Help with an Ineffective Ice Mage...

[Manic Typist]

Re: Help with an Ineffective Ice Mage...

 

Why should the warrior have high DEX or SPD? Skilled in martial combat? Skill levels. Multiple attacks? Sweep and/or Powers as Skills. Traditionally, it's the Rogue who has that high DEX and SPD, so aren't you stepping on his schtick (and the wizard may also be stepping on it)?

 

I note the Ice Wizard has a STR of 8. He's not going to be nearly as effective with that sword as any warrior will be, since the warrior's traditional schtick is high STR - certainly an 8 would be a very low STR for a warrior.

 

DEX, in its current incarnation, is a direct and point efficient way to model (or begin to model) typical abilities desired in a warrior. Accuracy and "attacking lots." Sweep and Powers as skills, and Skill Levels, are all excellent ways of adding on to this core and fine tuning it... but I think it'd be unfair to insist that the warrior achieve this only through those means when he could get more bang for his buck elsewhere.

 

Also, I disagree that the Rogue traditionally has higher DEX and SPD. The Rogue is definitely more agile, traditionally, but that is only one subpart of what DEX is overall. Nonetheless, it is not an unusual task to differentiate between a DEX based Rogue and a DEX based warrior. You could give them both the same DEX and SPD and still have them feel unique. You just have to tailor their additional abilities to ensure that they each have a unique contribution to the group and that each shines in their respective fields.

 

You can of course do the same with a wizard type, but I think it's harder and...not as reasonable. A Rogue, very often (certainly not always), is based on the idea of an individual who has placed a great deal of emphasis of enhancing their body and their physical abilities. They have trained and worked to perfect their movements and decision making abilities within an environment that requires the careful application of their muscle and brains against external forces. If a wizard wanted a bunch of spells that could steal a rogue's shtick (Stealth, Invisibility, certain Image builds, etc) I would take a long hard look before I would allow it. What's the Rogue going to feel like when the Wizard can keep up easily while he's performing a difficult infiltration? I would think he would feel that some of his thunder is being stolen.

 

With a wizard... again, to use a "simple" idea of a wizard.... how can someone who's supposed to have dedicated so much of their time and energy to mastering the esoteric mysteries of magic also be nearly as good as I am in the physical, or even AS good? Am I some kind of chump for not having also mastered magic, or at least mastered some of it?

 

 

The low STR is an excellent nod towards "traditional" wizard traits, and may very well provide the balance necessary to allow the warrior to feel sufficiently proficient and useful while allowing for a very DEXterous, higher SPD wizard. I hope so. It could be a lot of fun.

 

But that acknowledges that something needed to be balanced, which was my point.

 

 

Also- Ragnarok is the warrior character, whose build you can see in the Pulling the Fangs thread. I suspect I'm going to end up significantly changing it, because I think his CVs are unbalanced (and I made him! Long story short they asked me to increase his CVs without knowing what his CVs could already do).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Help with an Ineffective Ice Mage...

 

DEX' date=' in its current incarnation, is a direct and point efficient way to model (or begin to model) typical abilities desired in a warrior. Accuracy and "attacking lots." Sweep and Powers as skills, and Skill Levels, are all excellent ways of adding on to this core and fine tuning it... but I think it'd be unfair to insist that the warrior achieve this only through those means when he could get more bang for his buck elsewhere.[/quote']

 

Wizards are traditionally pretty accurate with their spells as well. Why are they required to purchase that accuracyin a less point-efficient manner?

 

Also, I disagree that the Rogue traditionally has higher DEX and SPD. The Rogue is definitely more agile, traditionally, but that is only one subpart of what DEX is overall. Nonetheless, it is not an unusual task to differentiate between a DEX based Rogue and a DEX based warrior. You could give them both the same DEX and SPD and still have them feel unique. You just have to tailor their additional abilities to ensure that they each have a unique contribution to the group and that each shines in their respective fields.

 

You can of course do the same with a wizard type, but I think it's harder and...not as reasonable. A Rogue, very often (certainly not always), is based on the idea of an individual who has placed a great deal of emphasis of enhancing their body and their physical abilities. They have trained and worked to perfect their movements and decision making abilities within an environment that requires the careful application of their muscle and brains against external forces. If a wizard wanted a bunch of spells that could steal a rogue's shtick (Stealth, Invisibility, certain Image builds, etc) I would take a long hard look before I would allow it. What's the Rogue going to feel like when the Wizard can keep up easily while he's performing a difficult infiltration? I would think he would feel that some of his thunder is being stolen.

 

I suspect a Wizard whose spells always miss will not feel that he is getting fair use of his abilities either. He could buy skill levels with his magic - and the warrior could buy skill levels with combat. Why should only one get to be point-efficient? And why should that one be the one who also gets his rDEF and his attacks at no point cost through gear?

