Question about Combat skill levels and damage

[ajackson]

Re: Question about Combat skill levels and damage

 

The Endurance Cost of a Power not only depends on how much Endurance you have' date=' but how much you can Recover, and how often you can use it.[/quote']

Let's say you use a power every phase at speed 6, and it costs 5 END per use, or 30 END per turn. For 25 points, you can buy 0 END cost on that power. For 21 points, you can buy +30 END and +30 REC (END only, -1).

 

Zero END cost is thus more expensive until speed 8 (and out of combat, you can lower your speed), and even then applies only to a single power, so it seems a bit pricy at the moment. Of course, powers with limitations can make zero END cost relatively cheaper.

 

There is actually a fairly easy way to fix this without breaking the granularity of the system: either make reduced END cost an adder (probably 2-3 points for -1 END cost), or make it a +1/4 advantage and people can buy partially advantaged powers. The adder method is probably easier

[m3nt0r]

Re: Question about Combat skill levels and damage

 

Let's say you use a power every phase at speed 6, and it costs 5 END per use, or 30 END per turn. For 25 points, you can buy 0 END cost on that power. For 21 points, you can buy +30 END and +30 REC (END only, -1).

 

Zero END cost is thus more expensive until speed 8 (and out of combat, you can lower your speed), and even then applies only to a single power, so it seems a bit pricy at the moment. Of course, powers with limitations can make zero END cost relatively cheaper.

 

There is actually a fairly easy way to fix this without breaking the granularity of the system: either make reduced END cost an adder (probably 2-3 points for -1 END cost), or make it a +1/4 advantage and people can buy partially advantaged powers. The adder method is probably easier

 

It's not only a matter of recovering the END but also when you can use the power,a 0 END power will work without complications even if someone drained you to -100 END.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Question about Combat skill levels and damage

 

You can also use a 0END Power immediately after regaining Consciousness from being Knocked Out, regardless of what positive END your Recovery took you to - even 1 End. Without immediately knocking yourself back out again.

 

That's worth something as well.

[ajackson]

Re: Question about Combat skill levels and damage

 

You can also use a 0END Power immediately after regaining Consciousness from being Knocked Out' date=' regardless of what positive END your Recovery took you to - even 1 End. Without immediately knocking yourself back out again.[/quote']

That's another argument for Recovery -- it causes you to wake up with more END (and more Stun, unless you limited it down).

[pinecone]

Re: Question about Combat skill levels and damage

 

How much was the option to use combat skill levels to increase damage used in your games? A general estimate like "Allot"' date=' "occasionally" or "almost never" is fine, I don't need precise numbers.[/quote']

 

By me? seldom, by others in games I run...Very seldom, almost never....

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Question about Combat skill levels and damage

 

That's another argument for Recovery -- it causes you to wake up with more END (and more Stun' date=' unless you limited it down).[/quote']

 

Ummm..no

 

If you are KO'd to -9 STUN, you will have more STUN and END when you wake up if you have a 9 REC than if you have 10 - 17 REC.

[Klaus Mogensen]

Re: Question about Combat skill levels and damage

 

If you are KO'd to -9 STUN' date=' you will have more STUN and END when you wake up if you have a 9 REC than if you have 10 - 17 REC.[/quote']

But if you have 9 REC + 30 REC (STUN Only: -1), you will have way more STUN when you wake up. As ajackson pointed out, that is what you have to compare with. Or put the END in a battery; then you don't even have to think about losing it when you're knocked out.

 

The big picture is: END Cost has been reduced by a factor of 2½, but the cost of Reduced END hasn't changed. Don't you think that there's something wrong with that picture?

 

It would make sense if Reduced END was much too cheap before, compared to END, but as I showed in the 6e forum (using math; sorry!), the reverse was more the case.

 

- Klaus

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Question about Combat skill levels and damage

 

But if you have 9 REC + 30 REC (STUN Only: -1)' date=' you will have way more STUN when you wake up.[/quote']

 

An interesting aside. Let's assume I have exactly the above, and I am KO'd at -19. At PS 12, I wake up with 20 STUN. How much END would I have? Part of me says 20, since I wake up with END equal to my STUN.

 

However, I only have 9 REC that affects END, so how can I get above 9 END with a single recovery? That suggests I awake with 9 END, the maximum I could recover. My REC didn't recover END until I reached positive STUN, so that seems a reasonable result.

 

The third option would be to say you have -10 END (you started at -19, same as STUN, and recovered 9, so you will lose STUN instead of END until your 9 REC gets your END back into the positives again). I think that's overkill snce, as noted above, you don't recover END until you attain positive STUN anyway.

