Making sense of Senses

[nexus]

This is area where I'm foggy when it comes to senses. Just what is the difference between a Discriminatory sense and an Analytical sense in terms of what information they provide? This gets particularly when human senses are described as being somewhat Discriminatory by default but can be more so by purchases the modifier outright and Analytical can then be purchased on top of that. What exactly changes when "full" Discriminatory is purchased for regular and what's the difference between Discriminatory and Analytical overall?

 

Here's how I understand it

 

If I get Detect: Unobtanium the information is simple and binary. Is there Unobtanium within my perception range with maybe a vague indication of direction

 

If I get Discriminatory I get more information: a more specific direction, possibly rough distance, approximate amount of the substance in question, if there's one or more deposits, etc.

 

With Analytical the information is precise. I know exactly how far away, the exact amounts including number and size of deposits, information about purity, irregularities and other relevant data.

 

With all this being subject to the margin of success on my perception roll.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Making sense of Senses

 

I believe that location information (range/direction) is seperate from the rest of the information you get from a Detect/Sense. Mainly because that would seem to veer into whether the detect/sense is bought with Targeting or Not, and Ranged or Not.

 

IIRC, it is possible to build a Sense that is Analytical and Ranged, yet non-Targeting.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Making sense of Senses

 

Sounds like a decent view. IMO it's up to the GM to make the distinction, and there's no clear guideline (though there are a few examples to give you an idea; and for all I know TUS or something might go into more depth). So make of it what you will, and have fun with it!

[secretID]

Re: Making sense of Senses

 

That's not the way I see it. I think of direction and distance being functions only of Ranged and Targeting, as was said. With any Ranged Detect, I would expect a good idea of where it is, just not quite good enough for targeting except perhaps with an AoE.

 

I think Analytical doesn't work very well with some detects, say Detect Air, or the example you gave, because there's just not that much info to be gained.

 

I think of them this way, with the example of Detect Magic (Ranged):

 

Detect - there's magic over there

 

Discriminatory - there's a force wall over there

 

Analytical - there's a 10 PD, 10 ED, invisible force wall with a focus lim over there

[nexus]

Re: Making sense of Senses

 

I always looked at Ranged and Targeting as increasing the functionality of the sense not necessarily conveying anymore information. Ranged just expands the functional reach of the sense beyond the character touch (or immediate hex really) and Targeting means that, for whatever reason a successful Perception roll with this Sense allows full of use of CV against the subject or use of effects that require such a condition.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Making sense of Senses

 

Detect Air - Incantations (Several Rapid Deep Breaths; -1/4)

[ghost-angel]

Re: Making sense of Senses

 

Detect Air - there is some, I can breathe (everyone kinda gets this for free)

 

Discriminatory - There is clean air, I have no troubles with it, we aren't running out.

 

Analytical - I know the chemical composition of this air

 

 

And like any form of sense - Knowledge on the subject is also paramount to interpreting what you have sensed.

[nexus]

Re: Making sense of Senses

 

Detect Air - there is some, I can breathe (everyone kinda gets this for free)

 

Discriminatory - There is clean air, I have no troubles with it, we aren't running out.

 

Analytical - I know the chemical composition of this air

 

 

And like any form of sense - Knowledge on the subject is also paramount to interpreting what you have sensed.

 

I like to emphasize that last point.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Making sense of Senses

 

Detect Air - Incantations (Several Rapid Deep Breaths; -1/4)

 

RSR: Athletics roll; Side Effects: hyperventilation (Stun damage)

[Manic Typist]

Re: Making sense of Senses

 

Detect Air - there is some, I can breathe (everyone kinda gets this for free)

 

Discriminatory - There is clean air, I have no troubles with it, we aren't running out.

 

Analytical - I know the chemical composition of this air

 

 

And like any form of sense - Knowledge on the subject is also paramount to interpreting what you have sensed.

 

...what a great, simple, straightforward explanation of the differences. Repworthy.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Making sense of Senses

 

Discriminatory - There is clean air, I have no troubles with it, we aren't running out.

 

Analytical - I know the chemical composition of this air

 

Okay, Mr. Smarty Pants. Which level tells you how many people have broken wind and how many times in the room within the past hour?

