Power Discussion: Making Adjustments

[Sean Waters]

There have been some reasonably significant changes to adjustment powers. Notably it is now very expensive to reduce the fade rate of a power (starting at +1!) and you can no longer use expanded effect to target 'all' powers of a particular sfx: you buy up the additional powers you want to affect with an advantage. Finally there's nothing in the rules - which surprised me - about whether the FAQ still stands: each use of an adjustment power fades individually.

 

 

Fade Rate

I can understand why this was done: it was far too cheap to be able to make adjustment effects almost 'permanent' but I think this could have been done better IMO, and I might house rule as follows:

For +1/4 you can reduce the fade rate by 1, and an additional 1 for +1/4, until the fade rate is 1 per turn (which is equal to 5 per minute). Therefore for a +1/2 the fade rate of the power is 3 per turn. That seems a better approach. You could continue that (at +1 it is 5/minute (1 per turn) and for an additional +1/4 it becomes 4 per minute) OR just go to +1/2 = another time hike on the time chart (5/25 minutes). The important bit is that first +1.

 

Expanded Effect

Again, I can understand why this has been done: for +2 you could target ALL powers/characteristics with a given effect - pretty powerful stuff - and this is a more logical structure. The trouble is it sort of cripples some ideas. You have to specify which powers the adjustment works against, and Hero just allows too many options. You can have any number of different attacks that have a 'flame' sfx, and the chances are you will not think of them all when building your drain power. So, whilst I think this is logical in terms of game balance, I think it reduces the concept realisation quotient. That is more important IMO. In any event, a 60 point drain that affected every sfx was only managing 2d6 at most: pretty easy to defend against and pretty mediocre in combat. Although it was abuseable, it was sort of self correcting. Now to target every power/characteristic of a given sfx, you need a +50 advantage (I'm guessing - but it is not far off). That is, frankly, mad. Hopefully 'properly built' characters will remain susceptible - if you have several powers of simlar effect than they will probably be bought with 'unified power', but you ccan not guarantee that build strategy.

 

Cumulative or Individual Effect

I was surprised that this was not addressed in the book. As it reads it looks like you get 5 points back from the total per turn, but the FAQ (at least for 5e) did it differently. A lot of people didn't like that - and it is not obvious at all. It would have been nice to see that sorted in the actual rules.

 

Another (minor) point: I would have likes to see a mechanism for recovering faster than 5/turn: a power or effect that you can buy. The only way to do that is with a form of healing...and that will suffer from the problem wit Expanded Effect noted above (although to a much lesser extent). It wouldn't ahve been difficult to add a power: Adjustment Recovery: For 1 point you recover 1 point faster per time period (so if the power is built so that you recover at 5/hour, for 1 point you recover at 6/hour). I might house rule that too.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Power Discussion: Making Adjustments

 

What are you talking about ... Expanded Effect acknowledges the "madness" and just tells you that a +4 is enough to get all powers of a single SFX at once. a reasonable solution IMO.

 

For a +1/2 you can Adjust any Power of one SFX - no need to think of all possible fire attacks for your Drain at all.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Power Discussion: Making Adjustments

 

Plus, someone with all fire powers will very likely have used the Unified Power Limitation, just like they would very likely have put them in an EC in 5E. So, Drain one, Drain all if that's the case.

If it's not the case, then, well, aren't you the one that dislikes SFX trumping Mechanics? If one guy pays for Flight and EB as fire powers and someone else pays for Flight as jet boots and EB as lazer vision, why should Draining Fireguy's EB effect his Flight, but Draining Lazerguy's EB doesn't effect his jet boot powered Flight?

[tarragon]

Re: Power Discussion: Making Adjustments

 

Finally there's nothing in the rules - which surprised me - about whether the FAQ still stands: each use of an adjustment power fades individually.

 

It's almost listed:

6E1 p135 "If two different Adjustment Powers are applied to the same Characteristic or ability, record and track the fade/recovery of each one individually."

 

That implies the compliment, if a single adjustment power... But I'm not so sure.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Power Discussion: Making Adjustments

 

It's almost listed:

6E1 p135 "If two different Adjustment Powers are applied to the same Characteristic or ability, record and track the fade/recovery of each one individually."

 

That implies the compliment, if a single adjustment power... But I'm not so sure.

 

Well spotted - really can't get on with .pdfs....

 

That seems to imply that a single power you add for a total then subtract 5 per phase but for multiple addjustments you track individually - which makes sense as there can be differnt fade rates. That is a change from the 5e FAQ, and seems a reasonable middle ground.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Power Discussion: Making Adjustments

 

What are you talking about ... Expanded Effect acknowledges the "madness" and just tells you that a +4 is enough to get all powers of a single SFX at once. a reasonable solution IMO.

 

For a +1/2 you can Adjust any Power of one SFX - no need to think of all possible fire attacks for your Drain at all.

