advantages on dispel

[CorpCommander]

I am thinking of putting an advantage on dispel. Instead of dispeling a particular power I'd like to be able to dispel all powers using a particular special effect. For example, dispel all fire powers. What would that be worth? +1?

[Jeff]

+2 advantage to affect all powers of a given special effect simultaneously (FREd, p. 99). +1 would get you four at a time, which, practically, may be about as good.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: advantages on dispel

 

Originally posted by CorpCommander

I am thinking of putting an advantage on dispel. Instead of dispeling a particular power I'd like to be able to dispel all powers using a particular special effect. For example, dispel all fire powers. What would that be worth? +1?

 

I believe it's the same advantage used for adjustment powers, but I don't recall the value and I don't have the book in front of me. I seem to have +2 stuck in my mind. I know it's +1/4 for any one power of a specific special effect. Isn't it +1/2 for any 2, +3/4 for any 4, +1 for any 8? "Any 8" would seem enough to be "all".

 

Anyone out there have the book open (or just know the answer - I bet Fantasy Hero afficianados know this off the top!))?

[CorpCommander]

Thanks

 

Thanks, that is what I was looking for. I assume you have to name the 4 powers for the +1 or no?

 

Pete

[CorpCommander]

Re: Thanks

 

Originally posted by CorpCommander

Thanks, that is what I was looking for. I assume you have to name the 4 powers for the +1 or no?

 

oops never mind, just realized that you don't have to name the particular power. Thanks again for the help.

[Jeff]

Re: Thanks

 

Originally posted by CorpCommander

Thanks, that is what I was looking for. I assume you have to name the 4 powers for the +1 or no?

 

Pete

You wouldn't have to name them when you're buying the power, anyway. I think you'd have to have some way to pick them out when you're using it; I wouldn't think you'd need to be able to designate the particular game-mechanical power at the bottom.

[CorpCommander]

Here is another question

 

Instead of dispelling a power an opponent has, can I dispel the effect once they have used it?

 

For example, lets say my friend the rogue was caught trying to steal a dragon's egg from the wizard and the wizard Transformed the rogue into a frog. Can I dispel the effect of the transform and turn the thief back to normal?

 

Can I set up a trigger such that when I am attacked by a magic spell the dispel goes off and attempts to "shoot down" the offensive spell?

 

I think I can looking at the book. I believe that I could wake up in the morning, spend the END on the triggered dispel then wander about town. When the wizard finds out I un-polymorphed the rogue and decides to ambush me with his Fireball spell the trigger kicks off and I attempt to dispell the fireball before it hits me. Whether I am successful or not, I would need to spend the END again to reset the trigger.

 

If Trigger is not appropriate, could I instead abort and dispel as a defensive action? If you were the GM would you allow this?

 

I don't think that is abusive but I am also not sure if its against the spirit of the rules. It doesn't appear to be against the letter of the rules.

 

Thanks

[eepjr24]

Re: Here is another question

 

Originally posted by CorpCommander

Instead of dispelling a power an opponent has, can I dispel the effect once they have used it?

 

For example, lets say my friend the rogue was caught trying to steal a dragon's egg from the wizard and the wizard Transformed the rogue into a frog. Can I dispel the effect of the transform and turn the thief back to normal?

 

In general, no. This is per reading multiple questions to Steve in the rules forum. The exceptions I have seen are: 1) The transform lists dispel as one of the healing methods. 2) The effect being dispelled is a power with the limitation "Gradual Effect". In this case, you can dispell any damage or effect that has not yet occured.

 

Can I set up a trigger such that when I am attacked by a magic spell the dispel goes off and attempts to "shoot down" the offensive spell?

 

I think I can looking at the book. I believe that I could wake up in the morning, spend the END on the triggered dispel then wander about town. When the wizard finds out I un-polymorphed the rogue and decides to ambush me with his Fireball spell the trigger kicks off and I attempt to dispell the fireball before it hits me. Whether I am successful or not, I would need to spend the END again to reset the trigger.