[incrdbil]

Re: Help with an Ineffective Ice Mage...

 

In a purely gamist observation, the 10 Con is a problem. It makes you pretty easily stunned, which loses you a precious action. I dont hold to the

 

As for the Ice Armor spell--well, if the intent of that spell is to be a total defensive reaction, maybe its ok, but thats a huge resistant amount for basic walking around purposes. You effectively take yourself out of the offensive contrbution to the fight--unless you then resort to a ranged weapon atatck, which might be tempting.

 

As a GM, I might let you keep the Ice Armor spell, but make it require Total Concentration--you encase yourself in a giant immobile block of ice.

 

Maybe rework it to be a small Force Wall, vulnerable to fire, and name it Ice Shield?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Help with an Ineffective Ice Mage...

 

Can I get the hdc file for this character please?

[Ragnarok]

Re: Help with an Ineffective Ice Mage...

 

I don't profess to know the intricate details of each spell build, but just from a gamer's point of view, it seems out of place that a wizard can snap their fingers, have basically twice my rDef, and still sling high damage iceblasts like there's no tomorrow. I'm not saying the wizard can't have a defensive spell. All I'm saying is that, just like my skills, there needs to be a tradeoff.

 

No mage tanks please. I think that's what this is really about, regardless of any wizard stereotypes. If a wizard can take twice as much damage as I can, and do twice as much damage than I can, then what am I good for? A distraction? No thank you.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Help with an Ineffective Ice Mage...

 

Wizards are traditionally pretty accurate with their spells as well. Why are they required to purchase that accuracyin a less point-efficient manner?

 

...because I'm allowing them access to abilities and Powers that I'd deny other character types/origins/whatevers. I'm giving them power, but again, it's a tradeoff.

 

 

I suspect a Wizard whose spells always miss will not feel that he is getting fair use of his abilities either. He could buy skill levels with his magic - and the warrior could buy skill levels with combat. Why should only one get to be point-efficient?

 

Both get to be point efficient. But the one whose shtick primarily rests upon and NEEDS one thing gets "dibs" on getting high stats in his or her area of specialization on the cheap. I'm not going to let the warrior have a ridiculous DEX either. After a certain point, he's going to need to start investing in CSLs if what he wants is a higher CV, because that's what is more appropriate for what he overall wants to represent: a quick (not blindingly fast) highly skilled warrior, for example. (Say DEX 15-17, CVs 9-11. That's, of course, using one particular set of benchmarks. Change the benchmarks, change the game!)

 

And why should that one be the one who also gets his rDEF and his attacks at no point cost through gear?

 

...because the tradeoff is that this person's gear carries the Real Equipment Limitation, can be easily stolen, is more limited in scope and power level than what magic can do, and more (PRE bonuses for displaying a Power, for instance)! I'm not talking about stacking the deck in the warrior's favor, and attacks that rest upon that supposition are spurious and misleading to the point that I'm actually discussing: that a high DEX and SPD can infringe on the warrior's shtick, and that this is reasonable grounds for the GM to take action. Even if the warrior were to be completely broken and abusively built, that in no way refutes the original proposition. It just raises an issue to be addressed AFTER the first one has been dealt with.

 

I'm talking about Balance and Spotlight Time. I feel it is the GM's job to make sure every player has time in the spotlight, and time in the spotlight to himself or herself, a chance to shine and say "If it weren't for my actions here, my contributions to the group, the story might have turned out differently and less happily."

 

It is entirely possible to have a wizard with a higher DEX and SPD than the warrior and have a great game. It's entirely possible to have two wizards in the party and have a great game. It's entirely possible to have two character sheets that are EXACTLY the same except for the background history and have a great game. I just think that, in general, that is going to be more difficult to achieve than you'd see with shtick preservation/differentiation, and that it will be an issue that the parties involved need to be aware of in case that it turns out for some reason someone IS discontent with how the game is playing out.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Help with an Ineffective Ice Mage...

 

I don't profess to know the intricate details of each spell build, but just from a gamer's point of view, it seems out of place that a wizard can snap their fingers, have basically twice my rDef, and still sling high damage iceblasts like there's no tomorrow. I'm not saying the wizard can't have a defensive spell. All I'm saying is that, just like my skills, there needs to be a tradeoff.

 

No mage tanks please. I think that's what this is really about, regardless of any wizard stereotypes. If a wizard can take twice as much damage as I can, and do twice as much damage than I can, then what am I good for? A distraction? No thank you.

