Making a master Table Booklet

[Shadow]

Hi I hae a question... actually two question

 

1st

{a possible legality issue so I'll need an Answer from Steve or someone else whith theright... maybe Derran (I'm not sure exacly who can say it is OK or not)}

I want to make a booklet (self use for me and my group all of which own the 6th Edition PDFs and waiting for the physical books ) of all the tables in the 2 books and a booklet that only contain the Heroic level relevant material of character creation (as in non of the powers and minus most of the examples and such) plus some home made stuff (like Talents and the Magic system I created).

 

So the question is if it is allowed ?

 

2nd

(assuming the first question answer is yes I can do that)

Any one know of a program that will let me manipulate the PDFs (As in extract the releven stuff and allow me to lay them out in a manner I like) that works on the Fedora (FC11) distrebution of Linux? or have any other tips on how to approach this?

 

 

Thanks in advance,

Shadow

[Netzilla]

Re: Making a master Table Booklet

 

Any one know of a program that will let me manipulate the PDFs (As in extract the releven stuff and allow me to lay them out in a manner I like) that works on the Fedora (FC11) distrebution of Linux? or have any other tips on how to approach this?

 

 

Thanks in advance,

Shadow

 

When I built my custom GM screens for any game, I use the Open Office spreadsheet software to build the tables. Then I just export to PDF.

[Beowulfe]

Re: Making a master Table Booklet

 

I'm not an official source but I know generally if it is for personal use, it's allowed. Being that you are looking at only you and your group using it, I would doubt there'd be an issue. It's only when you start distributing or selling it that it things get dicey.

[Shadow]

Re: Making a master Table Booklet

 

Thanks for your responses..... even though I didn't get an official answer for my question... so for now I'll bench this idea

[the fox]

Re: Making a master Table Booklet

 

you don't need an official answer, of course it is allowed for personal/group use;

your playing 6th edition Hero plus some home made stuff (like Talents and the Magic system you created); these would be un-official add-ons, which are allowed.

The PDF's are 'locked' so that you can't cut and paste and add sections for your own doc? Sorry, it makes it difficult/ impossible to make the permitted document.

[Beowulfe]

Re: Making a master Table Booklet

 

Actually, the PDF is not locked. You can copy/paste

[Akiva]

Re: Making a master Table Booklet

 

Another thing to consider is grabbing and pasting screen captures of various charts and whatnot that won't cut-and-paste properly. I know a lot of people who have used this method to construct GM screens that look like they were professionally produced.

[phookz]

Re: Making a master Table Booklet

 

Another thing to consider is grabbing and pasting screen captures of various charts and whatnot that won't cut-and-paste properly. I know a lot of people who have used this method to construct GM screens that look like they were professionally produced.

 

I did much the same thing back in 4th edition at Kinkos with photocopiers, scissors, and glue sticks. Liberal use of the reducing feature on the copiers and I was able to produce a two-page sheet with just about every relevant chart on it.. Laminated it and it was my main play aide. Production value would be much higher today with the publishing tools available.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Making a master Table Booklet

 

You might want to do some research on "fair use". Something like this could be covered. But I'm not lawyer, so don't take my word for it. (Whoa. Reading Rainbow flashback....)

[ghost-angel]

Re: Making a master Table Booklet

 

Fair Use pretty much says you can make something like this for you, you only, and not anyone else. Not your group. Not the guy up the street. Not your GM. Just You.

 

That said, the gestapo probably won't kick in your door and gun everyone down if you passed it around the table. . .

 

Probably.

[secretID]

Re: Making a master Table Booklet

 

Here's a thread with an answer to a somewhat related question I had:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73171

 

You might want to post yours in the same forum. I assume they'll say much the same - it's OK to share with your group. The main issue in my case was that it was an online game.

 

FYI, I KNOW ALMOST NOTHING ABOUT COPYRIGHTS, but I believe that it won't make a difference to copyright whether you cut and paste them or reproduce them by your own data entry (i.e., either is potentially problematic).

