Limited Power Limitation Conditional Power Costs Broken?

[Hierax]

Some of the Limited Power - Conditional Power (H5er.299) costs don't make sense, e.g.,:

 

• Only works at Twilight -1
  

yet this is clearly way way more than 1/2 the time of the -1 Limitation - more like 1/24th the time so it should be -1 3/4 to -2.

 

 

• Only works in Daylight -1/4
  

yet daytime is only 1/2 the time so that's -1 right there and since it's only in daylight being indoors/underground/underwater would make it even more of a Limitation. Only works in light of any sort is one thing but daylight is way more specific and limited.

 

Unless these limitations are for some sort of powers that have ongoing durations these Limitations seem out of whack.

 

Can anyone explain the logic of these Limitation values?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Limited Power Limitation Conditional Power Costs Broken?

 

They're examples.

 

And it's not how often Condition X Occurs, it's how often Condition X Occurs In Your Game that's important.

 

Recost Limitations as appropriate.

[schir1964]

Re: Limited Power Limitation Conditional Power Costs Broken?

 

Some of the Limited Power - Conditional Power (H5er.299) costs don't make sense, e.g.,:

 

• Only works at Twilight -1
  

yet this is clearly way way more than 1/2 the time of the -1 Limitation - more like 1/24th the time so it should be -1 3/4 to -2.

 

 

• Only works in Daylight -1/4
  

yet daytime is only 1/2 the time so that's -1 right there and since it's only in daylight being indoors/underground/underwater would make it even more of a Limitation. Only works in light of any sort is one thing but daylight is way more specific and limited.

 

Unless these limitations are for some sort of powers that have ongoing durations these Limitations seem out of whack.

 

Can anyone explain the logic of these Limitation values?

I always inferred that Twilight is that span of time at sunset when the sun has dropped below the horizon and lasts until the glow on horizon vanishes. How long is that? 20 or 40 Minutes? Perhaps 1 Hour at most?

So I agree that the cost is undervalue, but then perhaps Twilight includes the Sunrise portion also which might give you 2 Hours every day where you can use the power dependably.

A -2 Limitation implies that the power is nearly useless so I wouldn't consider Twilight at that level.

 

Daylight lasts for what... 10 to 11 Hours? And since most characters operate during the Day instead of at night, the -1/4 Limitation seems about right.

 

Obviously, the campaign and setting the GM is running will affect the actual value of any Limitation, not just Conditional or Limited Power Limitations.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Limited Power Limitation Conditional Power Costs Broken?

 

Only Works in Daylight is less than a -1 limitation, because you know in advance when it's day time, and don't bother trying to use it when it's night. To give it the full -1 lim would be abusive because the character can simply avoid "doing his thing" at night. This isn't very limiting, assuming the character is human and in most types of campaigns. If it's a Batman-like character, who for whatever reason *must* do most of his activities at night, then it might be worth more of a limitation.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Limited Power Limitation Conditional Power Costs Broken?

 

Only Works in Daylight is less than a -1 limitation' date=' because you know in advance when it's day time, and don't bother trying to use it when it's night. To give it the full -1 lim would be abusive because the character can simply avoid "doing his thing" at night. This isn't very limiting, assuming the character is human and in most types of campaigns. If it's a Batman-like character, who for whatever reason *must* do most of his activities at night, then it might be worth more of a limitation.[/quote']

 

A clear thinking (or particularly nasty) GM might also realise that a character's enemies would know or infer that their nemesis' powers only worked during the day and so attack at night. Having predictable downtime on powers can cut both ways, edging the actual utility drop back to about 1/2 power (or full power half the time). The plot might also

 

Also it depends whether the limitation is 'only during the day', or 'only in daylight' - with the latter, being indoors might deny you access to your powers, as might a darkness field. For a lot of campaigns you might well be looking at nearer to -2 there...

 

...one way to do this kind of thing is reverse engineering: set the limitation value and expect the GM to make sure it works out that way. If you go for -1, expect to not be able to use your power, or have difficulties in doing so, about half the time. That would mean that 'Only underwater' (or whatever) has no set limitation value, it is just the sfx of the general limitation 'Doesn't work in certain situations', which has a limitation value you can set at whatever you like.

[Hierax]

Re: Limited Power Limitation Conditional Power Costs Broken?

 

The Hero System Limitations scale very well up to -1 which is a perfect fit -- half the cost for half the effect -- but really don't offer the granularity for finer effects very well as it tries to cram all restrictions into the next -1 as it approaches the -2 limit.

 

Official write-ups seem to cap out at -2 Limitation (H5ER.298) and give it for far greater of a restriction -- e.g., only under a Full Moon -2 (H5ER.299) for something that happens about 10% of the nights (less if you count daytime where character is not under a Full Moon!).