[Vondy]

Re: Making sense of Senses

 

Okay' date=' Mr. Smarty Pants. Which level tells you how many people have broken wind and how many times in the room within the past hour? [/quote']

 

Add "Rapid."

[Utech]

Re: Making sense of Senses

 

I often think of them this way:

 

Detect: You know if something is there or not there.

• a light detector that turns outdoor lights on when the amount of sunlight dips below a given threshold
  
• a movement detector that sounds an alarm when something moves through its field of detection
  
• a metal detector that beeps when you pass it over buried treasure (or bottle caps) on the beach
  

Discriminatory: You get enough information to compare and make judgments.

 

• An X-ray machine or CT scanner that allows us to monitor the progress of cancer in a patient's lungs and helps determine what sort of treatment is appropriate.
  
• A digital camera that can locate human faces in its field of view, then use that information to optimize settings before a picture is taken.
  
• A voice stress analyzer that suggests when someone is likely lying and likely telling the truth. The machine automatically flags likely lies and associates them with the prompting question.
  

 

Analyze: You get the sort of very specific information we generally associate with complex, highly technical testing.

 

• A mass spectrometer (perhaps in tandem with gas chromatography, liquid chromatography, and/or ion mobility spectrometry) tells us the precise elemental composition of a molecule.
  
• An arson investigator pokes around after a fire and can quickly tell that the fire was purposefully set, where it started, and how it spread. He makes an educated guess as to what accelerant was used. Laboratory analysis of certain items he bags tells us exactly which accelerant was used (a particular brand of paint thinner) and gives the arson investigator another lead to run down.
  
• Through DNA analysis we learn the precise genetic code of a nasty flu virus and now have clues as to how to attack it. Moreover, we learn that the code seems to have been manipulated. A particular sequence was spliced in...
  

[SteveZilla]

Re: Making sense of Senses

 

Detect Air - there is some, I can breathe (everyone kinda gets this for free)

 

Discriminatory - There is clean air, I have no troubles with it, we aren't running out.

 

Analytical - I know the chemical composition of this air

 

And like any form of sense - Knowledge on the subject is also paramount to interpreting what you have sensed.

 

I'd add a "Semi Disscriminatory" level in there to match that of Normal Sight & Hearing, and assign the "There is clean air, I have no troubles with it, we aren't running out." to it.

 

For full Discriminatory I would add able to tell approximate barometric pressure and humidity. For Analytical you get those within a couple of points, if not precisely. Also air currents would be indicated, major ones (breeze/wind) for just the Detect, minor ones (air conditioning/chimney effect) for Discriminatory, and subtle ones* for Analytical.

 

*Though this would not give precise locations of things causing such currents as that would veer into Targeting territory.

[secretID]

Re: Making sense of Senses

 

Detect Air - there is some, I can breathe (everyone kinda gets this for free)

 

Discriminatory - There is clean air, I have no troubles with it, we aren't running out.

 

Analytical - I know the chemical composition of this air

That illustrates where I was going with the limited info. Once you detect "air," you've already analyzed something to a pretty good degree - if it's "air," its chemical composition is within a small range. Put another way, as you laid it out, what does the jump from Discriminatory to Analytical get you?

 

I find interesting this range in interpretation of when and how location information is acquired. Looking at examples given here (like the motion detector), I'm now torn about whether I would give any location info without Discrim. or Targeting. Then again, if a human had Detect Motion-Ranged, it would be pretty strange if it didn't give ANY location info.

 

I would definitely give exact location info with Targeting. It doesn't feel right to me to tie location info to Discrim/Analytical, but it seems strange to deny any location info w/o targeting. I'll probably stick with what I said first - any ranged sense gets pretty good location info.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Making sense of Senses

 

That illustrates where I was going with the limited info. Once you detect "air," you've already analyzed something to a pretty good degree - if it's "air," its chemical composition is within a small range.

 

Except it's not, if you think about it. Sure, we have a book definition of air that has a predetermined list of molecules and compounds... but that doesn't tell me what I'm smelling when I walk into a dingy bar.

 

But in this case, you can identify trace elements, things that vary based on location. So, the chemical composition of faint perfumes, the unique makeup of an explosive used recently in the area, etc.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Making sense of Senses

 

That illustrates where I was going with the limited info. Once you detect "air," you've already analyzed something to a pretty good degree - if it's "air," its chemical composition is within a small range. Put another way, as you laid it out, what does the jump from Discriminatory to Analytical get you?