[Fearghus]

Re: Making a master Table Booklet

 

First question:

 

I have made sheets / booklets / packets like that for nearly every role playing game I have ever played. Having said that "technically" it probably violated copyright. I never took a penny from anyone for these sheets, I never tried to collect money from anyone, and since copyright law is intended to prevent someone from making profit on other people's intellectual property I don't see how there are any damages. Like Prestidigitator said though. I am not a lawyer. I can't promise it won't bite you in the butt if you create this document, but seriously... it's not like your harming anything by doing it. If this is illegal so is every excel character sheet that is published on-line for EVERYONE to download for free. hell there are people selling spreadsheet versions of character sheets, and they aren't being sued, and they ARE making profit on other people's intellectual property.

 

Second Question:

 

What everyone else said. Cut and paste into your favorite word processor... Print and Enjoy.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Making a master Table Booklet

 

First question:

 

I have made sheets / booklets / packets like that for nearly every role playing game I have ever played. Having said that "technically" it probably violated copyright. I never took a penny from anyone for these sheets, I never tried to collect money from anyone, and since copyright law is intended to prevent someone from making profit on other people's intellectual property I don't see how there are any damages. Like Prestidigitator said though. I am not a lawyer. I can't promise it won't bite you in the butt if you create this document, but seriously... it's not like your harming anything by doing it. If this is illegal so is every excel character sheet that is published on-line for EVERYONE to download for free. hell there are people selling spreadsheet versions of character sheets, and they aren't being sued, and they ARE making profit on other people's intellectual property.

 

Second Question:

 

What everyone else said. Cut and paste into your favorite word processor... Print and Enjoy.

I'm not arguing that they shouldn't make this booklet for their use, I just wanted to clarify something you said.

Copy write is not simply about you not making money; it’s about you not taking profit away from the owner. I can’t just print a hundred copies of my favorite book and give it to all my friends, (instead of buying them copies), and say, “hey, I didn’t make any money off it”. Downloading pirated music isn’t illegal because you make a profit on it somehow, it’s illegal because you are taking profit away from the artist by getting the product without paying for it. Just a nitpick, but a rather important one if you actually thought copy-write laws worked the way you stated. Also:

If this is illegal so is every excel character sheet that is published on-line for EVERYONE to download for free

How do you figure?

[phookz]

Re: Making a master Table Booklet

 

10 Myths about copyright

 

http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html

[Vurbal]

Re: Making a master Table Booklet

 

Fair use is probably the most vague area of US law by a wide margin so the only way to be 100% sure in most cases is to go before a judge. Still, in most cases you should be able to figure out whether you're violating copyright or not. The guidelines (in the US) for fair use are:

 

1. The purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes

 

2. The nature of the copyrighted work

 

3. The amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole

 

4. The effect of the use upon the potential market for, or value of, the copyrighted work

 

Considering the first 2 together, creating a new work compiling a bunch of tables from a game book that you've paid for in order to facilitate playing that game is using the work for its intended purpose. Number 3 is clearly in your favor since you're using a nearly insignificant amount of the text. Number 4 is pretty simple as well. If there's no reason to believe the work you're creating will be a substitute for buying the copyrighted work it doesn't affect the value at all. Ergo making a document compiling tables for your own use is pretty clearly fair use.

 

A more important consideration in this case is DOJ's record of being extremely reasonable when it comes to using their PDFs. Post this in the Company Questions forum and I'm sure they'll give you the official okay.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Making a master Table Booklet

 

The trick is number 1.

 

Making a bunch of copies and passing it around your table is not non-profit educational work.

 

Making a copy to sit in front of you at the game table you're golden. Making 7 copies and handing them out you're on thin ice at best, blatant violation and denial of sales at worst.

 

But, I doubt anyone will kick down your door and haul you off to court. Just don't advertise to the whole world and company that you're doing it.

[Vurbal]

Re: Making a master Table Booklet

 

The trick is number 1.

 

Making a bunch of copies and passing it around your table is not non-profit educational work.