Trigger is one possible solution, although even at the -1/2 level it can be difficult to set a trigger that will do what you want. In the above example, if you did not see the spell coming you would most likely get pretty crispy (must be able to sense it for trigger to work).

 

If Trigger is not appropriate, could I instead abort and dispel as a defensive action? If you were the GM would you allow this?

 

Yes, in general I would allow you to abort to a dispell, since it is a purely defensive action. I would also recommend you look into Delayed Effect as another option.

 

I don't think that is abusive but I am also not sure if its against the spirit of the rules. It doesn't appear to be against the letter of the rules.

Thanks

 

- Ernie

[badger3k]

Re: Here is another question

 

Originally posted by CorpCommander

Instead of dispelling a power an opponent has, can I dispel the effect once they have used it?

 

For example, lets say my friend the rogue was caught trying to steal a dragon's egg from the wizard and the wizard Transformed the rogue into a frog. Can I dispel the effect of the transform and turn the thief back to normal?

 

Can I set up a trigger such that when I am attacked by a magic spell the dispel goes off and attempts to "shoot down" the offensive spell?

 

I think I can looking at the book. I believe that I could wake up in the morning, spend the END on the triggered dispel then wander about town. When the wizard finds out I un-polymorphed the rogue and decides to ambush me with his Fireball spell the trigger kicks off and I attempt to dispell the fireball before it hits me. Whether I am successful or not, I would need to spend the END again to reset the trigger.

 

If Trigger is not appropriate, could I instead abort and dispel as a defensive action? If you were the GM would you allow this?

 

I don't think that is abusive but I am also not sure if its against the spirit of the rules. It doesn't appear to be against the letter of the rules.

 

Thanks

 

Trigger would probably be the way to go - according to FRED p 99 - you have to have a held action to attack an incoming power - so no abort that way. You may be able to play with it, though. Limitations like unconscious or only to target incoming spells (i.e reflex action) may work, although a damage shield might be the better way for that . I thought there was something on reducing the time of use - letting it be cast as an abort, but I can't find anything like it.

[CorpCommander]

In general, no. This is per reading multiple questions to Steve in the rules forum. The exceptions I have seen are: 1) The transform lists dispel as one of the healing methods. 2) The effect being dispelled is a power with the limitation "Gradual Effect". In this case, you can dispell any damage or effect that has not yet occured.

 

Ok - that makes sense. Clearly in the world I am GMing I'd have to state that all powers bought with the special effect Magic can be dispelled. In rereading PP. 99-100 I did see that Steve explicity states Dispel can be used on incoming attacks but must have a held action to do this. He also states it must apply to the type of attack. So dispel magic won't work aganinst an EB if the special effect is Mighty Normal Bow.

 

I also note that if you dispel a power in a character they can turn it right back on. This seems kind of useless. If on segment 12 you go before they do and dispel their power they can use it right away unless there is preperation. I suppose Continuous is the way to go with that if you want the power shutdown for more than just your part of the segment. In fact without continuous I don't see how it is at all useful against most powers.

 

To dispel a framework I am guessing you need to dispel all of its active points along with all of the active points of all the things in the frame work. (Read:Not bloody likely.)

 

The limitations you pointed out on trigger are useful and I had not thought of. Certainly being aware of the attack is important. With enhanced senses you can get 360 degrees enhanced arc of perception with one sense. It isn't book legal but I can see that being applied here as well.

 

This has been interesting. I am finding dispel is much weaker than I had originally thought.

[badger3k]

Not sure if this helps - an area effect suppress might also be effective (especially if you add sticky or something). Maybe not cost effective, but it might do what you intended - it has a lot of the same limitations though. You could try to go with a "magical danger sense" - buy it only to detect incoming spells (a -1/4 to -1/2 limitation depending on the prevalence of magic in your world).

 

I'd have to make a call on the transform - if the transform was magic based then a magic dispel would probably be an automatically-applied healing (it is more appropriate for most spells). High-powered curses, geases, basilisk gazes and the like probably would not be dispellable like that (it all depends on the source).