 

I think the fact he could only get double your rDEF by locking out all his other spells mitigates this somewhat. From a pure balance perspective, I would be more concerned about the 8/8 force field outside the Multipower than the 12/12 field inside. But I also think that rDEF on the whole needs to be appropriately limited in a fantasy game, and both of those levels of rDEF look awfully high. Obviously, I don't know the full game parameters (or whether the warrior will soon upgrade his own armor), but 8 rDEF seems like a lot in the typical Fantasy game.

 

Both get to be point efficient. But the one whose shtick primarily rests upon and NEEDS one thing gets "dibs" on getting high stats in his or her area of specialization on the cheap.

 

Ultimately, I think where we disagree is whether high DEX is, in fact, the warrior's area of specialization. I don't see it as such. I could certainly see a game where the basic rule is "you can't have a stat over 15 unless it is germane to your character concept", but I would generally dovetail this with a restriction in how many stats you can have over 15 (or, for things like Speed, an alternate benchmark - say, 3).

 

Your Schtick is fast and agile? OK, you're DEX can be 17-20 and your SPD can be 4. But nothing else goes above the half way point between "human base" and NCM. Your schtick is "big and tough"? Your STR and CON can be above 15. It's quick thinking and wise? INT and EGO. You're charming and quick-witted? INT and PRE. You're tireless? END and REC.

 

But "you're a warrior, so you can have higher STR, DEX, CON, BOD and SPD than I'll allow the others"? No. Not unless there's some offsetting drawback (eg. you don't use weapons).

 

DEX tends to be a sticking point, because no one wants their character to be ineffectual, missing often feels ineffectual, and a fairly small difference in CV can significantly reduce the probability of landing a hit considerably.

[AnotherSkip]

Re: Help with an Ineffective Ice Mage...

 

+x 3 point Skill levels with Multipower nicely removes the need for high dex at about the same cost and makes the caster mucho specialised.

 

Besides if the Gm is nice you can convert those csls to effect increasers (via options 3 or 4 under skill levels) when you have a good reason to expect a decent chance of hitting.

 

Picking up any weapon after that mod is something the caster should look at with distaste after that point.

 

And 14 dex is a good breakpoint too.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Help with an Ineffective Ice Mage...

 

+x 3 point Skill levels with Multipower nicely removes the need for high dex at about the same cost and makes the caster mucho specialised.

 

Besides if the Gm is nice you can convert those csls to effect increasers (via options 3 or 4 under skill levels) when you have a good reason to expect a decent chance of hitting.

 

Picking up any weapon after that mod is something the caster should look at with distaste after that point.

 

And 14 dex is a good breakpoint too.

 

All true - but equally true for those warriors with their signature weaponry. And a wide array of spells should result in skill levels that cost the same as for a wide array of weaponry, so they should both go up to 5 point levels at about the same level of versatility, IMO.

[AnotherSkip]

Re: Help with an Ineffective Ice Mage...

 

The point however is to remove a level of "must have high dex to hit" and "I is as gud wit swords as fighter" and as "dexteroious as thief".

 

in addition a fighter using signature weaponry would by using those same skill levels would then feel different than a different fighter using different weaponry if built correctly.

 

 

Thus a reliance on Skill levels instead of base stats is one way to reduce stat inflation/duplication and other problems.

 

If you like classes however you could just build a skill enhancer to reduce the package cost of a class to better make a distinction between fighter and mage.

[Tasha]

Re: Help with an Ineffective Ice Mage...

 

Ok Characteristics for the Powerlevel "Powerful Heroic" sets the characteristic range to 10-20. (SPD 2-4) This is the Powerlevel that Narf said that the game is based around.

 

IMHO the Mage who should be topping the INT scale, Probably shouldn't be topping both the Dex and SPD ranges. That's just taking up niches that other character classes could be taking. Also having the mage be the equivalent of dex 20 starts that old heroic problem of Dex and Spd creep. Because the GM starts to base the mooks around the higher dex and speed, which makes the fighter types who were at dex 14 spd 3 to realize that they aren't that heroic in stats.

 

As to why many people are down on mages being high Dex and Spd. The stereotypical mage is an academic. They are someone who spends most of their time reading old tomes and scrolls. Probably while sitting on their widening tail ends. The same lack of physical exertion that makes most mages low STR also tends to not make them very agile. The time reading makes them a great resource for knowledge esoteric and mundane, also mages tend to speak many languages (including ancient and "Dead" languages). The casting of complicated spells should also make their minds stronger (high EGO).

 

Honestly, I would recommend that you take the dex down to 14 and speed to 3 and use the points to purchase some of those skill levels that Skip mentioned (Level with Spells 3pts/+1) and also buy more knowledges/languages and other wizardly skills.

 

Again I am not your GM, Narf is. So if he is ok with this that's fine; it's his game.

 

Tasha

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Help with an Ineffective Ice Mage...