 

I find interesting this range in interpretation of when and how location information is acquired. Looking at examples given here (like the motion detector), I'm now torn about whether I would give any location info without Discrim. or Targeting. Then again, if a human had Detect Motion-Ranged, it would be pretty strange if it didn't give ANY location info.

 

I would definitely give exact location info with Targeting. It doesn't feel right to me to tie location info to Discrim/Analytical, but it seems strange to deny any location info w/o targeting. I'll probably stick with what I said first - any ranged sense gets pretty good location info.

 

Tank Air, Purified Air, and Pure Air have a limited range.

 

The air outside has an extremely wide range of chemical make-ups.

 

And quite frankly - getting stuck on the details of that one example to illustrate the idea of Normal/Discriminatory/Analytical is pointless.

 

Just look at the levels of detail provided and apply them to any Sense.

[secretID]

Re: Making sense of Senses

 

Except it's not, if you think about it. Sure, we have a book definition of air that has a predetermined list of molecules and compounds... but that doesn't tell me what I'm smelling when I walk into a dingy bar.

 

But in this case, you can identify trace elements, things that vary based on location. So, the chemical composition of faint perfumes, the unique makeup of an explosive used recently in the area, etc.

Sort of. There's a question of to what degree the impurities are part of "air." If the gas were composed entirely of the impurities/pollution/whatever, then no air would be detected. As a practical matter, I'm sure I would give that info as a GM, but I think it highlights the difference between Detect Air and, say, Detect Gasses.

 

And quite frankly - getting stuck on the details of that one example to illustrate the idea of Normal/Discriminatory/Analytical is pointless.

Others seem interested in using it as an example. I don't think it works very well, b/c I don't think Analytical makes much sense with a Detect with a narrow definition. That's why I gave the Detect Magic example.

 

Detect Gasses also works well:

- gasses are present

- oxygen, CO2, water vapor, etc. are present

- those things are present in specific quantities/proportion

 

Detect Dragons:

- dragons are present

- dragons are present in particular type and number

- dragons are present in partiular number and very particular type (name, certain stats)

 

Detect Life:

- life is present

- animal life is present - maybe specific animal type, if it's a familiar animal

- animal type, and possibly things like health of the animal?

 

Detect Lies is a little tricky:

- lie happened in that last monologue

- this particular part of the statement was a lie

- that was a lie b/c [] - i.e., what the truth is...?

 

But Detect Iron?:

- iron is present

- iron is present in particular amount

- ? for analytical

 

Detect Visible Light:

- light is present

- light is present at particular brightness

- ? for analytical - exact color?

 

That's why Analytical doesn't make a lot of sense to me with certain Detects, specifically, Detects of very specific things.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Making sense of Senses

 

Detect Iron Analytical: Purity of Iron Ore, what other compounds are mixed with it, size of the Iron Deposit specifically.

 

Detect Visible Light: specific shades, intensity, will give CMYK and/or RGB values.

 

Also remember - Analytical be default can and should take extra time to discern. Analytical could be used to simulate very precise lab equipment, which can take an hour to analyze whatever you're studying.

 

You can use the three levels for bad/good/excellent quality Equipment for example.

 

No matter how long you examine something with good equipment you will never get the kind of information you will with Excellent equipment.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Making sense of Senses

 

Analyze: You get the sort of very specific information we generally associate with complex, highly technical testing.

 

• A mass spectrometer (perhaps in tandem with gas chromatography, liquid chromatography, and/or ion mobility spectrometry) tells us the precise elemental composition of a molecule.
  
• An arson investigator pokes around after a fire and can quickly tell that the fire was purposefully set, where it started, and how it spread. He makes an educated guess as to what accelerant was used. Laboratory analysis of certain items he bags tells us exactly which accelerant was used (a particular brand of paint thinner) and gives the arson investigator another lead to run down.
  
• Through DNA analysis we learn the precise genetic code of a nasty flu virus and now have clues as to how to attack it. Moreover, we learn that the code seems to have been manipulated. A particular sequence was spliced in...
  