 

edit- by automatically applied healing, I mean that that is one way to recover, not that it is automatic. Whether it was the only recovery, that depends on the concept

[CorpCommander]

Thanks

 

Thnks Badger,that is useful. I am the GM but I am "new" to Hero. By that I mean I haven't run in or run a Hero game since 1991. However it is slowly all coming back to me know. The best thing about this website is the community is very sophisticated and I must say this has been fantastic at getting me back over the learning curve. Hero is not like riding a bike. If you leave the system for a long time you do have to relearn how to ride it!

 

It's given me a lot to think about. It is obvious it isn't a rules problem - its simply the rules allow great flexibility and you have to know when to apply that flexibility and when to limit it.

 

Thanks to everyone.

[Farkling]

We had a previous discussion thread about Dispel.

 

Short versaion::

Though it requires a held action, the Dispel automatically hits the incoming power...no attack roll necessary.

 

There were a few GM's that ruled they would allow an abort to a Dispel...under attack conditions it IS a defensive power, and the rules state you can abort to a defensive power.

 

Under those conditions, a few of us felt the Dispel should be rolled as a block.

 

There's some options...

 

And as a footnote...if the framework is an Elemental Control, Dispel IS an Adjustment power, right? So it is effectively doubled in strength...it hits the reserve and the powers...so concieveably, I would gues that would lead to SOME powers being shut down and some being unaffected if the character was near the breakpoint on the Dispel

[Jeff]

Originally posted by CorpCommander

I also note that if you dispel a power in a character they can turn it right back on. This seems kind of useless. If on segment 12 you go before they do and dispel their power they can use it right away unless there is preperation. I suppose Continuous is the way to go with that if you want the power shutdown for more than just your part of the segment. In fact without continuous I don't see how it is at all useful against most powers....

 

This has been interesting. I am finding dispel is much weaker than I had originally thought.

In fantasy campaigns particularly - the natural home for conventional usage of Dispel - preparation is the rule, rather than the exception. You'll find lots of extra time, Concentration, Gestures, Incantations, RSR (possibly with Side Effects), expendible Foci, and so on for constant powers almost as a matter of course. Transforms will include Dispelling them among their healing conditions almost universally. Uncontrolled and Triggered effects leave magic hanging around when the caster isn't even around any more, so there's no worry about it popping right back up immediately anyway, quite apart from how difficult reactivating it is likely to be.

 

Even outside fantasy campaigns, Dispel can be good for foci-busting and as part of a one-two punch, with the second effect coming in before the target's next phase. It's not hard to Dispel a target's Flash or Power Defense, for instance, giving them a moment of vulnerability to Flashes or various Drains, supplied either by a teammate ready for the maneuver or your next phase and a multipower realocation. You might want to hold a phase so you can get the other off in the next segment if you're doing it yourself. This sort of thing would be most useful in a team fighting aagainst very powerful single opponents against whom just piling on STUN is less than reliably successful.

 

Lastly, it's 3 points per die, so it's per-die effectiveness is going to be modest.

[CorpCommander]

Originally posted by Jeff

It's not hard to Dispel a target's Flash or Power Defense, for instance, giving them a moment of vulnerability to Flashes or various Drains, supplied either by a teammate ready for the maneuver or your next phase and a multipower realocation.

 

Hmmm now that is interesting! I hadn't thought of that! That does make it more useful.

 

I think I also will allow abort to defensive dispel. It feels right. It fits in with my preconcieved notions of how it should work in the world I am running and ads more of a dueling aspect to spellcraft.

 

The implications of dispel vs. foci are also interesting.

 

Thanks

[TheEmerged]

Originally posted by CorpCommander

Hmmm now that is interesting! I hadn't thought of that! That does make it more useful.

 

I think I also will allow abort to defensive dispel. It feels right. It fits in with my preconcieved notions of how it should work in the world I am running and ads more of a dueling aspect to spellcraft.

 

The implications of dispel vs. foci are also interesting.

 

Thanks

 

I'm pretty sure you have to dispel everything in the foci for that to work.