 

As to why many people are down on mages being high Dex and Spd. The stereotypical mage is an academic. They are someone who spends most of their time reading old tomes and scrolls. Probably while sitting on their widening tail ends. The same lack of physical exertion that makes most mages low STR also tends to not make them very agile. The time reading makes them a great resource for knowledge esoteric and mundane, also mages tend to speak many languages (including ancient and "Dead" languages). The casting of complicated spells should also make their minds stronger (high EGO).

 

Honestly, I would recommend that you take the dex down to 14 and speed to 4 and use the points to purchase some of those skill levels that Skip mentioned (Level with Spells 3pts/+1) and also buy more knowledges/languages and other wizardly skills.

 

I assume you mean SPD 3. That would save the character 16 points (10 from SPD, +2/DEX after Speed rebate = 6). That would buy a lot of 3 point levels, provided the GM allows Spells as 3, rather than 5, point levels. Of course, it also reduces the character's actions, and thus his spotlight time. Not knowing the campaign standard, I don't know whether everyone else is SPD 4, everyone else is SPD 3 or somewhere in between.

 

To knowledges, languages and "wizardly skills", that depends a lot on the game. If the game will make these worth the points spent, I agree. often, players who are reluctant to purchase such skills are playing in games where the Fighter buys combat skills, and gets to show them off routinely in combat, the wizard buys knowledge, languages, etc. which are never used in game and the rogue buys interaction skills but the GM resolves everything by "role playing" so the character never actually benefits from those skills.

 

To the DEX issue, much of the problem is that DEX gives too much for its price. DEX skills, OCV, DCV, first strike - all for 2 points each (the third point comes back - who doesn't buy their SPD up?). With 6e, the wizard will likely feel much less pressure to buy up DEX (how many DEX skills will he have? he's only getting 1st strike), perhaps less to buy up DCV (will he dodge, or protect himself with spells?) and might want to buy limited (only with spells) OCV, or buy skill levels with spells instead. Of course, this still depends on relative pricing, but the splitting of components seems like it will encourage purchasing only the components that are germane to the character.

[Tasha]

Re: Help with an Ineffective Ice Mage...

 

To knowledges, languages and "wizardly skills", that depends a lot on the game. If the game will make these worth the points spent, I agree. often, players who are reluctant to purchase such skills are playing in games where the Fighter buys combat skills, and gets to show them off routinely in combat, the wizard buys knowledge, languages, etc. which are never used in game and the rogue buys interaction skills but the GM resolves everything by "role playing" so the character never actually benefits from those skills.

 

When I am in a game, if the GM doesn't usually notice things like KS's and PS's I will ask questions and suggest a Skill roll I could be making. Same with Interaction skills. ie for Trading, I will RP it some and then I will ask if I should make a Trading Skill roll and If I got any bonuses for RPing it. Eventually the GM gets into the habit of asking for the roll.

 

Tasha

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Help with an Ineffective Ice Mage...

 

Can I get the hdc file for this character please?

 

Bump?

[Tasha]

Re: Help with an Ineffective Ice Mage...

 

Bump?

 

Icy's last posted write up is here: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1867957&postcount=29

 

It included the .hdc

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Help with an Ineffective Ice Mage...

 

When I am in a game' date=' if the GM doesn't usually notice things like KS's and PS's I will ask questions and suggest a Skill roll I could be making. Same with Interaction skills. ie for Trading, I will RP it some and then I will ask if I should make a Trading Skill roll and If I got any bonuses for RPing it. Eventually the GM gets into the habit of asking for the roll.[/quote']

 

This works fine if there are opportunities to use those skills. If you buy half a dozen languages, but never speak to anyone who speaks them, but not languages everyone knows anyway, and never find any documents written in those languages, it's just a point sink. Same goes for other KS's.

 

Interaction skills have their value so long as the GM doesn't override them with "I resolve such situations based on the player's role playing, not the dice".

 

I see a lot of GM's complain that players "never buy anything not useful in combat". My first response is typically to ask whether the players have learned from experience that they "never get value out of anything not useful in combat".

[Tasha]

Re: Help with an Ineffective Ice Mage...

 

This works fine if there are opportunities to use those skills. If you buy half a dozen languages, but never speak to anyone who speaks them, but not languages everyone knows anyway, and never find any documents written in those languages, it's just a point sink. Same goes for other KS's.

 

Interaction skills have their value so long as the GM doesn't override them with "I resolve such situations based on the player's role playing, not the dice".

 

I see a lot of GM's complain that players "never buy anything not useful in combat". My first response is typically to ask whether the players have learned from experience that they "never get value out of anything not useful in combat".