 

I had not spotted that *insert bit about not getting on with .pdfs*

 

That mollifies me somewhat, although +4 is a big modifier: you'd only manage 1d6 drain for a 60 point power...and needing that level of

 

It does seem to me that, whilst the basics of adjustment powers have not changed, they've been knobbled for a lot of common builds. I certainly was not finding them over potent and I don't recall much if any criticism of them being too powerful.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Power Discussion: Making Adjustments

 

Plus, someone with all fire powers will very likely have used the Unified Power Limitation, just like they would very likely have put them in an EC in 5E. So, Drain one, Drain all if that's the case.

If it's not the case, then, well, aren't you the one that dislikes SFX trumping Mechanics? If one guy pays for Flight and EB as fire powers and someone else pays for Flight as jet boots and EB as lazer vision, why should Draining Fireguy's EB effect his Flight, but Draining Lazerguy's EB doesn't effect his jet boot powered Flight?

 

My position is somewhat complicated on that front I'm against sfx trumping mechanics on an ad hoc basis. I'm not against acknowledging the effect of sfx with the mechanics.

 

I never thought that adjustment powers could make sense unless you found a way of incorporating sfx. If one guy pays for 12d6 Blast, defining it as magic ice and another pays for 12d6 Blast, defining it as a laser beam, it makes no real sense that a single adjustment power could affect both powers the same way.

 

You have to take an advantage now to affect all 'magic' based sfx...but presumably doing so prevents you affecting any other sfx...so your 'Drain Blast' power now only affects fireblasts (or other fire powers). Now I do not think that there is a sfx that is common enough to make that an advantage: against the majority of opponents, taking Variable Effect makes the power useles afgainst the majority of opponents. That feels like a limitation to me. OK, without 'variable sfx' you are picking just one power to affect, and there is no guarantee the opponent will have that...but some powers are MUCH more common than others and characteristics are ubiquitous - everyone will have them - which makes some adjustment powers much more useful than others.

 

It would make sense to have a scale of advantage/limtiation based on how common certain things are in game.

 

NB The sfx interaction becomes even stranger with Power Defence: it is practically impossible to conceive of a single sfx that adequately explains how Power Defence can protect against every sfx of adjustment power.

 

I'm not saying this is new: the same oddness occured in 5e, but I'm surprised it has not been addressed.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Power Discussion: Making Adjustments

 

I had not spotted that *insert bit about not getting on with .pdfs*

 

That mollifies me somewhat, although +4 is a big modifier: you'd only manage 1d6 drain for a 60 point power...and needing that level of

 

It does seem to me that, whilst the basics of adjustment powers have not changed, they've been knobbled for a lot of common builds. I certainly was not finding them over potent and I don't recall much if any criticism of them being too powerful.

 

I think that +4 is also kind of huge. I wasn't a particularly big fan of how fast this ramped up. I always get shaky when Advantages start to go over +3, seems to reduce the Dice too much.

 

But I'm even less of a fan of AP Caps - I think judging everything against 60 Points is just a plain bad idea. I'd rather judge things on an Effective Damage Class Level (1D6 Drain = 2DCs) and then let the Player worry more about where their points are going, the more they lock up in one spot the less they have in others.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Power Discussion: Making Adjustments

 

I think that +4 is also kind of huge. I wasn't a particularly big fan of how fast this ramped up. I always get shaky when Advantages start to go over +3, seems to reduce the Dice too much.

 

But I'm even less of a fan of AP Caps - I think judging everything against 60 Points is just a plain bad idea. I'd rather judge things on an Effective Damage Class Level (1D6 Drain = 2DCs) and then let the Player worry more about where their points are going, the more they lock up in one spot the less they have in others.

 

I agree, and use AP caps as a guide only - the actual effect matters much more, and the eyeball the only true measure of balance - but what we compare here, for example, is the utility of 'Drain all fire effects 1d6: 50 points' against 10d6 Fire EB.

 

There are many situations in which the Drain will be useful, but as a combat tool - and Hero is biased toward costing on combat utility - there's no real comparison.

[schir1964]

Re: Power Discussion: Making Adjustments

 

That mollifies me somewhat' date=' although +4 is a big modifier: you'd only manage 1d6 drain for a 60 point power...[/quote']

Actually, after all my analysis I did with Adjustment Powers (in general), a +4 Advantage for "All Powers of Single SFX" seems about right. A 1d6 vs All Powers of Single SFX is something I might allow as a GM (especially with the stacking effect with certain adjustment powers).

 

Granted I don't have Hero 6th Edition, but I've been waiting for a thread to discuss the details of the Adjustment Powers to see exactly what has been changed. Thanks Sean.

 

What about the stacking issue that was evident with Succor and Suppress. How do the new rules affect that if at all?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[ghost-angel]

Re: Power Discussion: Making Adjustments

 

Succor is now Boost.