 

As ajackson pointed out' date=' that is what you have to compare with.[/quote']

 

As a point of order, I don't "have to" compare with anything. I "wish to" compare with actual gameplay results. All the REC in the world won't help me against an END drain, or just running out of END.

 

Or put the END in a battery; then you don't even have to think about losing it when you're knocked out.

 

I also can't recover after awakening in PS 12 by playing possum in my first phase, so there are tradeoffs there as well. I believe 6e has raised the price of END in a reserve as compared to END purchased as a characteristic specifically to address the fact that Reserve END is effectively Persistent and normal END is not. The price of Reserve REC has, I believe, been discounted to reflect it recovers no STUN or BOD, and cannot be accelerated, presumably tempered with the fact it recovers every turn even if your regular recoveries are less frequent due to STUN below -19.

 

And you can also make powers that draw on an END reserve 1/2 END (at 0 END, no one cares what it draws on, but a 0 END power could draw on the END reserve, rather than personal END, as well, in theory).

 

The big picture is: END Cost has been reduced by a factor of 2½, but the cost of Reduced END hasn't changed. Don't you think that there's something wrong with that picture?

 

It would make sense if Reduced END was much too cheap before, compared to END, but as I showed in the 6e forum (using math; sorry!), the reverse was more the case.

 

Time will tell how matters work out in play. Your use of math is accompanied by use of assumptions (most notably, on how long combat will last, how soon loss of END has an impact, and whether the character would be KO'd, losing all his END, in the course of the combat), which means it cannot be fully objective. Much like economics, which also uses both math and assumptions, we may discover that the real world is a special case.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Question about Combat skill levels and damage

 

But if you have 9 REC + 30 REC (STUN Only: -1)' date=' you will have way more STUN when you wake up. As ajackson pointed out, that is what you have to compare with. Or put the END in a battery; then you don't even have to think about losing it when you're knocked out.[/quote']

 

But you won't have more END when you wake up.

 

Perhaps you meant:

 

9 REC + 20 REC (END Only; -1)

 

WAIT, now you're still unconcious. That doesn't help at all.

 

9 REC + 20 REC (END and STUN Only; -0) because in Combat that's what Recovery is used for.

 

The simple fact is a 0 END Power can:

- Be used immediately upon regaining consciousness, regardless of where your Endurance is.

- Is unaffected by Endurance Drains

- Is independant of your Recovery Score and Recovery Ability

- Has unlimited uses

- Toss in Autofire and you're really cooking.

- And we just can't break down the Advantage System more than +1/4 and +1/2 without getting silly to begin with. Given two options: 1/2 and 0 END, we're pretty much stuck anyways.

 

So you can be amazed at the lack of change all you want. We can pretend to set our Stun at a Random Negative Level in some odd hope of proving one side right, but unless you plan on landing on that specific -STUN every time, it's a pointless exercise.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Question about Combat skill levels and damage

 

Well, one option would have been to drop the 1/2 End level and simply made 0 End cost a +1/4 Advantage. Not saying I'd prefer that, but it could have been done.

[director13]

Re: Question about Combat skill levels and damage

 

On a related 6e note, even though we use the levels for damage "a lot", a -1/2 Limitation on Combat Skill Levels used to build Deadly Blow and Weaponmaster seems insufficicent for losing at least 2/3 of the functionality of the CSLs (OCV and DCV bonuses).

 

Alternatively, bumping it to "-1 1/2" gets us 7, 12,and 16 for Weaponmaster (and 10, 12, 14 for Deadly Blow).

 

Sort of a middle ground between the old and new ways of doing business. Feels more fair to me, especially if the GM is playing with the optional "double damage cap".

 

YMMV

[JamesG]

Re: Question about Combat skill levels and damage

 

How much was the option to use combat skill levels to increase damage used in your games? A general estimate like "Allot"' date=' "occasionally" or "almost never" is fine, I don't need precise numbers.[/quote']

 

In Fantasy Hero, frequently.

In Champions, occasionally.

I really don’t recall how often we did it in Star Hero.

 

Also note that we use the “Heroic” rules (2 CSLs = +1 DC) in all genres. We don’t use the other formula for superheroic games. It never made much sense to us to have different systems for different genres and the superheroic method was harder to remember.

 

Why are you asking nexus?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Question about Combat skill levels and damage

 

In Fantasy Hero, frequently.

In Champions, occasionally.

I really don’t recall how often we did it in Star Hero.

 

Also note that we use the “Heroic” rules (2 CSLs = +1 DC) in all genres. We don’t use the other formula for superheroic games. It never made much sense to us to have different systems for different genres and the superheroic method was harder to remember.

 

Why are you asking nexus?