 

Dispel is also pretty effective against END Reserves, even if you make it work against the "real" END cost of 2 END for 1 pt instead of the 10 END for 1 pt cost of the Reserve power. Ordinarily you can't Dispel an attribute -- but END Reserve is a power

 

RE: Flash and Power Defense. Yeah it's easy -- too easy in my opinion. This is one reason I place Dispel on the list of Adjustment Powers, so it's affected by the rule halving the effect of adjustment powers against Defensive powers (to Dispel 15 Flash Defense, I require 30 pts of Dispel result instead of 15).

[prestidigitator]

Trigger: I would probably allow the Trigger. However, it seems that, for Dispels which can work against different types of Power, you would have to specify the Power it will work against when you set up the Trigger (thus, you would have to buy it at the +2 level if you wanted it to work against the first incoming spell). Also, as Trigger says, you can buy unusual senses--such as a Detect Magic Sense--and apply a big Limitation for things you could not normally sense.

 

Transform: It seems to me that Dispel would work. It is Dispel's job to cencel existing effects (except for the clause that it can be used defensively). Of course, Transforms tend to be pretty powerful, and there's no reason they can't take Difficult to Dispel (which pretty much settles the matter).

 

Foci: Remember that Unbreakable ones effectively have a huge number of active points for purposes of Dispel (is it times 25? I don't know. The book isn't in front of me).

 

Frameworks: I would think it shouldn't be as hard to Dispel a power from a Framework as it is to Adjust it. After all, you aren't denying them use of the Power (or Framework); you are only turning it off temporarily.

 

Cost: Dispel is pretty cheap, but there are a lot of Powers, so it isn't all that powerful to buy Dispel without the Advantages that makes it work on a broader range of effects.

[CorpCommander]

The NPCOk here is my attempt at the sorcerous necromantic 15 year old girl that kicks holy ass and has a defensive dispel. Any comments appreciated. The character here is NOT a good copy of the one in the Witchfire Trilogy D20 module. In fact this one is WAY more powerful. Alexia in Witchfire is about 10th level and as written up doesn't have quite a few of the things listed. Oddly, she is attributed several abilities in the module that are outside of her offical writeup. For example in the module she can turn air to stone (Form Stoneshape.) She is also attributed with powers capable of kicking down reinforced steel enclosures and breaking through major spell warded tombs. The offical write up has nothing so powerful and I assume the write up was for completeness and done as an afterthought. Clearly major hand waving by the author. In spite of that critisism I do highly recommend Witchfire - its one of the best written D20 modules I've had the pleasure of reading.Enjoy!(Many thanks to Killer Shrike for his template)

Combat Information Page Character Name: Alexia Cinannor Alternate Identities: The White Witch Player Name: NPC CHARACTERISTICS CHARACTER IMAGE Val Char Base Points Total Roll Notes 8 STR 10 -2 8 11- HTH Damage 1 1/2d6 END [2] 14 DEX 10 12 14 12- OCV 5 DCV 5 10 CON 10 0 10 11- 10 BODY 10 0 10 11- 18 INT 10 8 18 13- PER Roll 13- 14 EGO 10 8 14 12- ECV: 5 10 PRE 10 0 10 11- PRE Attack: 2d6 20 COM 10 5 20 13-                             8 PD 2 0 8   8 PD (6 rPD) 8 ED 2 0 8   8 ED (6 rED) 4 SPD 2.4 16 4   Phases: 3, 6, 9, 12 6 REC 4 4 6   20 END 20 0 20   30 STUN 19 11 30     6" Running 6 0 6"     2" Swimming 2 0 2"     1 1/2"/0 1/2"" Leaping 2 0 1 1/2" 62 Total Characteristics Points EXPERIENCE POINTS Total earned: 100 Spent: 100 Unspent: 0 Base Points: 125 Disad Points: 125 Total Points: 350 MOVEMENT Type Total Run (6) 6" [12" NC] Swim (2) 2" [4" NC] H. Leap (2") 1 1/2" V. Leap (1") 0 1/2" Flight 25" [50" NC] APPEARANCE Hair Color:  Black Eye Color:  Grey Height:  5' 5" Weight:  120 lbs Description:

