Question about Combat skill levels and damage

[Klaus Mogensen]

Re: Question about Combat skill levels and damage

 

The simple fact is a 0 END Power can:

- Be used immediately upon regaining consciousness, regardless of where your Endurance is.

- Is unaffected by Endurance Drains

- Is independant of your Recovery Score and Recovery Ability

- Has unlimited uses

- Toss in Autofire and you're really cooking.

These are truly great benefits, which you pay 30 points for on a 60-base power. However, if you instead use, say, 26 points to buy +40 END, +36 REC (END only, -1)), you get these benefits:

- You save 4 character points for other stuff, like extra CON, DEF or STUN (making you harder to stun and knock out) or extra Multipower slots (making more powers available)

- The power has only two-thirds the Active Points compared to buying 0 END

- The power can be put into a smaller Multipower, with a reduced slot cost, saving 6 character points on each normal slot (that's 24 points saved on a four-power Multipower)

- At SPD 6 or less, you can use the power indefinitely unless you get knocked out or END-Drained and still have 4 END left over for other uses.

- At SPD 5 or less, you have left-over END and REC for other uses

- If you don't use the power every single phase, you save END and REC for other uses

- The power is unaffected by drains of "Reduced END" advantages

- You have the option of spending STUN to fuel the power

- If you spend a recovery action, you get lots of extra END, which e.g. can be used to push powers

 

Another option for 30 points is to buy +90 END, +12 REC (non-limited). This provides the following benefits:

- You can use the power at least 17 times (even at SPD 12) before having to worry about running out of END

- At SPD 6, you can use the power every phase for 3½ turns before running out of END

- The extra REC means you recover faster from being KO'd and generally wake with more STUN

- You recover faster from BODY damage and many other effects

- You are able to push a lot at the beginning of an encounter

- Plus many of the benefits listed for the first option

 

I can see a case for 0 END Cost for very high-SPD characters that want to have e.g. Force Fields running full time, but for most powers and characters, buying more END and REC makes a lot more sense. That was the case before the reduced costs of END and REC, and much more now.

 

- Klaus

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Question about Combat skill levels and damage

 

These are truly great benefits, which you pay 30 points for on a 60-base power. However, if you instead use, say, 26 points to buy +40 END, +36 REC (END only, -1)), you get these benefits:

- You save 4 character points for other stuff, like extra CON, DEF or STUN (making you harder to stun and knock out) or extra Multipower slots (making more powers available)

 

In a macro sense, taking 0 END on some powers provides the ability to place "Extra END cost" on others you will use less frequently, reducing their costs to buy more powers as well.

 

- The power has only two-thirds the Active Points compared to buying 0 END

 

I don't use AP limits, so who cares?

 

- The power can be put into a smaller Multipower' date=' with a reduced slot cost, saving 6 character points on each normal slot (that's 24 points saved on a four-power Multipower)[/quote']

 

I can have some slots in that larger Multipower have advantages (or just more base points) other than 0 END, creating a more flexible character who can coast forever at 0 END, or spend END on other powers, gaining other effects, most commonly trading off between the two.

 

- At SPD 6 or less' date=' you can use the power indefinitely unless you get knocked out or END-Drained and still have 4 END left over for other uses.[/quote']

 

That "unless" can still matter quite a bit. When you recover from being knocked out and have 3 STUN, you have 3 END. Your bonus REC doesn't count since you don't recover END until you are conscious, and you took your REC to become conscious. Now you need 6 END to attack, 3 for your Force Field, and 1 or 2 for movement. Good luck STAYING conscious!

 

- If you don't use the power every single phase' date=' you save END and REC for other uses[/quote']

 

You can also cycle between 0 END and higher END powers.

 

- The power is unaffected by drains of "Reduced END" advantages

 

I see a lot more END and REC drains than "Reduced END" drains. And, even with their halved effect (END and REC got declared defensive powers, didn't they?), the Drains are slightly more effective than in 5e.

 

Cutting off your air supply is also very effective at eliminating your REC advantage.

 

- You have the option of spending STUN to fuel the power

 

It needs no fuel if it costs no END.

 

- If you spend a recovery action' date=' you get [b']lots[/b] of extra END, which e.g. can be used to push powers

 

If I'm not spending my normal END, I can use that. And we generally restrict Pushes to circumstances more dire than just "I want to win the combat" in our games anyway.

 

Another option for 30 points is to buy +90 END, +12 REC (non-limited). This provides the following benefits:

- You can use the power at least 17 times (even at SPD 12) before having to worry about running out of END

- At SPD 6, you can use the power every phase for 3½ turns before running out of END

 

Unless KO'd at any time.

 

- The extra REC means you recover faster from being KO'd and generally wake with more STUN

 

But still with limited END, although a bit more.

 

- You recover faster from BODY damage and many other effects

 

I rarely see standard rate BOD healing in most games, but OK.

 

- You are able to push a lot at the beginning of an encounter

 

"I want to win quickly" would be even less justification for pushing in our games.

