combat luck when grabbed

[secretID]

Grabbed by TK with a wind sfx.

1) Should the combat luck apply to the squeeze damage?

2) Should it apply to other attacks while the grab is in effect, of which the grabbed character is aware?

 

In 5e, being grabbed isn't a listed exception, but it doesn't say that the list is exhaustive. I'm inclined to think that it doesn't protect against either, but I wanted to see if there was substantial disagreement before this PC got toasted.

[ghost-angel]

Re: combat luck when grabbed

 

I keep giving thought to how to handle the Luck Based part of Combat luck and the following thought occured to:

 

Roll Luck Dice equal to either 1) the number of levels of Combat Luck they have or 2) equal to the amount of PD they have, or a factor of.

 

1 Level of Combat Luck 3rPD/ED would be either 1D6 Luck or 3D6 Luck...

 

If they get Lucky in a questionable situation they get some or all of their Combat Luck to use.

 

Say, 1D6 Luck for each point of defense, a 3D6 Luck Roll for one level of Combat Luck, if they get any 6s they get to apply their Combat Luck. You could even do it this way: for each 6 they get 1 Point of Defense to use (instead of the normal Luck of more 6s has more benefit or benfits those around you).

 

Leaves the Luck part up in the air, and hopefully removes the question (or accusation) or misapplying, or not applying Combat Luck when the Player wants it most.

[secretID]

Re: combat luck when grabbed

 

I'm really not a big fan of the mechanic, though I think there needs to be something there to fit Batman, etc. I don't like the idea of having any portion of it be automatic, so that you're guaranteed bulletproof in those circumstances - that just raises all of the questions about 2x Piercing and AoE and stuff. Maybe in the future I'll just make it entirely roll-based, with results ranging from a total miss to limited damage. That seems to be what you're saying, but I'll have to read it over a few times.

 

As applied to this situation, the player might use the luck to avoid the grab in the first place. It could act like an extra action for use only for defensive action, which is of course very close to the sfx.

[prestidigitator]

Re: combat luck when grabbed

 

I allow the Combat Luck. The grabbed character is not helpless. They can still fight, and haven't deliberately thrown themselves in harm's way such that it is certain they will take damage. Squeeze, Slam, and Throw only succeed without another attack roll if performed immediately, so I think it's fair to say there's still a decent bit of "luck"/skill involved.

[secretID]

Re: combat luck when grabbed

 

I allow the Combat Luck. The grabbed character is not helpless. They can still fight' date=' and haven't deliberately thrown themselves in harm's way such that it is certain they will take damage. Squeeze, Slam, and Throw only succeed without another attack roll if performed [i']immediately[/i], so I think it's fair to say there's still a decent bit of "luck"/skill involved.

It sounds like you would still apply it, but FYI, in this case the bigger issue by far is the attacks after the grab & squeeze.

[prestidigitator]

Re: combat luck when grabbed

 

It sounds like you would still apply it' date=' but FYI, in this case the bigger issue by far is the attacks after the grab & squeeze.[/quote']

 

Same issue IMO. Unless maybe the grabber can hold the grabbed character in such a way as to keep them unaware of an incoming attack, I'd apply Combat Luck.

 

(Hmm. I'm pondering an alternative to Choke. Instead of grabbing the head and cutting off the air supply, grab the head and cover the eyes or other sensory organs. No damage, but effectively blind the target on every Phase where you succeed on an attack roll until either your next Phase or when they manage to break out. Perhaps allow a bonus to the break out and/or Contortionist roll if the grabbed character only tries to uncover the eyes rather than escape completely.)

[secretID]

Re: combat luck when grabbed

 

Wow - Steve is on the ball now that he's done writing. He answered my Q in minutes - the default is that combat luck still works when grabbed.

[Jhamin]

Re: combat luck when grabbed

 

I'm really not a big fan of the mechanic' date=' though I think there needs to be something there to fit Batman, etc. I don't like the idea of having any portion of it be automatic, so that you're guaranteed bulletproof in those circumstances - that just raises all of the questions about 2x Piercing and AoE and stuff. Maybe in the future I'll just make it entirely roll-based, with results ranging from a total miss to limited damage. That seems to be what you're saying, but I'll have to read it over a few times. [/quote']

 

I understand your trepidation. But I think this is a case where genre logic has to trump mechanics logic. The very essence of Combat Luck is that the character survives attacks others would not because they are the main character. It is the same logic that dicates that weapons that kill extras will only wound leads in a TV show, even if the lead has the same protection.