 

I agree with the first thing. I try my best to figure out what skills could be possibly used (usually by making sure that there is good synergy with my other skills). GM's I play with know that I do tend to rewrite my characters after the first couple of sessions (to kind of fine tune, to add stuff I missed and remove stuff that doesn't fit)

 

As for the last bit, I point out that I am not my character and I am not someone who knows how to bribe someone, or how to best pick up someone at a bar, or even how to get around organizations. Even if I was personally skilled at it, my character may be better. So it helps the game to do Skill vs skill checks for all interaction skills.

 

Tasha

[Manic Typist]

Re: Help with an Ineffective Ice Mage...

 

Of course' date=' it also reduces the character's actions, and thus his spotlight time. [/quote']

 

That's not exactly true. It's true that he might take "fewer" actions, but since there's only one other player currently (with a character sitting a SPD 3), I sincerely doubt it would decrease his spotlight time but rather allow both players to share the spotlight equally. A small difference for the wizard (except in points!), and perhaps a big difference for the warrior.

 

 

Also- GMs should of course try to use the skills on the sheet, as the player should try to look for opportunities and creative ways to utilize those skills. Roleplaying is good, but it's another problem entirely when the GM relies solely upon the roleplaying skill of the character and ignores the points spent.

[Ragnarok]

Re: Help with an Ineffective Ice Mage...

 

This entire thread might be a moot point, because we haven't heard from Konan for a week.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Help with an Ineffective Ice Mage...

 

As for the last bit' date=' I point out that I am not my character and I am not someone who knows how to bribe someone, or how to best pick up someone at a bar, or even how to get around organizations. Even if I was personally skilled at it, my character may be better. So it helps the game to do Skill vs skill checks for all interaction skills.[/quote']

 

I agree 100%, but not every GM or gaming group does. My preference is to use the skills (interaction, knowledge, whatever). Next step down, if the game is not going to use the skills, tell the players up front that these skills will not get game value, so don't waste your points on them. If the character wants to speak 6 ancient languages, fine. It will never come up in game, so it's free - just like he doesn't pay points for being blonde.

 

The worst result, to me, comes when the GM says nothing, and lets the players spend a lot of points on skills and abilities that he will not give any value to in the game.

 

That's not exactly true. It's true that he might take "fewer" actions' date=' but since there's only one other player currently (with a character sitting a SPD 3), I sincerely doubt it would decrease his spotlight time but rather allow both players to share the spotlight equally. A [b']small difference for the wizard [/b](except in points!), and perhaps a big difference for the warrior.

 

I find it hard to see this as having minimal impact on one of two characters and substantial impact on the other, but the two characters having equal SPD would not seem to put the Wizard at an unfair disadvantage compared to the other PC. Having a higher SPD isn't either one's schtick.

 

Also- GMs should of course try to use the skills on the sheet' date=' as the player should try to look for opportunities and creative ways to utilize those skills. Roleplaying is good, but it's another problem entirely when the GM relies solely upon the roleplaying skill of the character and ignores the points spent.[/quote']

 

Again, I agree 100%. But I don't know whether that has happened in games the Mage player has played in the past (what happens in the current game can't be influencing his design choices yet). I also note that all of his spells are combat-oriented - Flight and maybe Suppress Magic being the only ones with any non-combat use. The player seems to be focused primarily or exclusively on combat spells.

 

Looking at other abilities, he has spent 12 points on "combat spellcasting" (no idea what that is), 17 on noncombat perks (22 if Wealth isn't used to buy gear), 19 on talents (although the bonus with INT skills also helps his magic skill roll), and 36 on non-combat skills. That's 72 points - over 1/3 of the character - on noncombat abilities. What should the breakdown be? What percentage of the warrior's points went to combat utility?

 

I don't think it's practical to assess the mage in isolation - the abilities of the (only one) other PC would create a benchmark, and knowing the level of opposition wouldn't hurt.

 

Someone pointed out earlier that the mage has no "just hit the opponent hard" slots in his multipower. The warrior is likely all about attacks that hit one opponent hard, and that may be where the perceived reduced utility of the mage lies. If the warrior is a tank, the wizard needs either extra defenses (so attacks that will hurt the warrior aren't fatal), the ability to direct combat so the warrior takes the lion's share of the hits (likely not practical with two PC's) or a kindly GM who ensures that attacks against the wizard always roll pretty low, or are lower powered (the Thor/Hawkeye dilemma). It's not like the mage has a ton of extra actions to Dodge, Dive for Cover or otherwise engage in full defense.

 

A bit of discussion on tactics between the characters also wouldn't hurt - how can the mage support the warrior and vice versa to make best use of their combined abilities? That tends to develop over time, though.

 

Looking at the spells, I notice one other thing - do ANY of his spells not have reduced END? That seems to be to markedly reduce his effectiveness. He has a 100 point END reserve for his spells, with 10 REC. If he casts a 3 END spell every one of his four phases, he spends 12 END, and gets 10 back at the end of the turn. How many battles go on for 45 turns?

