as well not have bypassed the barrier in the first place.

 

AND YES - you DO have to draw Line Of Sight to target with a Mental Attack - IT SAYS SO IN THE BOOK.

 

It even uses "a tiny speck on the horizon does not count as LOS" for Mental Attacks. They do not have magical properties that let you use them without seeign a target. I don't know how it could possibly be made any clearer in the book that you must be able to Target with a Targeting Sense to Attack with a Mental Power.

 

The GM may allow you to Hail Mary an Ego Attack around a corner, but that is not RAW. That's a House Rule.

 

This conversation has now become tedious. I'm going away. Go do whatever you believe will work in your games.

[Sean Waters]

Re: 6e Characteristics

 

If the purpose of bypassing a barrier is to bypass the defense of the barrier - but mental powers can bypass barriers unless that barrier has mental defense.

 

Wait... the conversation stopped making sense.

 

There's no point in bypassing a barrier if you still have to overcome the barriers defense. None At All.

 

 

Line Of Sight does not need Indirect to operate. I contend no Mental Power has Indirect on it - it may look like Indirect but as long as you must over come the defenses, you might as well not have bypassed the barrier in the first place.

 

AND YES - you DO have to draw Line Of Sight to target with a Mental Attack - IT SAYS SO IN THE BOOK.

 

It even uses "a tiny speck on the horizon does not count as LOS" for Mental Attacks. They do not have magical properties that let you use them without seeign a target. I don't know how it could possibly be made any clearer in the book that you must be able to Target with a Targeting Sense to Attack with a Mental Power.

 

The GM may allow you to Hail Mary an Ego Attack around a corner, but that is not RAW. That's a House Rule.

 

This conversation has now become tedious. I'm going away. Go do whatever you believe will work in your games.

 

 

First off indirect is defined as bypassing barriers, and that is what mental powers do (for the vast majority of barriers, like cars, buildings, vault doors etc). You can even target through opaque barriers, and that is not a house rule, that is in the book IIRC, but I'm at work and can not check. It may (or may not) be an optional rule but it is there.

 

I'll give you chapter and verse on it all when I get home.

 

I did give you chapter and verse on on the 'mental powers are indirect' thing: p116 I think. it uses the same language, in the same way as 'indirect'.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6e Characteristics

 

Either way - if you have to overcome a barriers defenses you have not bypassed it.

 

That's common sense.

 

 

And yeah I'm reading p116 now. It specifically says that barriers don't stop Mental Powers - AS LONG AS YOU CAN ESTABLISH LINE OF SIGHT. It says you can Target through walls, not ignore the walls defenses. That's why I say it how no Indirect Properties.

 

You can target a gun through a wall with N-Ray Perception too. You just have to overcome the walls Physical Defense.

 

 

EDIT: and I stand corrected, p117 does say you can target around a corner without LOS. It suffers the same penalties as pretty much any attack made blind.

[Sean Waters]

Re: 6e Characteristics

 

Either way - if you have to overcome a barriers defenses you have not bypassed it.

 

That's common sense.

 

 

And yeah I'm reading p116 now. It specifically says that barriers don't stop Mental Powers - AS LONG AS YOU CAN ESTABLISH LINE OF SIGHT. It says you can Target through walls, not ignore the walls defenses. That's why I say it how no Indirect Properties.

 

You can target a gun through a wall with N-Ray Perception too. You just have to overcome the walls Physical Defense.

 

 

EDIT: and I stand corrected, p117 does say you can target around a corner without LOS. It suffers the same penalties as pretty much any attack made blind.

 

 

OK, I have not got your point: what I'm saying is that if you have NRay and Ego Attack (or just blindfire your Ego Attack and hit) and attack someone the other side of a 10 DEF wall that the DEF of the wall has no effect whatsoever on the damage of the attack that hits the target*. I think the phrase it uses is 'doesn't stop', which I have taken to mean 'has no effect upon', and you have taken a different view.