DEFENSES Type Amount Notes Physical Defense 8 Current BODY: Res. Phys. Defense 6   Energy Defense 8 Current END: Res. Energy Defense 6   Mental Defense 11 Current STUN: Power Defense 0   COMBAT INFORMATION OCV: 5 DCV: 5   Combat Skill Levels: +3 On Sorcery Multipower COMBAT MANEUVERS Maneuver Phase OCV DCV Effect Block 1/2 +0 +0 Block, abort Brace 0 +2 1/2 +2 vs. Range Mod. Disarm 1/2 -2 +0 Can disarm Dodge 1/2 -- +3 Abort, vs. all attacks Grab 1/2 -1 -2 Grab two limbs Grab By 1/2 -3 -4 Move and Grab Haymaker 1/2* +0 -5 +4 DC attack damage Move By 1/2 -2 -2 STR/2 + v/5 Move Through 1/2 -v/5 -3 STR + v/3 Set 1 +1 +0 Ranged Attacks only Strike 1/2 +0 +0 STR or weapon COMBAT MODIFIERS Range 0-4 5-8 9-16 17-32 33-64 65-128 RMOD 0 -2 -4 -6 -8 -10

POWERS Cost  Power END 25 Mental Powers: Multipower, 25-point reserve 2u 1) Clairsentience (Sight Group And Normal Hearing) (25 Active Points) (uses END Reserve) 2 2u 2) Flash 8d6 (Mental Group) (24 Active Points) (uses END Reserve) 2 1u 3) Mind Scan 5d6 (25 Active Points); Neither Character nor Target Can Attack Through Link (-1), Stops Working If Mentalist Is Stunned (-1/2), Costs END To Maintain Full END Cost (-1/2) (uses END Reserve) 2 2u 4) Suppress Telepathy 2d6, Uncontrolled (+1/2), Continuous (+1) (25 Active Points) (uses END Reserve) 2 2u 5) Telepathy 5d6 (25 Active Points) (uses END Reserve) 2 7 Telepathy Reserve: Endurance Reserve (20 END, 5 REC) (7 Active Points) 8 +8 Mental Defense (11 points total) 100 Sorcery: Multipower, 100-point reserve 3u 1) Sense Magical Aura: Detect Magic 13-, Analyze, Discriminatory, Range, Sense, Targeting Sense, Tracking (35 Active Points) 3u 2) Flight 25", Combat Acceleration/Deceleration (+1/4) (62 Active Points); Extra Time Extra Segment (-1/2), Visible: Comet Trail (-1/4) (uses END Reserve) 6 2u 3) Shield of Life: Life Support , Eating: Character only has to eat once per week, Safe in High Pressure, Safe in High Radiation, Safe in Intense Cold, Safe in Intense Heat, Safe in Low Pressure/Vacuum, Self-Contained Breathing, Sleeping: Character only has to sleep 8 hours per year (22 Active Points); Activation Roll 15- (-1/4) 3u 4) Air to Stone: Transform 5d6 (Major) (75 Active Points); No Range: must be in ajacent hex (-1/2), Side Effects: 3d6 STR Drain (-1/2), Activation Roll 15- (-1/4) (uses Personal END) 7 3u 5) Magnetic Vortex: Energy Blast 10d6 (vs. ED), Armor Piercing x1 (+1/2), No Range Modifier (+1/2) (100 Active Points); Only vs. Metal Objects Power loses almost all of its effectiveness (-2) (uses END Reserve) 10 11m 6) Lightning: Energy Blast 20d6 (vs. ED) (100 Active Points); Beam (-1/4), No Knockback (-1/4), Cannot Be Used With Multiple-Power Attacks (-1/4) (uses END Reserve) 10 4u 7) Icy Grip: Entangle 5 1/2d6, 5 DEF, Area Of Effect Nonselective Target (6" Radius; +3/4) (96 Active Points); Vulnerable: Heat based attacks Common (-1/2), No Range (-1/2), Cannot Form Barriers (-1/4) (uses END Reserve) 10 2u 8) Invisibility to Sight Group, Normal Hearing (23 Active Points) (uses END Reserve) 2 10u 9) Dispel 15d6, Enhanced Arc of perception 360 sight, All Magic One At A Time (+1/4), Trigger on Magical Attack (+1/4), Cumulative (x1 max.) (+1/2) (100 Active Points) (uses Personal END) 10 3m 10) Summon 250-point, Amicable Slavishly Devoted (+1) (100 Active Points); Extra Time 20 Minutes (-2 1/2), Character May Take No Other Actions (-1/4), OAF Fragile Expendable (Focus: Full skeleton parts; Very Difficult to obtain new Focus; -1 3/4), Limited Power Only Skeletal/Zombie based undead (-1), Arrives Under Own Power (-1/2), Lockout Caster cannot use or maintain other spells (-1/2) (uses END Reserve) 10 15 Sorcery Reserve: Endurance Reserve (50 END, 10 REC) (15 Active Points) 208 Total Powers Cost EQUIPMENT Equipment END Tomb Seal Ward: Force Wall (9 PD/9 ED), Reduced Endurance 0 END (+1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (90 Active Points); OAF Immobile (Focus: Tomb; -2), No Range (-1/2) Notes: This is a special tomb manufactured by the Church of Morrow to hold dangerous items or those who are dead who would pose an extreme risk in unlife. This is the Ward that Alexia must dispel before getting the Witchfire. PERKS Cost  Name 3 Church Grounds: Access 15 Necromancy HQ: Secret Base (x2, 50 Base, 50 Disad) 18 Total Perks Cost TALENTS Cost  Name 12 Combat Luck (6 PD/6 ED) 12 Total Talents Cost