 

If he spent 6 END, he'd drop by 14 END a turn, net, and still have considerable staying power, with more AP for the effect of his spells. His staying power goes up even more if he drops to a 3 SPD.

 

He could slap a 4d6 RKA or 12d6 EB in his Multipower for 62 AP at normal END costs. 6d6 AoE EB/2d6 AoE RKA or 8d6/2 1/2d6 Explosion would be pretty powerful as well.

[AnotherSkip]

Re: Help with an Ineffective Ice Mage...

 

The biggest gripe I have about players is riiiight before I unleash a problem that requires a specific skill the character revamps their characters to remove that skill.

 

Oopps.

[Tasha]

Re: Help with an Ineffective Ice Mage...

 

I think the acrimonious thread has probably scared him off.

 

I was the one who mentioned that he had no non-gimmicked powers. He has 2 autofire spells, A SPD drain, A force Wall, Entangle, Flash, Flight and a FF of ice.

 

The FW, Entangle and Flash are great abilities for controlling a battle. I still recommend having one attack power that has no advantages on it except perhaps reduced endurance. Just to have a utility attack power that you can rely on that doesn't take a bazillion end from this Endurance Reserve.

 

The Autofire attacks are going to cost 5 end per shot and it's a 5 shot AF so he's burning 25 end a phase just to use those powers. (15 if he goes to 3 shot). With a OCV of 6 with no skill levels he will hit DCV 3s on average 2 shots per phase and everyone else maybe 1x but probably less. So it's not the most efficient build.

 

BTW most all of his spells cost 5end/Phase so he's burning 10 end a Turn (inc Post Seg12 Recovery)assuming he doesn't use the end hungry autofire attacks.

 

Combat Spellcasting gives him +3 DCV when he is casting spells. Though perhaps turning that into +2 levels with Magic would give him flexability. Giving the character the ability to actually hit with their spells or to go defensive.

 

The write up strikes me as a novice's try at building a complex character. An experienced player should go though and rebuild the character to show how to build it more effciently. oh well something to do...

 

tasha

[Tasha]

Re: Help with an Ineffective Ice Mage...

 

Here's a quick pass version of the character. It seems that she is supposed to be a Powerful Mage/Rogue type. I added Streetwise and Stealth as some of the character's Text seemed to recommend these skills. I did bring the DEX and SPD down a bit. I also moved the FF to outside of the MP and limited it to 8pd and ED. I also removed the annoying Side Effects and gave her Incantations for her spells

 

Other things to do to her. Prob, down power the Organizational Contact, Add Weapon Proficiencies so she can use Daggers, and other wizardly weapons.

 

Here, enjoy

Tasha

 

Click the Spoiler label if you want to see my take on the character.

 

 

 

----Soor Choia

 

Player: Konan

 

Val Char Cost

8 STR -2

15 DEX 15

13 CON 6

10 BODY 0

18 INT 8

10 EGO 0

18 PRE 8

16 COM 3

 

4/12 PD 0

5/13 ED 0

3 SPD 5

4 REC -2

26 END 0

21 STUN 0

 

7" RUN 2

2" SWIM 0

1 1/2" LEAP 0

Characteristics Cost: 43

 

Cost Power

18 Bele'cor Metieran Style: Multipower, 50-point reserve, all slots Restricted Modifiers (No slot may take Time delay, Variable Special Effects, Extra Time or Activation Roll; +0) (50 Active Points); all slots Requires A Power Skill: Bele'cor Style Roll (-1/2), IAF (Mundane-looking Jeweled Necklace; -1/2), Gestures (Requires both hands; -1/2), Incantations (-1/4)

2u 1) Ice Shards: Killing Attack - Ranged 2 1/2d6 (vs. ED), Autofire (3 shots; +1/4) (50 Active Points); Gestures (Requires both hands; -1/2), Requires A Power Skill: Bele'cor Style Roll (-1/2), IAF (Mundane-looking Jeweled Necklace; -1/2), Incantations (-1/4) (uses End Reserve)

2u 2) Ice Prison: Entangle 4d6, 4 DEF (Stops A Given Sense Group Sight Group) (50 Active Points); Requires A Power Skill: Bele'cor Style Roll (-1/2), IAF (Mundane-looking Jeweled Necklace; -1/2), Gestures (Requires both hands; -1/2), Incantations (-1/4) (uses End Reserve)

2u 3) Chilling hands: Drain SPD 2 1/2d6, Area Of Effect (6" Cone; +1) (50 Active Points); Requires A Power Skill: Bele'cor Style Roll (-1/2), IAF (Mundane-looking Jeweled Necklace; -1/2), Gestures (Requires both hands; -1/2), Incantations (-1/4) (uses End Reserve)