 

If you have a Colt Python and NRay and try the same thing, the bullet has to overcome the defences of the wall to get to the target, and even if it manages that then the damage is reduced by the DEF of the wall.

 

However if you had an indirect Colt Python and NRay you could ignore the wall for both targeting and damage purposes. That is what I think Ego Attack (and all mental powers) does.

 

 

 

 

 

*UNLESS the wall has mental defence, which almost nothing does, so is not a generally relevant consideration: it simply makes it a (slightly) limited form of indirect, but still indirect.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6e Characteristics

 

I don't know how to explain the contradiction in your own arguement. But I'm going to try.

 

You encounter a Wall. You have X-Ray Vision and see your target.

 

You have a choice:

Your Brain Lance (Ego Attack) or your Colt Python (Gun).

You may TARGET with BOTH ATTACKS

 

Scenario A:

The wall has no Mental Defenses. It has Physical Defenses. It is made of brick.

You use your Brain Lance, you suffer no Ranged Penalties, you encounter no Defenses.

 

Scenario B:

The wall has no Physical Defenses. It has Mental Defenses. It is made of magic.

You use your Colt Python, you suffer Ranged Penalties, you encounter no Defenses.

 

You have Not placed Indirect on your Colt Python. It can pass through both walls, one it has encountered resistence (Defenses). One it has not (No Defenses).

 

Your Ego Attack is acting in the EXACT SAME MANNER.

 

There is no Idirect Property, you are using an Enhanced Perception (N-Ray) to establish Line Of Sight with a Targeting Sense and Attacking a Target through a Barrier. One of which has no defenses letting your attack through unhindered, one has defenses thus lowering your Attacks effectiveness.

 

If you had Indirect on EITHER Power you could ignore (Bypass) the Defenses.

 

If that's not clear, it never will be.

 

I have officially reached my Give A Sh-- limit on the topic, and in fact surpased it by a good 5 posts. Have a good game.

[Sean Waters]

Re: 6e Characteristics

 

I don't know how to explain the contradiction in your own arguement. But I'm going to try.

 

You encounter a Wall. You have X-Ray Vision and see your target.

 

You have a choice:

Your Brain Lance (Ego Attack) or your Colt Python (Gun).

You may TARGET with BOTH ATTACKS

 

Scenario A:

The wall has no Mental Defenses. It has Physical Defenses. It is made of brick.

You use your Brain Lance, you suffer no Ranged Penalties, you encounter no Defenses.

 

Scenario B:

The wall has no Physical Defenses. It has Mental Defenses. It is made of magic.

You use your Colt Python, you suffer Ranged Penalties, you encounter no Defenses.

 

You have Not placed Indirect on your Colt Python. It can pass through both walls, one it has encountered resistence (Defenses). One it has not (No Defenses).

 

Your Ego Attack is acting in the EXACT SAME MANNER.

 

There is no Idirect Property, you are using an Enhanced Perception (N-Ray) to establish Line Of Sight with a Targeting Sense and Attacking a Target through a Barrier. One of which has no defenses letting your attack through unhindered, one has defenses thus lowering your Attacks effectiveness.

 

If you had Indirect on EITHER Power you could ignore (Bypass) the Defenses.

 

If that's not clear, it never will be.

 

I have officially reached my Give A Sh-- limit on the topic, and in fact surpased it by a good 5 posts. Have a good game.

 

 

I do understand what you are saying, I just don't agree.

 

You are saying (if I have this right) it is not indirect that allows an ego attack to work unimpeded through a wall it is the fact that walls and ego attacks do not interact; walls have no effect on ego attacks, so ego attacks ignore them, just as a 'mental defence wall' would be ignored by a physical attack. Mental defences do not have 'indirect' because they can not bypass mental barriers.

 

I make two points here, one theoretical, one practical:

 

1. The same does not apply to a ranged DEX drain against a wall - the wall has no power defence and no DEX - it does not interact with the attack - but it still stops it. Ditto NND and AVLD attacks, even ones where the defence is mental defence. If the principle you espouse was sound, these other attacks would ignore walls too. Mental powers work differently because of their special rules not because of an extension of the general rules of the game.