 

Making a copy to sit in front of you at the game table you're golden. Making 7 copies and handing them out you're on thin ice at best, blatant violation and denial of sales at worst.

 

But, I doubt anyone will kick down your door and haul you off to court. Just don't advertise to the whole world and company that you're doing it.

I suspect if it came up in court it wouldn't matter whether you made 1 copy to pass around the table or multiple copies so everyone had one in front of them. Unless it's the difference between players buying the books or not it doesn't really change the character, just the logistics. If everyone already has the books it would probably be fair use. And of course, as you say, it's unlikely anyone will be going after you if you do this for your own game whether it's actually fair use or not.

 

Having said that, a better way to go might be to re-create the tables from scratch. Although the tables presented in the book are certainly covered by copyright, the contents of tables rarely is. Most of the time the data contained in a table, aside from the wording of particular elements, isn't. Likewise the rules for a game aren't generally covered except when there are trademark issues, but the wording and layout is. If it were me I would probably use HTML/CSS similarly to how HD exports are done. That would avoid most of the legal grey areas. I might give copies to people who have the books and I'd be fine with using multiple copies in-game. Even though it would probably be legal, I would be unlikely to let anyone who didn't own the books have a copy to keep or do anything else with it that would give someone a reason not to buy them. To me the bigger issues are respect for DOJ and a selfish interest in 6E selling as many copies as possible.

[Fearghus]

Re: Making a master Table Booklet

 

How do you figure?

 

Because... It's pretty much the same thing as reproducing a chart from the book. You reproduce a small portion of the books content. Granted there are a few RPGs that specify on the character sheet page that you have permission to copy it, but not all do, so if copying a chart is a violation so is copying the character sheet.

 

In the end the word DAMAGES is the key from what I understand. It's not like making a copy of the character sheet to make your character does any harm to the sale of the book, just like the charts you are compiling are not particularly useful with out the book. So it's not cutting into sales of the book. I am confident that this is all well within the realm of fair use, and I personally will continue to make sheets / booklets like this for my / my gaming group's use.

[StGrimblefig]

Re: Making a master Table Booklet

 

Because... It's pretty much the same thing as reproducing a chart from the book. You reproduce a small portion of the books content. Granted there are a few RPGs that specify on the character sheet page that you have permission to copy it' date=' but not all do, so if copying a chart is a violation so is copying the character sheet.[/quote']

reproducing one chart is fine, reproducing ALL of them is another matter.

 

In the end the word DAMAGES is the key from what I understand. It's not like making a copy of the character sheet to make your character does any harm to the sale of the book' date=' just like the charts you are compiling are not particularly useful with out the book. So it's not cutting into sales of the book. I am confident that this is all well within the realm of fair use, and I personally will continue to make sheets / booklets like this for my / my gaming group's use.[/quote']

However, there is the problem of the Hero System Resource Kit published for 5E. One component of this kit was the GM screen, which contained most or all of the charts and tables needed during game play. Another component was the character creation summary in the booklet, which contained the distilled costs and accompanying tables for all parts of character creation. If DOJ is considering such a "resource kit" for 6E (and I hope they are), would not your distribution of those same charts and tables harm its sales?

[Vurbal]

Re: Making a master Table Booklet

 

Disclaimer: IANAL, just a layman who has studied US copyright code and caselaw exetnsively. This is not intended to be legal advice and isn't a substitute for consulting a lawyer specializing in copyright law.

reproducing one chart is fine' date=' reproducing ALL of them is another matter.[/quote']

Maybe or maybe not. It depends partly on what you mean by reproduce. With the exception of copyrighted artwork and the exact wording of some text, most of the content found in the tables of just about any RPG book can't be copyrighted.

Copyright does not protect the idea for a game, its name or title, or the method or methods for playing it. Nor does copyright protect any idea, system, method, device, or trademark material involved in developing, merchandising, or playing a game. Once a game has been made public, nothing in the copyright law prevents others from developing another game based on similar principles. Copyright protects only the particular manner of an author’s expression in literary, artistic, or musical form.