1u 4) Bolts of Deep Cold: Energy Blast 8d6 (vs. ED) (40 Active Points); Requires A Power Skill: Bele'cor Style Roll (-1/2), IAF (Mundane-looking Jeweled Necklace; -1/2), Gestures (Requires both hands; -1/2), Incantations (-1/4) (uses End Reserve)

2u 5) Ice Wall: Force Wall (8 PD/7 ED; 6" long and 1" tall) (48 Active Points); Requires A Power Skill: Bele'cor Style Roll (-1/2), IAF (Mundane-looking Jeweled Necklace; -1/2), Gestures (Requires both hands; -1/2), Incantations (-1/4) (uses End Reserve)

7 Magic Ice Armor: Force Field (8 PD/8 ED) (16 Active Points); Gestures (Requires both hands; -1/2), IAF (Mundane Necklace; -1/2), Incantations (-1/4) (uses End Reserve)

19 Endurance Reserve (95 END, 10 REC) (19 Active Points)

Powers Cost: 53

 

 

Cost Skill

3 Bureaucratics: Bele'cor Hierarchy 13- [Notes: I know how to jump through hoops...]

3 Tactics 13- [Notes: Using Spells in an effective manner]

3 Scholar

2 1) KS: Arcane And Occult Lore (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 13-

2 2) KS: Bele'cor Style Of Magic (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 13-

2 3) KS: Herbs (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 13-

2 4) KS: Legends And Lore (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 13-

2 5) KS: Magic in General (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 13-

2 6) KS: Mythology (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 13-

3 Conversation 13- [Notes: You just gave me much more information than I think you wanted to]

3 Interrogation 13- [Notes: Ice Magic can be very scary when properly applied]

3 Shadowing 13- [Notes: Being Shady and Skulking in the shadows is what I do; That and do magicy... stuff]

3 Stealth 12- [Notes: Being Shady and Skulking in the shadows is what I do; That and do magicy... stuff]

3 Streetwise 13- [Notes: Being Shady and Skulking in the shadows is what I do; That and do magicy... stuff]

3 Seduction 13-

3 PS: Magic-using Adventurer (INT-based) 13-

9 Power: Bele'cor Style (INT-based) 16- [Notes: I'm a natural bele'cor]

8 +2 Magic Spells [Notes: Bele'cor Versitility- Applies to OCV and DCV of Spells]

 

Everyman Skills (Pg. 84 Fantasy Hero)

0 1) Acting 8-

0 2) Climbing 8-

0 3) Concealment 8-

0 4) Deduction 8-

0 5) AK: The Country near the main city of Pulling the Fangs (I don't know the name for the region) (INT-based) 8-

0 6) Language (idiomatic) (4 Active Points)

0 7) Paramedics 8-

0 8) Persuasion 8-

0 9) PS: Shop-keeping (Custom Adder) 11-

Skills Cost: 59

 

Cost Perk

5 Money: Well Off [Notes: Lending out magic as services tends to pay well.]

15 Contact: Bele'cor Leadership (Contact has access to major institutions, Contact has very useful Skills or resources), Organization Contact (x3) (15 Active Points) 11- [Notes: You know sometimes when I ask my superiors for information sometimes they actually answer, that can be kinda nice... Sometimes,]

2 Reputation: Knowledable Matieran-user (A small to medium sized group) 14-, +2/+2d6 [Notes: Being known as a Powerful Magician does help when getting business]

3 Access

Perks Cost: 25

 

Cost Talent

1 Resistance (1 point)

15 Skill Master (+3 with all Skills based on [iNT])

4 Speed Reading (x10)

Talents Cost: 20

 

Cost Equipment (Equipment costs do not actually figure in Total Cost. They are included here for reference only.)

2 Sp Knife: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1/2d6 (1d6 w/STR) (vs. ED) (10 Active Points); Independent (-2), OAF (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4) (uses Personal END)

3 Sp Torches: Sight Group Images 1" radius, +/-1 to PER Rolls (13 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses almost all of its effectiveness (Only to create Light; -2), 4 Charges (-1)

1 Sp Robes: Armor (2 PD/2 ED) (6 Active Points); Independent (-2), OAF (-1)

Total Character Cost: 200

 

Pts. Disadvantage

10 Distinctive Features: Bele'cor style Metieran (Not Concealable; Always Noticed and Causes Major Reaction; Detectable By Uncommonly-Used Senses (Mage-Sight, Ability to see magical Auras,etc...); Not Distinctive In Some Cultures)

5 Hunted: Bounty On head; Various Bounty Hunters 8- (As Pow; Limited Geographical Area; Harshly Punish) [Notes: Has bounty on head for not following through on a deal to gain a Bele'cor Scroll, Bounty given when it was revealed that her client, had with-held information from her about the mission and to his true identity, (He was a crime-boss and despite returning the pay, he put a bounty on her head, preferring not to do the hard work himself.)]