 

Ah, see this is where I start to have a problem with things. Senses, no matter when Adders have been bought, should never substitute for the good use of a Skill IMO. They might give you a lot of input, but they shouldn't give you the conclusions along with the input. I would never allow a simple Sense to give that arson investigator all of that information. For all of that I would require Criminology, Professional Skills (e.g. firefighter or arson investigator), Science Skills, and possibly Deduction. If those Skills weren't available, they'd have to collect what evidence they could (probably requiring at least Criminology or the PS) and hope that they have enough for others to make use of such Skills.

 

Of course, in a campaign where I want to gloss over the details and possibly de-emphasize Skills (not something I do often), I might allow a subset of those or possibly even a closely related Skill. But I don't think it should ever simply be the province of a Sense alone. Likewise for the DNA analysis. You might get a genetic code, but all the rest is up to knowledge and skill, not sensory data. I don't have a problem with the spectrometer, but at least a Science Skill might be necessary to really know what the input means.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Making sense of Senses

 

Well - what ARE those skills.

 

Many, if not all, of the Skill you mentioned require Equipment to use. Especially Professional Skills, Science Skills, and things like Forensics and Criminology.

 

There are modifiers for equipment you're using - but most of the time we don't build that equipment, just decide the level.

 

But because this is Hero we can actually go and build all that equipment if we want to. Thus, the various Detects and the Enhanced Senses Adders come into play to build exactly what it is you're accomplishing with that Skill.

 

If you're playing CSI Hero it could very well be that you want to build out the equipment and use that Perception Roll as a Complimentary Roll to the Characters Forensics, Criminology, or PS: Rolls.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Making sense of Senses

 

Well - what ARE those skills.

 

Many, if not all, of the Skill you mentioned require Equipment to use. Especially Professional Skills, Science Skills, and things like Forensics and Criminology.

 

There are modifiers for equipment you're using - but most of the time we don't build that equipment, just decide the level.

 

But because this is Hero we can actually go and build all that equipment if we want to. Thus, the various Detects and the Enhanced Senses Adders come into play to build exactly what it is you're accomplishing with that Skill.

 

If you're playing CSI Hero it could very well be that you want to build out the equipment and use that Perception Roll as a Complimentary Roll to the Characters Forensics, Criminology, or PS: Rolls.

 

Oh, I agree. What I'm saying is that the Senses might be necessary to perform such analysis, but when you are getting to that level of complexity and deduction, they are not sufficient. Someone with the Senses or (appropriate sense-related) equipment might be able to gather the data, but it'd also take Skills to get final results.

 

If I looked at an unusual looking bird, I might well be able to record how big it is, the coloration of its plumage, what its song sounds like, and even such tiny details as its average heart rate and glide ratio. But it'd take some knowledge of birds to know what species it is, or (failing that or if it is an unknown species) similar knowledge and scientific method to figure out what known species it is closely related to, its likely evolutionary history, what caused it to develop a certain survival behavior, what its likely diet and habitat are (if no direct data has been collected to that effect; a place where Senses might actually substitute), etc. Even if I could sample its DNA by looking at it, it might take some Skill to analyze how similar that DNA is to other known species.

 

Likewise, it might occasionally take some Skill to know what input to pay attention to and what data to collect.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Making sense of Senses

 

As I said much earlier in the thread - you still need the appropriate Knowledge Base to understand and use the information you have gained.

 

That doesn't preclude using the Skill to get the Useful or Pertinent Information from the Detects.

 

Take your Detect Birds: at the Analytical Level you could get it's DNA Makeup. That's useless information until you have an appropriate KS, SS or something other Skill to place that into the correct categories and identify the species.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Making sense of Senses

 

I think I disagree with what many people have said here. IMO, you should start with the real human senses and work from there:

 

Normal Human Sight is Ranged, Targeting, and Discriminatory. It's not partially Discriminatory, it's fully Dsicriminatory. By sight alone, you can distinguish (or discriminate) between two people even if they have the same hair and eye color and the same height and weight. You can tell by sight a right hand glove from a left hand glove, a flat picture of a thing from the actual thing in three dimentions, Michael Jackson at 25 from Michael Jackson at 50. When your friend gets a haircut/new glasses/changes his clothes, you can easily identify the change, and you can still identify your friend despite the change.

