Endurance Reserves

[CptPatriot]

Since Steve is likely quite busy at work with this question, I'll ask y'all:

 

My question is regarding Endurance Reserves and Powers drawing on them.

 

Normally, if you had, say a force field, powered by an END Reserve, it would stay on when you go unconscious.

 

Now, if you wanted your Powers powered by your reserve to cut off when you are stunned or KO'd...

 

1) What kind of limitation would you use to represent that?

2) Where would you place it, on the power(s) that draws from the reserve, or the reserve itself?

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Endurance Reserves

 

Force Field isn't a Persistent power, so it's going to go off if you go unconscious. Running it from an END Reserve doesn't give it the Persistent Advantage for free. So, that assumption is wrong.

 

The only thing an END Reserve does for a KO'd character is continue to take its recoveries, because it's independent from the character's personal REC, which doesn't work when KO'd.

 

The Limitation Nonpersistent (Under Duration in the Limitation section) for -1/4 will make normally Persistent powers non-persistent.

[CptPatriot]

Re: Endurance Reserves

 

Force Field isn't a Persistent power, so it's going to go off if you go unconscious. Running it from an END Reserve doesn't give it the Persistent Advantage for free. So, that assumption is wrong.

 

The only thing an END Reserve does for a KO'd character is continue to take its recoveries, because it's independent from the character's personal REC, which doesn't work when KO'd.

 

The Limitation Nonpersistent (Under Duration in the Limitation section) for -1/4 will make normally Persistent powers non-persistent.

 

But the rules say this about Endurance reserves:

An Endurance Reserve is “independent” of the character. Powers that draw END from an Endurance Reserve can keep doing so, and thus keep functioning, even if the character is Stunned, Knocked Out, asleep, or the like — the Reserve doesn’t lose its END in those situations. Similarly, an Endurance Reserve can keep using its REC to Recover its END even if the character is Knocked Out, can’t breathe, or the like.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Endurance Reserves

 

I'm using the non-revised 5th:

from page 103:

 

The REC in an END Reserve is independent of the character: it continues to recharge the END Reserve even if the character is unconscious or preoccupied. Moreover, unlike personal END, the END in an END Reserve is not lost if the character is Knocked Out.

 

Now, while what you have from Revised is an expansion on the version I have, I still don't see anything saying that END Reserve comes with a free +1/2 Advantage for powers drawing on it.

 

Normally, when a character gets KO'd, their END goes to 0. That would shut off any Persistent Powers they have running. I think what you quoted is just clarifying that aspect of END Reserve. Nonpersistent powers are going to get shut off regardless, when Stunned or KO'd.

 

So, I'm going to go with my first assessment barring word from Steve. A free +1/2 Advantage is a bit over the top, given what END Reserve already does for the character.

[CptPatriot]

Re: Endurance Reserves

 

Steve responded to that issue in the forums @ [thread]15074[/thread]

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Endurance Reserves

 

That post doesn't address persistent vs. non-persistent powers. Until Steve flat out says END Reserve makes non-persistent powers persistent, I'm not inclined to give out a +1/2 Advantage for free.

[CptPatriot]

Re: Endurance Reserves

 

That post doesn't address persistent vs. non-persistent powers. Until Steve flat out says END Reserve makes non-persistent powers persistent' date=' I'm not inclined to give out a +1/2 Advantage for free.[/quote']

 

But you can't buy the persistant advantage unless the power is 0 END Cost.

 

On the other hand, the rules for Constant powers are clear:

A character can maintain a Constant Power over time. Once a character has turned a Constant Power on, all he has to do is spend END each Phase to keep it activated. Constant Powers include Powers like Force Field, Flight, Invisibility, and any power bought with the Continuous Advantage (page 257).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Endurance Reserves

 

From the 5e (not revised) FAQ:

http://www.herogames.com/rulesFAQ.htm?ruleset=Hero+System+Fifth+Edition&section=&keywords=Endurance+Reserve&dateString=

 

If a power is powered by the END from an Endurance Reserve, does the power stop operating if the character is Stunned, Knocked Out, or unconscious? If yes, could you apply Persistent (without Reduced Endurance [0 END]) to allow the power to keep functioning?