 

Both Boost and Suppress are Aid and Drain (respectively) with Costs Endurance To Maintain and are governed by their respective parent Powers

 

i.e. Maximum Effect of Aid still applies to Boost; Suppress like Drain has no upper Limit to how much it can Suppress - barring the Endurance of the Suppressor.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Power Discussion: Making Adjustments

 

Is that +4 for all powers matching a given SFX all at once, or one at a time? If it is one at a time, I'd say that's way, way, way overpriced.

[Psistrike]

Re: Power Discussion: Making Adjustments

 

Is that +4 for all powers matching a given SFX all at once' date=' or [i']one at a time[/i]? If it is one at a time, I'd say that's way, way, way overpriced.

It is all powers matching a given SFX all at once.

[Vondy]

Re: Power Discussion: Making Adjustments

 

+4 strikes me as being excessive. I will have to wait until I have the book and can fiddle with character designs to form a definitive opinion.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Power Discussion: Making Adjustments

 

Can't we just go back to Fourth Edition Adjustment powers? They kicked a**. The golden age of Adjustment, I swear.

[Vondy]

Re: Power Discussion: Making Adjustments

 

Since I run more mundane, pulpy heroic games the costing isn't a big deal for me. Adjustment powers aren't generally something the characters purchase. At the same time, it should work out for people who are running games with bizarre abilities in play.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Power Discussion: Making Adjustments

 

It is all powers matching a given SFX all at once.

 

I think it is effectively +2 for "any one power or ability of a given SFX" as one advantage, and +2 for "an unlimited number of powers or abilities at the same time".

 

This fixes an issue I had with the 5e rules. If I wanted to adjust "any four fire-based powers" or "any four characteristics", I paid the same price as someone whose ability adjusted "Fire-based Blast, Killing Attack, Force Field and Flight", or "STR, CON, BOD and STUN". There was no price difference between adjusting multiple abilities that were variable versus fixed.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Power Discussion: Making Adjustments

 

I think it is effectively +2 for "any one power or ability of a given SFX" as one advantage' date=' and +2 for "an unlimited number of powers or abilities at the same time".[/quote']

 

It is more like +3 1/2 for '8 or more abilities simultaneously' and +1/2 for 'based on sfx'.

 

This fixes an issue I had with the 5e rules. If I wanted to adjust "any four fire-based powers" or "any four characteristics"' date=' I paid the same price as someone whose ability adjusted "Fire-based Blast, Killing Attack, Force Field and Flight", or "STR, CON, BOD and STUN". There was no price difference between adjusting multiple abilities that were variable versus fixed.[/quote']

 

Now you're going to pay more to adjust "Fire-based Blast, Killing Attack, Force Field and Flight" than "STR, CON, BOD and STUN", despite that latter being something that will work on anyone, and the former being something that will only work on a small subset. In fact, that's wrong. You can not buy "Fire-based Blast, Killing Attack, Force Field and Flight", you can only buy "any four fire based powers or characteristics simultaneously".

 

I see that as an issue.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Power Discussion: Making Adjustments

 

Since I run more mundane' date=' pulpy heroic games the costing isn't a big deal for me. Adjustment powers aren't generally something the characters purchase. At the same time, it should work out for people who are running games with bizarre abilities in play.[/quote']

 

I use adjustment powers - a lot - for diseases and poisons (and in Fantasy type games, for spells). I appreciate that is probably not the sort of thing a lot of Pulp characters will be spending character points on though.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Power Discussion: Making Adjustments

 

Hugh - a further thought - you CAN have "Fire-based Blast, Killing Attack, Force Field and Flight" - you buy it as 4 powers (+1 1/2) and take a limitation that it only affects fire based powers. That is not specifically catered for in the book - you'd have to decide how common fire sfx are...so that particular power is cheaper than "STR, CON, BOD and STUN". That is definitiely an improvement over 5e, where adjusting multiple powers required a sfx link: now it doesn't.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Power Discussion: Making Adjustments

 

Hugh - a further thought - you CAN have "Fire-based Blast' date=' Killing Attack, Force Field and Flight" - you buy it as 4 powers (+1 1/2) and take a limitation that it only affects fire based powers. That is not specifically catered for in the book - you'd have to decide how common fire sfx are...so that particular power is cheaper than "STR, CON, BOD and STUN". That is definitiely an improvement over 5e, where adjusting multiple powers required a sfx link: now it doesn't.[/quote']

 

Hmm. True. Or four times the number of dice and split the effect.

[Vondy]

Re: Power Discussion: Making Adjustments

 

I use adjustment powers - a lot - for diseases and poisons (and in Fantasy type games' date=' for spells). I appreciate that is probably not the sort of thing a lot of Pulp characters will be spending character points on though.[/quote']

 

I use them a lot for poisons, drugs, and diseases, too. But its seldom in places where the actual points to build it matter very much.