 

Material prepared in connection with a game may be subject to copyright if it contains a sufficient amount of literary or pictorial expression. For example, the text matter describing the rules of the game or the pictorial matter appearing on the gameboard or container may be registrable.

In no case does copyright protection for an original work of authorship extend to any idea' date=' procedure, process, system, method of operation, concept, principle, or discovery, regardless of the form in which it is described, explained, illustrated, or embodied in such work.[/quote']

If the table data itself isn't copyrighted, according to the Supreme Court (Feist Publications, Inc v Rural Telephone Service Co) a collection of it (ie the table) is only eligible for copyright protection if it is inobvious or otherwise original. If it's presented in a logical, or in the words of the court "almost inevitable," way, such as alphabetical or numerical arrangement, it's not a copyrighted element when removed from the work as a whole.

 

You can still run into copyright issues if you simply copy and paste from a PDF instead of re-creating the tables manually because design elements of the book may provide the creative element required for copyright protection. And some tables, such as the one for Physical Complications on (p425 of 6E1), contain blocks of text substantial enough that they almost certainly qualify as copyrighted elements. Others, like the Limitations Summary Table (6E1 p366) include text that may or may not qualify, although the minimal requirements for originality generally cited by the courts lead me to believe they probably do. Unless you rewrite the copyrighted text you would have to justify it as fair use, which no one but a judge can rule on. For tables that are essentially a collection of numbers representing game mechanics, like the Advantages Calculation Table (6E1 p362) or the Speed Quick-Reference Table (6E2 p17), not so much.

[torchwolf]

Re: Making a master Table Booklet

 

There is also the issue of trademarks, which would definitely apply to at least those items which carry the name of the game or the system.

 

Steve Long has commented on the issue of the extent of the distribution, as far as the "harm of sales" goes. If you want a definitive answer you might want to describe exactly what you want to do and for whom; if your players already have the books and you just make them a service by compiling tables they already have, it's a whole other issue than if they get the Table Booklet so they won't have to buy the books.

 

Only Steve Long or possibly someone else on DOJ can give you a definite answer, and only if you describe your intent and the circumstances, so you might want to put this under Company Questions. Generally, DOJ seem quite friendly and agreeable if you want to do something reasonable, but of course they also want to avoid pirated material floating around the Internet.

[Vurbal]

Re: Making a master Table Booklet

 

There is also the issue of trademarks, which would definitely apply to at least those items which carry the name of the game or the system.

 

Steve Long has commented on the issue of the extent of the distribution, as far as the "harm of sales" goes. If you want a definitive answer you might want to describe exactly what you want to do and for whom; if your players already have the books and you just make them a service by compiling tables they already have, it's a whole other issue than if they get the Table Booklet so they won't have to buy the books.

 

Only Steve Long or possibly someone else on DOJ can give you a definite answer, and only if you describe your intent and the circumstances, so you might want to put this under Company Questions. Generally, DOJ seem quite friendly and agreeable if you want to do something reasonable, but of course they also want to avoid pirated material floating around the Internet.

The thing about trademarks is that anyone can use them. They just can't use them in a way that someone would be confused into falsely thinking the trademark owner is being represented. That's not always as easy as it sounds, but if you look around for it you might be surprised how often you see it. Even though they technically fall under the umbrella of intellectual property, trademarks are really more of a consumer protection than anything else.

 

However, in general I agree that the prudent (and fair) thing is to ask for official permission when there's any doubt. There are a lot of things I'm sure I could (legally) do that I wouldn't because a) I don't want to hurt Hero System sales and it would be disrespectful to the people who make a living producing the game I love. If DOJ were to decide not to make a resource kit for 6E I would at least make a GM screen style table compilation for myself. I might or might not provide copies to people I game with who already have the book (not an issue now since my players are also my kids). I can't imagine a circumstance under which I would give them to people who haven't bought the book, nor would I distribute it publicly. I hope others feel the same way. Just because something is legal doesn't make it right.

[StGrimblefig]

Re: Making a master Table Booklet

 

Vurbal, thanks for the explanations with links. That helps a lot in these kinds of discussions.