 

As we start to see how characters are constructed, I expect we'll see whether the pricing changes have the desired effect (END/REC/STUN as a viable option to DEF/Reduced END), are too little to have the desired impact, or flip things too far the other way. That said, I would have no objection to "0 END" being redefined to mean the power is exactly like one which cost no END by default (eg. you don't need to buy Persistent to have it remain in effect if you are stunned or KO'd).

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: Question about Combat skill levels and damage

 

As opposed to the +3.5 average roll on a d6?

 

The average roll of a single die is meaningless since it has no mode, and I would rather have the chance to do more or less damage than a flat +3 STUN gives. I would especially like the chance to do extra BODY damage, if that comes with the chance of rolling a 1 then so be it.

 

If I wanted fixed effect damage then I would just buy a fixed effect attack power.

[secretID]

Re: Question about Combat skill levels and damage

 

Almost never.

 

Personally, I have a prejudice against it because, unless I've been missing something, it balances terribly with Spread. Why does +1 DC cost -2 OCV in levels, but +1 OCV costs -1 DC in Spread? It seems to be about a 1:1 tradeoff in MAs, too.

 

On what has become the side topic, I don't think I've ever built a Reduced END power in 5e, except possibly as part of a MP slot where DCs were an issue, so there were basically points to throw away. Even where high SPD is an issue, I've always preferred to just buy Only to Activate.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Question about Combat skill levels and damage

 

The average roll of a single die is meaningless since it has no mode' date=' and I would rather have the chance to do more or less damage than a flat +3 STUN gives. I would especially like the chance to do extra BODY damage, if that comes with the chance of rolling a 1 then so be it.[/quote']

 

In most Supers games, +1 BOD has minimal impact, although I suppose it can enhance knockback. It would be most useful for breaking things, but how much does skill influence the likelihood of breaking a vault door when the same raw power is available?

 

In any case, 6e clearly eliminates the issue by removing the discrepancy between Heroic and Superheroic. I'm inclined to agree there was never any great reason for having them differ. I wonder, however, whether there should not be a cap on the total damage (ie you get to add damage, but a 12d6 attack still can't exceed 72 STUN, 24 BOD). You'd need a lot of skill levels or an incredible roll, for this to matter in most Supers games, though, so it is likely an academic point at that level.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Question about Combat skill levels and damage

 

In my experience using levels to boost DC rarely happens in heroic level campaigns, but does occur in superheroic campaigns in the case of a martial artist with lots of CSLs going up against a brick. In heroic level campaigns, most characters are already at the max damage for the weapon (no more than double the base damage) through STR or martial arts manuevers and so those CSL are better put toward a placed shot if they want a damage boost.

 

And although I agree that CSLs to raise DCs seems a bit cheaper compared to buying extra damage outright, if you are capping weapon damage at double base damage, then the CSL route is going to hit that wall while buying extra damage doesn't. That said, I think the real determination should be the sfx of the damage increase. If it is just superb combat technique, then CSLs is the way to go. If you are electrifying your sword, then buy the extra damage.

[Klaus Mogensen]

Re: Question about Combat skill levels and damage

 

Why does +1 DC cost -2 OCV in levels' date=' but +1 OCV costs -1 DC in Spread?[/quote']

That's easy enough to explain. Something bought mainly as CV should be less effective at doing damage than something bought mainly for damage is, and vice versa. So +2 OCV can't be traded for +2 DC, and +1 DC can't be traded for +2 OCV.

 

If you had a fixed trade-off rate back and forth (say, +3 OCV ~ 2 DC), you risk situations where it always is a good idea to trade OCV for damage, because it is cheaper than buying extra damage, or where it always is a good idea to trade damage for OCV, because it is cheaper than buying extra OCV.

 

As it is, trading OCV for damage is a very good deal if you can use 3-point levels. That costs 6 points for +1 DC, 0 END Cost, which can be traded for +2 OCV. Buying +1 DC with 0 END Cost usually costs 7.5 points, and you can only trade it for +1 OCV.

 

- Klaus

[secretID]

Re: Question about Combat skill levels and damage

 

That's easy enough to explain. Something bought mainly as CV should be less effective at doing damage than something bought mainly for damage is' date=' [b']and vice versa[/b]. So +2 OCV can't be traded for +2 DC, and +1 DC can't be traded for +2 OCV.

(Emphasis mine.) But something bought mainly as damage is not less effective as CV. Via Spread, you give up 1 DC and get 1 OCV. If it cost 2 to get 1 each way, it would make more sense to me. (Hmm...unless you look at it as 1 OCV = .75 or so DC, so that you get penalized whichever way you trade.)

 

As it is' date=' trading OCV for damage is a very good deal if you can use 3-point levels. That costs 6 points for +1 DC, 0 END Cost, which can be traded for +2 OCV. Buying +1 DC with 0 END Cost usually costs 7.5 points, and you can only trade it for +1 OCV.[/quote']

Excellent illustration.