 

Good news. There's only one method in 6E, and it's the bonus DC one. It does have to account for Advantages that affect damage though.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Question about Combat skill levels and damage

 

On a related 6e note' date=' even though we use the levels for damage "a lot", a -1/2 Limitation on Combat Skill Levels used to build Deadly Blow and Weaponmaster seems insufficicent for losing at least 2/3 of the functionality of the CSLs (OCV and DCV bonuses).[/quote']

 

Agreed. It also implies that CSL's only usable for OCV and DCV should rceive a -2 limitation, as they account for only 1/3 of the functionality. I'd be inclined to say -1 for having only one of the three uses and -1/2 for losing one of the three. -1 is still a bit light, but most characters do have one of the three areas where they rarely or never use the levels. -1 1/2 (or even -2) could also be justified if one views all three functions as equally important and valuable, but -1 has a "gut feel" right level to me.

[JmOz]

Re: Question about Combat skill levels and damage

 

It would come up occasionaly in my games, maybe once out of 7-8 sessions or so

[ajackson]

Re: Question about Combat skill levels and damage

 

Agreed. It also implies that CSL's only usable for OCV and DCV should rceive a -2 limitation' date=' as they account for only 1/3 of the functionality.[/quote']

No it doesn't; reducing the number of options available with an ability does not reduce the power's functionality by anywhere near as much as the reduction in number of options. I'd call it a -1/4 for losing one option (damage, OCV, or DCV), a -1/2 for losing two options.

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: Question about Combat skill levels and damage

 

No it doesn't; reducing the number of options available with an ability does not reduce the power's functionality by anywhere near as much as the reduction in number of options. I'd call it a -1/4 for losing one option (damage' date=' OCV, or DCV), a -1/2 for losing two options.[/quote']

 

Exactly, they are essentially multi-powers. You pay the pool cost and the slot cost. Removing a slot doesn't usually change your points by a huge amount.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Question about Combat skill levels and damage

 

No it doesn't; reducing the number of options available with an ability does not reduce the power's functionality by anywhere near as much as the reduction in number of options. I'd call it a -1/4 for losing one option (damage' date=' OCV, or DCV), a -1/2 for losing two options.[/quote']

 

CORRECTED FOR COST

 

It's 10 points for 1 level with all combat (thanks for the update - I'm postponing 6e until hard copies are out as I'm not a fan of .pdfs)? That would mean the ability to use this level only for DCV, or only for OCV. costs 7 points when +1 OCV or +1 DCV costs 5. DC's, of course, are harder to value as there's no other easy way to buy +1 DC with any attack I use at any given time.

 

That would suggest, "only for OCV" and "only for DCV" should each be a -1 limitation, at least. Perhaps they should be higher, as I lose half my DCV, but all my levels, if I'm stunned or surprised out of combat. I can't think when there would be an added drawback for OCV, though.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Question about Combat skill levels and damage

 

It's 12 points for 1 level with all combat' date=' right? That would mean the ability to use this level only for DCV, or only for OCV. costs 8 points when +1 OCV or +1 DCV costs 5. DC's, of course, are harder to value as there's no other easy way to buy +1 DC with any attack I use at any given time.[/quote']

 

It's not quite that bad yet. It's 10 points for +1 with all combat. The 12 pointers are the Overall Skill Levels that can be used for just about anything, in and out of combat.

[ajackson]

Re: Question about Combat skill levels and damage

 

It's 12 points for 1 level with all combat' date=' right?[/quote']

10 points, and (imo) overpriced even there; see my thread on cost of levels.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Question about Combat skill levels and damage

 

Links are helpful when suggesting threads, especially ones you started

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: Question about Combat skill levels and damage

 

Here it is. It was in the top ten results when searching for threads by ajackson.

 

EDIT: Oh, I didn't see the smiley. Still, here it is.

[Rapier]

Re: Question about Combat skill levels and damage

 

In the games where it is an option, with fair regularity.

 

It's always a trade-off. Adding +2d6 with your levels doesn't do beans if you miss. So there were times when they got dumped into damage and other times when they stayed with OCV.

 

More than anything, their utility (in this manner) is a powerful tool. If you are answering 'never' or 'hardly ever' then I'd ask that you try and make more of an effort to try it. Once you do, I don't think you'll have any doubts.

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: Question about Combat skill levels and damage

 

They were probably playing a supers campaign using the RAW for CSLs as damage. I imagine it will come up more often in SexEd. I tried used them in supers campaigns until I found out I only got +3 STUN.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Question about Combat skill levels and damage

 

They were probably playing a supers campaign using the RAW for CSLs as damage. I imagine it will come up more often in SexEd. I tried used them in supers campaigns until I found out I only got +3 STUN.

 

As opposed to the +3.5 average roll on a d6?