 

Say a character that wants to buy 4 different powers that work 1/4 of the time each (per Season or per 6 hours, etc.), so overall they should cost the same as 1 power that works all the time, -3 Limitation is 1/4 the cost.

 

The more restricted the Limitation the farther out the Hero System's value gets scewed compared to the actual restriction offered -- to take an extreme e.g., if you wanted something 1 hour per day it is 1/24th and would need a -23 Limitation! 1% would be a -99 Limit!

 

Past the -1 Limitation the scale shifts but no rationale is given for this. Game Designer notes would be very helpful in seeing the intentions of the system.

 

Makes me wonder what Hero would be like if it was designed using a %-based instead of a Fractional-based system...

[ghost-angel]

Re: Limited Power Limitation Conditional Power Costs Broken?

 

Those numbers only hold if that's the only Limitation being applied though.

 

And they're not particularly practical. I think, you've over thought this.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Limited Power Limitation Conditional Power Costs Broken?

 

I think that stories generally will tend to dwell less on the 'downtime' of powers: sure you only have the ability to turn into a raging maniac once a month for about 4 days, but, believe me, those are the four days everyone'll remember for most of the next month.

 

Too much?

 

Anyway, point is that, even though you only have superpowers in the presence of spandex (it's a working theory...) the limitation value will ensure that there is spandex around a good part of the time, rare and precious though it may be in the real world*.

 

 

 

 

 

*Shurely shome mishtake?

[Hierax]

Re: Limited Power Limitation Conditional Power Costs Broken?

 

Yeah, you're right, I am overthinking it. I'm a big believer in the idea that "You don't know how far you can go until you've gone too far" so every now and then I like to question the system assumptions and sometimes get a good idea out of it or at least tweak some house rules a bit.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Limited Power Limitation Conditional Power Costs Broken?

 

s'alright. No harm in overthinking a situation. Sean's practically made a hobby out of it.

[rjcurrie]

Re: Limited Power Limitation Conditional Power Costs Broken?

 

s'alright. No harm in overthinking a situation. Sean's practically made a hobby out of it.

 

Hobby? Hobby? I always thought it was a full time job and he was working a lot of overtime.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Limited Power Limitation Conditional Power Costs Broken?

 

s'alright. No harm in overthinking a situation. Sean's practically made a hobby out of it.

 

I was going to correct you to 'career', but I see my loyal fanbase beat me to it

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Limited Power Limitation Conditional Power Costs Broken?

 

A clear thinking (or particularly nasty) GM might also realise that a character's enemies would know or infer that their nemesis' powers only worked during the day and so attack at night. Having predictable downtime on powers can cut both ways' date=' edging the actual utility drop back to about 1/2 power (or full power half the time).[/quote']

Only if the nemesis knows where the character is during that downtime.

 

BTW, there is no limit of -2 to Limitations. Check out Extra Time, Increased END cost, and others.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Limited Power Limitation Conditional Power Costs Broken?

 

I think people stop there because 1) It's usually a good practical cap and 2) Limited Power stops there, at least in Hero Designer.

[Hierax]

Re: Limited Power Limitation Conditional Power Costs Broken?

 

By Limit I was referring to the Limited Power Limitation maxes out at -2 (H5ER.298-299).

 

It's not just the nemesis, it's that it limits a character's operating areas/times. e.g., if your powers only work in the daytime, you're not much help against a night raid; if your powers only work in daylight good luck cleaning out those dark caves; etc.

[Hierax]

Re: Limited Power Limitation Conditional Power Costs Broken?

 

E.g., Werewolf dude with Powers Only Under A Full Moon (-2) gets 3 nights out of 29-ish, so 1/58th of the time/usefullness for 1/3rd the cost.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Limited Power Limitation Conditional Power Costs Broken?

 

Yeah - I regularly ignore that. Limitations are worth what I say they're worth in my games and what the GM agrees they're worth in games I'm a player in.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Limited Power Limitation Conditional Power Costs Broken?

 

E.g.' date=' Werewolf dude with Powers Only Under A Full Moon (-2) gets 3 nights out of 29-ish, so 1/58th of the time/usefullness for 1/3rd the cost.[/quote']

 

There's more to it than that though. Since games don't run real time a GM can orchestrate the Game so the Full Moon Only Power comes into play a little more often than the actual Full Moon In Real Life occurs.

 

Remember, especially with Time Sensitive Items, the time frame is as often or infrequent as the GM lets them be. Could be a full third of adventures manage to end up around the Full Moon at the critical moment.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Limited Power Limitation Conditional Power Costs Broken?

 

Only if the nemesis knows where the character is during that downtime.

 

Or does some work to figure that out. A player who takes a Limitation that his powers are unavailable half the time should expect that the character will face serious challenges at times when those powers are not available. Otherwise, it's not much of a Limitation, is it?