15 Hunted: The Guild of the Bele'cor Metierans 8- (Mo Pow; NCI; PC has a Public ID or is otherwise very easy to find; Watching) [Notes: The guild which Soor belongs to keeps an eye on her through various magical means every so often, to make sure that he is following the orders of the guild and that he is keeping his behavior in check.]

0 Normal Characteristic Maxima

10 Psychological Limitation: Kinda Selfish, caring more about her own way of doing things but she does care about other's but she cares about herself first. (Common; Moderate)

15 Psychological Limitation: Craves Knowledge (Common; Strong)

10 Psychological Limitation: Dislikes rules, but tries to do the right thing according to both her own conscience while not going against the laws set in place. (Common; Moderate)

10 Reputation: (Has bounty on head in the under-world), 11- (Extreme; Known Only To A Small Group) [Notes: Extreme is the fact that bounty-hunters are the type who will be seeing this Limitation, and same thing for small group, ie. Only those who see the bounty signs, are bounty hunters who live on the shady side of life]

10 Rivalry: Professional (Other Magic Users), Rival is Significantly More Powerful (Group), Seek to Outdo, Embarrass, or Humiliate Rival, Rival Unaware of Rivalry

10 Social Limitation: Thinks of her own benefits first (Frequently; Minor)

5 Social Limitation: Often speaks in ways that non-magic user's don't understand (Frequently; Minor; Not Limiting In Some Cultures)

Disadvantage Points: 100

Base Points: 100

Experience Required: 0

Total Experience Available: 0

Experience Unspent: 0

 

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Help with an Ineffective Ice Mage...

 

I think the acrimonious thread has probably scared him off.

 

I was the one who mentioned that he had no non-gimmicked powers. He has 2 autofire spells, A SPD drain, A force Wall, Entangle, Flash, Flight and a FF of ice.

 

I'm looking at the revised version on Post 12 - I see one autofire and one Uncontrolled.

 

The FW' date=' Entangle and Flash are great abilities for controlling a battle. I still recommend having one attack power that has no advantages on it except perhaps reduced endurance. Just to have a utility attack power that you can rely on that doesn't take a bazillion end from this Endurance Reserve.[/quote']

 

I completely agree he should buy a simple straightforward attack. This is useful in any case, and even more so with only two PC's. With half a dozen, he can move from target to target as support, but with two he's going to need to take down opponents himself on occasion.

 

The Autofire attacks are going to cost 5 end per shot and it's a 5 shot AF so he's burning 25 end a phase just to use those powers. (15 if he goes to 3 shot). With a OCV of 6 with no skill levels he will hit DCV 3s on average 2 shots per phase and everyone else maybe 1x but probably less. So it's not the most efficient build.

 

His autofire is 3 shot - the first version was 5 shot, looking at it. This actually worsens the "direct damage" issue, since both direct damage abilities sacrifice immediate punch for multiple hits (autofire and Uncontrolled ), making them use considerable END.

 

BTW most all of his spells cost 5end/Phase so he's burning 10 end a Turn (inc Post Seg12 Recovery)assuming he doesn't use the end hungry autofire attacks.

 

He drops them to half END but 62 AP in the revision, so I used 6 END, and he'd burn 14 END a turn after recover. That's enough to go full out with a 4 SPD for over a minute. [ASIDE: Your rewrite indicates all his spells use personal END, which I assume is an error.]

 

Combat Spellcasting gives him +3 DCV when he is casting spells. Though perhaps turning that into +2 levels with Magic would give him flexability. Giving the character the ability to actually hit with their spells or to go defensive.

 

OK,Combat Spellcasting is +3 DCV, and he has +3 levels with Magic (3 point skill levels). I'd ditch Combat Spellcasting for 4 more 3 point levels if the GM is allowing that - he can have +4 DCV casting spells if he never uses the levels for OCV or added damage. A 13 DCV with a 6 OCV, or a 13 OCV with a 6 DCV, or anything in between...that Autofire looks a lot more promising unless the opponent has high defense. In which case, 7 OCV, 6 DCV and +3 Damage Classes looks pretty good.

[Tasha]

Re: Help with an Ineffective Ice Mage...

 

Yeah the rewrite is in error. I always forget to change that in HD. I'll fix it and repost the corrected version

 

Tasha

 

I could have sworn that the Normal Attack WAS Autofire as well. Perhaps he changed it. Though 4d6 is pretty ignorable as an attack. Not worth the end spent keeping the thing running.