 

2. Physical barriers are so common, whilst mental barriers are so uncommon that the ability to ignore the first is a significant advantage (even if we do not label it 'indirect') whereas the ability to ignore the second is all but meaningless unless the attack actually is one that was stopped by mental defence. In practice, even if not in theory, being able to ignore intervening physical barriers - especially when your target won't be able to ignore them - is a massive advantage.

 

We may have to agree to disagree.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6e Characteristics

 

I contest the idea that Ego Attack has any Indirect properties at all.

 

What does Indirect do?

1) Bypass defenses - not barriers - defenses.

2) Alter the Origin Point of the Power, without altering perception of who originated it.

 

I'm inclined to agree. However, I note that the same logic would imply that ranged adjustment powers, Transforms and AVLD Power Defense powers should also pass through solid objects, as should Hearing Flash Defense attacks. Windows and walls lack these defenses as well. Sight flash defense attacks should also go through the window.

 

Ego Attack Based Off Of Energy Blast:

AVLD - versus Mental Defense (barriers do not normally have Mental Defense, and are "transparent" to Mental Attacks by default) +1 1/2

ECV to ECV - I've never been convinced this is more than a +0 Limitation, but hey, I'll be nice and call it +1/4

 

+0 works for me.

 

Line Of Sight - No Range Penalties, Perceive With Targeting Sense = Attack +1/2

Invisible Power Effects - 2 Sense Groups +1/2

 

1 Targeting and 1 non-targeting means +3/4, so

 

Total: +2 3/4.[/quote

 

Best Case Scenario - I'll concede that it costs 18.75 Points/1D6.

I won't go into the Endurance Issue because if you want to "cost it correctly" you want to pay the actual Endurance of the Active Points involved.

 

No, I want the same functionality as an Ego Attack, and that's 1 END per 1d6, so I need 1/2 END (+1/4), so total advantages of +3 and a cost of 20 per 1d6.

 

Individual Advantages are priced correctly on an individual basis. Take one, or even two, and they tend to remain fairly priced for the utility you're going to get in Actual Play.

 

Once you reach above the +2 Range things tend to go badly. The number of Dice you can use for Effect becomes so reduced in the "average suggested superhero game" as to be virtually useless. You're better off putting points into straight attacks.

 

It's funny that the normal argument I hear is that advantage stacking (applying a lot of different advantages, commonly with a rule of thumb of more than +2 or so) is overpowered. Getting Personal Immunity on the "build Ego Attack from EB" construct costs 1.25 points per d6, but immunity to the lower priced EGO attack costs 2.5 points per 1d6.

 

At even 3D6 (20pt/D6) with 0 Defenses you're getting an average of 12 Stun through.

A 12D6 Energy Blast will punch through "average defenses of 20" and do 22 Stun on average.

 

Aren't you arguing that each individual advantage is appropriately priced? An AVLD Mental Defense blast costs 12.5 points for 1d6, so I would get, say, 5d6-1 for 60 AP. That will average 16.5 STUN compared to the 22 STUN your Energy Blast inflicts, and compared to the 10.5 that the Ego Attack Equivalent will inflict. An NND will do 21 instead of 22.

 

Assuming AVLD is appropriately priced, in and of itself, the cost of making it an effective sniper weapon (Invisible and LOS range) and dropping its END down to a more manageable level, is 6 STUN on average. Let's extrapolate on your "typical target" and give him, say, 50 STUN. It will take 3 shots of the EB, 3 to 4 shots of the AVLD or 5 shots of the Ego Attack to reduce him to 0 STUN. Is needing 2 more shots a reasonable price to pay for being able to avoid counterattack from others and be far enough away to impose extreme range modifiers on them and my target?

 

OK, so where's the breakdown?

First - several of those Advantages do not deal directly with Damage.

Remove IPE (useful, but has nothing to do with hurting, you can gain some tactical advantages but only if the GM allows them - and as many have you pointed out, you don't). In the bucket.