 

That can be moderated - to me, putting a -1/2 limitation on the power is a contract between GM and player that the power will be available considerably more often than it is unavailable. Slap a -1 limitation on it, and you're saying you expect - or WANT - that power to be available only about half the time it would be useful.

 

It's not just the nemesis' date=' it's that it limits a character's operating areas/times. e.g., if your powers only work in the daytime, you're not much help against a night raid; if your powers only work in daylight good luck cleaning out those dark caves; etc.[/quote']

 

E.g.' date=' Werewolf dude with Powers Only Under A Full Moon (-2) gets 3 nights out of 29-ish, so 1/58th of the time/usefullness for 1/3rd the cost.[/quote']

 

The problem is that those characters generally tend not to face challenges their power suite is unsuited to. They don't go on a night raid - they wait for the daytime. They don't delve into the dark caves - they make a plan to lure their opponents out. And, if they are forced to go without their powers in 95% of all combat encounters (whether they got a -2 or a -19 limitation), very few tend to say "well, it was a power I didn't expect to use very often", they whine that the GM is screwing them over.

 

A character with No Conscious Control should be able to expect over 6 times the benefits from that power than a character who receives a discount proportionate with having his power only available 5% of the time. With a -2 limitation, the power should still be available, uncommonly but with some frequency commensurate with the points spent.

[Hierax]

Re: Limited Power Limitation Conditional Power Costs Broken?

 

Or the characters have teammates that have different Limitations on their Powers and they work as a team to cover each others weaknesses.

 

BTW, by night raid it wasn't so much deciding to go on one as defending against one, but it's both really.

 

FWIW, I like an sand-boxy, open-ended style of gaming where the characters have to deal with a variety of different environments and situations and I think giving big Limitations makes them pull together as a team. That's part of where I'm coming from.

[rjcurrie]

Re: Limited Power Limitation Conditional Power Costs Broken?

 

Or the characters have teammates that have different Limitations on their Powers and they work as a team to cover each others weaknesses.

 

BTW, by night raid it wasn't so much deciding to go on one as defending against one, but it's both really.

 

FWIW, I like an sand-boxy, open-ended style of gaming where the characters have to deal with a variety of different environments and situations and I think giving big Limitations makes them pull together as a team. That's part of where I'm coming from.

 

Interesting. Personally, if they're spending a lot of the time when their powers don't work with people who have powers that do work, then I think the Limitation is worth even less.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Limited Power Limitation Conditional Power Costs Broken?

 

Sometimes a Limitation isn't where the Power becomes unavailable, but how it forces a Player and by extension the Character to think more tactically and about How they're going to approach a situation.

 

If a Limitation limits their options as much as it limits actual usage I would said the Limitation has come into play equally. Even if they get to use the Power all the time, it's because they orchestrated events to their advantage versus ignoring their envrinoment completely.

[CourtFool]

Re: Limited Power Limitation Conditional Power Costs Broken?

 

...they whine that the GM is screwing them over.

 

That sounds like an entirely different problem to me.

 

I have often thought Hero should switch to percentages. Not that I have that much difficulty with fractions, but it would be easier to offer a finer granularity.

[ajackson]

Re: Limited Power Limitation Conditional Power Costs Broken?

 

Limited power is an odd duck, because there's really around four major factors you should think about when defining the limitation value.

• How often will this power be randomly accessible?
  
• How difficult is it for the PC to cause the power to be accessible? If you have a power that's only usable at twilight, it may (depending on the power and the situation) be practical to wait around until twilight to use the power, in which case the power is certainly less limited than, say, extra time (24 hours; -3.5). Mind control (only vs men) isn't terribly limiting at all -- while any given target may only have a 50% chance of being a man, the odds of there being some target it's useful to hit with the power is probably upwards of 80%.
  
• How difficult and likely is it for enemies to cause the power to be unavailable? Going back to the 'only vs men' option, for mind control, the bad guys have to build an entire team of female characters, which is a pain. On the other hand, if you have 'only vs men' on your defenses, well, it only takes one or two female characters to take advantage of that weakness. Thus, it's really a bigger limitation on defenses than on attacks.
  
• Is it obvious ahead of time whether the power will work? If so, you're not going to waste time attempting to use the power. This isn't a huge issue, but it's probably a -1/4 or so.
  

[Ice9]

Re: Limited Power Limitation Conditional Power Costs Broken?

 

It also matters significantly what the power is. A scrying or summoning power that only works at sunset is a heck of a lot more useful than an attack power with the same limits. Any power with lasting effects is only going to suffer a lot less from a time-based limitation.

 

And as ajackson mentions, how often the power is randomly accessible is only one factor of several in how often the power will actually be available in gameplay.