 

Normal Human Hearing is Ranged and Discriminatory. You can easily tell the difference between a barking dog and a meowing cat. You can easily tell the difference between two people's voices. You can easily hear the difference between someone singing on key and someone singing off key, or between someone saying, "Hello" and someone saying "Yellow".

 

Normal Human Smelling is Ranged. Even though it's not Discriminatory, it still gives quite a bit of information, far beyond "There's a smell" and "There isn't a smell". You can distinguish between the smells of beef and pork, between onions and garlic, between tobacco smoke and marijuana smoke, between hand soap and household cleanser, etc. What you can't distinguish between with just the sense of smell is two people.

 

Dogs OTOH have Discriminatory Scent - they can discriminate between you and your neighbor by smell alone. And between two different dogs. Likewise they can tell by smell if a female dog is in heat or not.

 

A plain Detect or Sense ought to give a good amount of information, beyond just the presence or absence of a particular thing. It should give an aproximate location or direction, an intensity, and other basic qualities - analogous to what normal human sense of smell gives you. Without Discriminatory, you won't be able to absolutely identify the thing you're sensing, but may still be plenty of obvious differences between two examples of the thing.

 

The precise nature of what a Detect/Sense tells you can be worked out between the Player and the GM (preferably when the power is purchased, rather than during play). And likewise the additional information given when the Sense/Detect is Discriminatory, and when it has Analyze.

 

There are many different ways in which a sense might be discriminatory, or analytical. The player needs to define the way it works when he buys it (with the GM's approval, of course).

 

Range just allows you to sense beyond your hex. Targeting allows you to know the thing's precise location so you can target it with full CV.

 

Obi-Wan Kenobi has Detect The Force, Sense, MegaScale Range, but not Discriminatory - when Alderan was destroyed, he could sense the disturbance in the force, and could tell how massive it was, and that it was a destruction or "negative" change in the force as opposed to a positive one, but he didn't know precisely what it was.

 

Here's one possible example using "Detect Metal":

 

With no adders, the character can tell if he's in direct contact with metal, and he can probably tell if there's metal very close by (within a meter or so). (Without the Sense Adder, he has to use an action to do this.) He can tell the approximate location and direction (in fact it should probably be very precise since the sense has no range). He can tell the amount of metal, and probably even what kind of metal in some way. He can distinguish between iron and lead and gold and tin and silver and zinc and aluminum and copper. Certain rarer types of metals might be harder to distinguish, for example he might not be able to easily distingush between silver and platinum, or between lead and tungsten. He might be able to detect the metal in ore, the approximate amount and what kind. He can tell if the metal is rusted or tarnished. He can tell if the metal is in chunks or in leaf or wire or filings. The presence of certain kinds of metals, or metals in certain amounts might overwhelm his ability to sense other metals that may also be present, just like the strong smell of garlic might drown out subtler smells. If he finds a large chunk of iron that has some aluminum inside it, or is plated with silver, he might not be able to notice the aluminum or the silver.

 

I think that level is about analogous to what you get from Normal Smell.

 

With Discriminatory, the character can distiguish between all metals, can notice small amounts of metals within other metals, will know with greater precision how much metal is in an ore sample, can easily determine the quality of a metal, if it's been tempered, if it's pure, how good an alloy it is, maybe the metal's structural strength, if the metal is magnetized (and how much), and he can probably tell where the "edges" of the metal are, if there are hollow spaces inside, where the metal stops and rock or other substance begins. Assuming there's some differing quality to the metal, he should be able to tell the difference between a metal car part recently installed and one that's been used for a while, or one made by the original car manufacturer and a replacement part made by some other company.

 

With Analyze, the character can detect the precise composition of an alloy, any structural defects or weaknesses in a metal object, he can tell an authentic ancient gold coin from a forgery. He can tell when a mine has been "seeded". He might even be able to look at two samples of metal of the exact same composition and be able to tell if they came from the same place. He might be able to detect subtler treatments to the metal, like if they've been irradiated. He might be able to determine what a metal object was used for (given appropriate knowledge). He could give a very accurate evaluation of a metal weapon or other object.

 

Someday I will say up enough points to buy "Sense When My Post Has Become Too Long."

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Making sense of Senses

 

Detect Dog: There is a dog.

 

Discriminatory: There is a female collie.

 

Analyze: There is a 4-year-old spayed female collie with a mild flea infestation.