 

Second - Line Of Sight. Looks like it might affect Damage, after all you're more likely to hit. But to get more Stun through it's likely more effective to buy Penalty Skill Levels, especially since most of the time you're with 'combat ranges' of under 32 Inches anyways. In the bucket.

 

ECV to ECV - direct combat influence. Leave it in.

 

AVLD - direct combat influence, especially since we're trading to a rare defense. Leave it in.

 

That leave us with a total +1 3/4 Advantages. Cost of 13.75 Points per 1D6.

 

Absolute worst case scenario? Ego Attack should be 15 Points/D6. not 20, and most absolutely not 25.

 

Then shouldn't a DazzleBurst (same as Ego Attack, but it acts against Flash Defense) or Enervator Beam (acts against power defense) also get a reduced cost comparable to an Ego Attack?

 

Based on your arguments above, IPE and LoS Range should cost nothing. I think your argument makes a strong case for using DC limits (where only advantages directly affecting damage would be counted) instead of AP limits. If a 12d6 EB is the limit, a 4 1/2d6 AVLD would also be the limit. And either one could have LoS Range and IPE added, at the usual cost but without violating the DC cap. That might also mean I could have an AoE attack that does more than half the maximum DC's for a single target attack.

 

But then' date=' I also believe AVLD is way way over priced. Should be +1 - why would I take a +1 1/2 Advantage on the chances I get 'some' damage through, chances are I lowered my Dice to low I can't bypass anything that would have the defense to begin with or again would be better off with a straight attack. I'd rather take NND and deal with the all or nothing. So, +1 for AVLD.[/quote]

 

I'm inclined to agree that AVLD is overpriced. I question whether IPE might also be overpriced - maybe a fully IPE attack is worth +1/2, but +1?? Defensive and movement powers add even less utility for being imperceptible.

 

Oh' date=' and for the record - I don't believe any of the Mental Powers should provide Mental Awareness for free either. Especially Ego Attack. So there's that as well.[/quote']

 

I agree 100% - and further, there is no way a character should save 12 points on each of five 60 AP mental powers for the cost of losing a 3 point Sense. Hopefully, the link between Mental Awareness and other mental powers will disappear in 6e.

 

In fairness, we have not applied a limitation to the AVLD Ego Attack build for "only affects one class of minds". Does that also apply to AVLD's that affect mental defenses, or is it a limitation (probably not a -1 limitation, but still potentially a limitation) on an Ego Attack?

 

I answered this above - but in the middle of everything.

 

What's mispriced is that the more Advantages you add to a Power the further drop you see in Utility to Cost ratio.

 

Everyone on the boards has a sort of unspoken agreement to use 60 Active Points as a Benchmark to compare the many various builds we come up with.

 

Once you reach over 20 Points / D6 Of Effect you Utility has dropped so far as to be nearly effectively useless. Only inherently Cumulative Powers are truly useful at low dice (Transform. Drain.)

 

Ego Attack is inherently cumulative - it reduces your STUN every time. Low dice Transforms and Drains are as useless against targets with Power Defense as low dice Ego Attacks are against targets with Mental Defense. At least 10 points' STUN from an Ego Attack will help KO a target my teammates are attacking. 10 points of Transform does nothing to help.

 

As I said above, and as your comments clarify, I think that this speaks to the manner in which strict AP limits make many interesting constructs impractical.

 

I have yet to see anyone state that Telepathy, Mind Scan, Mind Control, or Mental Illusions also needs to be priced at 20-25 Points/D6.

 

How useless is a 2D6 Mind Control in a 60 Active Point Game with anyone who has an EGO over 1. Completely.

Why is 1D6 Ego Attack 'priced right'? Just because you can build it with something else? Hogwash.

 

The other mental powers have a threshold of effect making them much more difficult to compare. How useful is 2d6 of Mind Control at all? I would say virtually useless. But 1d6 Ego Attack will trickle a bit of STUN through every time.