 

The text specifically notes that if a character is Knocked Out, his Endurance Reserve doesn’t lose END, and that the REC is “independent” of the character and goes on functioning if the character is Knocked Out. The same would apply to being Stunned, obviously. (The Personal REC Limitation changes this for REC, of course.)

 

Carrying this logic forward, a power drawing END from an Endurance Reserve wouldn’t shut off if the character were Knocked Out or Stunned. You could buy a Personal END (-1/2) Limitation on the Reserve’s END to make the power(s) shut off when the character is unconscious.

 

As always, the GM may in his discretion forbid this. Endurance Reserves could cause game balance problems if improperly used for this sort of thing. Or he could, as suggested, require a character to buy Persistent (without Reduced Endurance [0 END]) to make a power keep functioning with Reserve END when the character is Knocked Out.

 

 

Also, there is an alternative method to using an Endurance Reserve that solves the 'persistent' issue as well:

 

Continuing Fuel Charges

 

Just like a power with the Persistent Advantage a power with a Continuing Fuel Charge continues to function even if the power's owner is Stunned or Knocked Out.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Endurance Reserves

 

But you can't buy the persistant advantage unless the power is 0 END Cost.

 

On the other hand, the rules for Constant powers are clear:

 

Hmm, you have a point here. Seems like a pretty big bonus side effect for the power, though. I'll be interested in hearing what Steve has to say on it in the questions thread.

[CptPatriot]

Re: Endurance Reserves

 

Thanks Hyperman, that does help clear up some stuff. Let's see if Steve gets a free moment to answer my question so we all can have a definitive answer.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Endurance Reserves

 

I'm using the non-revised 5th:

 

Now, while what you have from Revised is an expansion on the version I have, I still don't see anything saying that END Reserve comes with a free +1/2 Advantage for powers drawing on it.

 

Normally, when a character gets KO'd, their END goes to 0. That would shut off any Persistent Powers they have running. I think what you quoted is just clarifying that aspect of END Reserve. Nonpersistent powers are going to get shut off regardless, when Stunned or KO'd.

 

So, I'm going to go with my first assessment barring word from Steve. A free +1/2 Advantage is a bit over the top, given what END Reserve already does for the character.

 

But you can't buy the persistant advantage unless the power is 0 END Cost.

 

On the other hand, the rules for Constant powers are clear:

 

That covers it entirely. Powers that cost END are not persistent by definition. You cannot buy them persistent. If an END reserve can fuel a power when the user is stunned or KO'd, then this must apply to non-persistent powers. The various quotes are "word from Steve".

 

So which approach is better? Well, I can make my 10/10 Force Field 0 END, Persistent for 20 points. If I have a 5 Speed (an average Supers speed, in my experience), I can buy a 10 point END reserve for 1 points, and 10 REC for 10 points, and get a very similar effect for 11 points. I'm inclined to agree this indicates something is mispriced. The solution, to me, would be to either reprice END reserve, or to allow Persistent to be applied to the power, in which case it keeps drawing from the reserve even if the user is KO'd.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Endurance Reserves

 

To the original question, the limitation belongs on the END of the END reserve. Nothing else is having its functionality altered by the limitation.

 

The advantage of the END reserve is that the END enjoys a type of "persistent" advantage that ordinary END does not, being lost when you're KO'd. So I would suggest that appplying Nonpersistent to the END reserve would be the appropriate approach.

 

It doesn't save a lot of points, because this persistence comes without a lot of cost. As can be seen above, I think a pretty good case can be made that the END in a reserve is underpriced. Given all the changes in "the characteristics formerly known as Figured" which we will see in 6e, it seems reasonable to expect END reserve may change, especially if the costs of END and REC will change.

 

Look at the standard Super now. For the cost of, say, 46 END (23 points, and an average 23 CON), I can have a 50 point END reserve (more END) with an 18 REC (more REC for most characters). How many characters would not be better off selling all their END back and using the points to buy an END reserve to run all their abilities?