SKILLS
Cost	Name
3	Acting 11-
4	Bureaucratics (9 Active Points); Limited Power: Church Bureaucratics Power loses about half of its effectiveness (-1) 14-
9	Aura of Protection: +3 On Sorcery Multipower
1	Contortionist 8-
5	Cramming
3	Glyph Reading: Cryptography 13-
3	Disguise 13-
2	Forgery (Documents) 13-
2	AK: Church Grounds 11-
2	KS: Church Hierarchy 11-
2	KS: Magical Constructs 11-
3	PS: Library Research (INT-based) 13-
3	Riding 12-
3	Seduction 11-
3	Stealth 12-
2	WF: Blades, Two-Handed Weapons
50	Total Skills Cost

DISADVANTAGES
Cost	Disadvantage
10	Distinctive Features: Kick Ass Teen Necromancer - tends to draw the eye (Concealable; Noticed and Recognizable; Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses)
25	Enraged: Upon seeing Borloch or his crew (Uncommon), go 14-, recover 8-
10	Hunted: City Watch 11- (As Pow; Harshly Punish; Limited Geographical Area)
5	Hunted: The PC Party 11- (Less Pow; Watching; Extensive Non-Combat Influence)
25	Psychological Limitation: Driven by Revenge for Mother's Death (Very Common; Total)
20	Reputation: The White Witch 14- (Extreme)
15	Psychological Limitation: Hatred for the wicked city of Corvis (Common; Strong)
15	Rivalry: Professional (Vahn Oberen wants to kill alexia and reclaim the Witchfire; Rival is More Powerful; Seek to Harm or Kill Rival; Rival Aware of Rivalry)
0	Normal Characteristic Maxima
125	Total Disadvantages Cost

Height: 5' 5"	Hair: Black
Weight: 120 lbs	Eyes: Grey
Appearance:
Personality:
Quote:
Background: 15 year old Alexia is Father Dumas' niece. Her mother, Pandor's sister in law, was leader of the Corvis Coven and was executed a decade ago. Along with the rest of the witches. Alexia inherited her magical abilities and has become a powerful sorceress. In fact she is a prodigy, having immense skill at a young age. She is motivated by a desire for revenge - revenge on Borloch, who orchestrated the trial, and revenge on Corvis, which she considers a wicked city. The first part of her master plan is stealing the blade Witchfire. In part II she will use it to complete the restoration of the coven and then she will turn her attention on Magistrate Borlock!
Powers/Tactics:
Campaign Use:

Character created with Hero Designer (version 1.47)