 

Another thing which occurs from this analysis. Between 4e and 5e, the suggested defense levels dropped quite a bit. Circumvention of PD and ED (the function of AVLD and NND) is worth a lot more against targets with high defenses. If we bump that 20 DEF example you use to 25 defenses or 30 (more typical of 4e builds and averages), we get an EB that does 17 or 12, while the NND, AVLD and Ego Attack AVLD still do 21, 16.5 and 10.5. Maybe, with reduced defense to DC levels, the cost of advantages that circumvent PD and ED should have been reduced.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: 6e Characteristics

 

Man! You go away for a few days and the thread gets *WAY* off topic. These are the kinds of arguments I especially wanted to avoid in this thread - things that have nothing to do with 6e Characteristics, things that we already argued about at length in the 6e threads, and things we've argued about many times even prior to that.

 

Sean brings up the idea of removing INT as a characteristic, an idea so utterly preposterous that it might actually work. INT could be replaced by not just Enhanced PER and Skill Levels, but also Skill Enhancers, which could be embellished a bit - add more levels/detail/granularity to the Skill Enhancers. There are many ways to do this, for example, not just "Scientist" for -1 on the cost of all Sciences, but "Chemist" for -1 on the cost of all Chemistry-related sciences.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: 6e Characteristics

 

Assuming that the Body/Mind/Spirit distinction (from Alteration Powers) will remain in 6e' date=' how would you organize the Characteristics around that?[/quote']

I wouldn't. Transform doesn't really have much to do with characteristics.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6e Characteristics

 

Man! You go away for a few days and the thread gets *WAY* off topic.

 

We don't have Thread Drift so much as Thread Migration.

 

As for Characteristics, we've got just as many as before, only now we can but them all up and down separately to fit things juuuusst right.

[Vondy]

Re: 6e Characteristics

 

There's more to game balance than mere points.

 

I don't play Superheroes nearly as much as the rest of you it seems, either.

 

I don't play supers at all, anymore. Haven't in five years. I've gone strictly heroic, and generally "mundane" (historical, modern, or genres where the fantastical elements are very subtle). I think this may be why I have a very different view of game balance than a lot of board members. And why many of their genre specific problems and solutions create problems outside of those genres - often in the genres I'm running. This is why I frequently don't agree that many problems raised are system problems. Many are simply genre implementation problems with the tweak needing to occur on that level.

[Vondy]

Re: 6e Characteristics

 

Man! You go away for a few days and the thread gets *WAY* off topic. These are the kinds of arguments I especially wanted to avoid in this thread - things that have nothing to do with 6e Characteristics, things that we already argued about at length in the 6e threads, and things we've argued about many times even prior to that.

 

Sean brings up the idea of removing INT as a characteristic, an idea so utterly preposterous that it might actually work. INT could be replaced by not just Enhanced PER and Skill Levels, but also Skill Enhancers, which could be embellished a bit - add more levels/detail/granularity to the Skill Enhancers. There are many ways to do this, for example, not just "Scientist" for -1 on the cost of all Sciences, but "Chemist" for -1 on the cost of all Chemistry-related sciences.

 

Personally: INT, PRE, and COM could all be replaced with skill levels with very little actual system tweaking, which would, at the same time, due to the descriptive nature of skill level titles, open the door to an effects based form of granularity. The only thing you'd really need to to is replace the current presence attack rolls with an opposed characteristic contest and a MoS chart for determining effects. I did not include EGO because, while you could do the same thing with mental power effects, you would have to recost the mental powers, which could open up the door to some significant cost structure issues. And if we really wanted to be super zany (and what I'm suggesting would work much better at the heroic level of play) we could simply remove the number value and give all primary characteristics a base 11- value with the option of buying them up. You'd still need the secondary characteristics and a body number (unless you wanted to abstract a body roll system). But for the primaries it would work fairly well. You could determine lift for strength based on MoS, for instance. This would take a good deal of work, but if you wanted to go whole hog with streamlining and consistency, it is possible to do.

 

In fact, I may fiddle with the idea of "hero without actual characteristics" for kicks.