 

If you go down the road of requiring rolls every time a character is attacked, then what you are really doing is adding a "save or die" mechanic to your game. If the roll succeeds, then the defense works and the PC is ok, if the roll fails the PC is much less protected & probably is greviously wounded. That creates a world where Han Solo's luck eventually gets ground down by the law of averages & you are better off having StormTrooper armor.

[Sean Waters]

Re: combat luck when grabbed

 

Combat Luck was introduced to allow characters whose concept did not include armour/force fields/resistant defence to survive in a world where the stun lottery existed. It was not so much to avoid Body damage (although that certainly helps) but to avoid 'instant KO', which is a bit un-heroic.

 

Now that the stun lottery is limping around on crutches that is much less of an issue.

 

'Luck based' is -1/3, which means that about 1 in 3 attacks should get around it. My attitude is that 'damage that you can not avoid' ignores Combat luck, so if The Human Target is strapped down to an operating table and The Plastic Surgeon cuts her with his scalpel, her Combat Luck is not going to help her: having the scalpel blade slip or snap is just too unlikely.

 

By the same token, you might decide that 'squeezing damage' following a successful grab is something you can not avoid: your skin is not going to magically harden - and so you might want to say, for example, that the following categories (generally) do not allow the use of combat luck:

 

Damage against immobilised targets

Area of Effect damage

Squeezing or crushing damage

Environmental damage

 

No real need to be completely regimented about it, but if you (and your players) like a more structured approach, that could well do you.

 

If you want defences that can potentially work against anything (but do not always work), ditch 'luck based' and re-build it with a 14- activation roll.

[secretID]

Re: combat luck when grabbed

 

Yeah - I'd be more inclined to make the combat luck ineffective against the squeeze.

 

I don't know if my players can take another house rule, but I'm thinking about alternatives:

- combat luck charges, each of which can be spent re-rolling a hit or granting an immediate defensive action (e.g., dive for cover)

- the ability to obtain the same effect, but only by paying each time with 1 pt. of BOD plus some STUN (you avoided the incendiary grenade, but only with a desperate dive that hurt a bit)

- an ability to trade BOD damage for STUN

 

I should probably check that great house rules list.

[Kenn]

Re: combat luck when grabbed

 

How badly would John McClaine (from "Die Hard") be affected by the squeeze? I'd tend to let the combat Luck apply.

[secretID]

Re: combat luck when grabbed

 

How badly would John McClaine (from "Die Hard") be affected by the squeeze? I'd tend to let the combat Luck apply.

Dunno - I'd say he's got an awful lot of BOD along with whatever combat luck. "Dodge Well" probably wouldn't be as catchy a name.

[archermoo]

Re: combat luck when grabbed

 

Combat Luck was introduced to allow characters whose concept did not include armour/force fields/resistant defence to survive in a world where the stun lottery existed. It was not so much to avoid Body damage (although that certainly helps) but to avoid 'instant KO', which is a bit un-heroic.

 

Huh, I always saw it as a way to give resistant defenses to a character that didn't have something like armor or a force field or even naturally resistant def in the concept. To protect against the Body damage of Killing Attacks, not so much against the Stun. Except insofar as having any Resistant def allowing them to use their normal def against the Stun way back in 5e.

 

So to my mind the need for/usefulness of it haven't really changed.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: combat luck when grabbed

 

Huh' date=' I always saw it as a way to give resistant defenses to a character that didn't have something like armor or a force field or even naturally resistant def in the concept. To protect against the Body damage of Killing Attacks, not so much against the Stun. Except insofar as having any Resistant def allowing them to use their normal def against the Stun way back in 5e. So to my mind the need for/usefulness of it haven't really changed.[/quote']

I have to say I agree with this. I’ve always used Combat Luck, almost purely, for giving rDEF to characters without armor, not to up their regular Def. If I wanted to do that I’d just buy more PD and ED and consider the character “tough”.

As far as Combat Luck applying to squeeze damage or other attacks when grabbed, I think there are some things to consider. Grabbing immobilizes two limbs (usually the arms, in my experience). While this severely limits movement, it also places your arms in between your vulnerable body and you attacker, making it much more difficult to actually cause damage/ knock the wind out of you/ et cetera. It’s a lot easier to break someone’s rib, or force the air out of their lungs, if their arms aren’t in the way. For Combat Luck to apply to Squeeze Damage, the only FX you really need is, “the grab is a bit low, still pinning the arms but most of the squeezing is below the diaphragm/near the waste” or “the grab is too high, pinning the arms, but to close to the shoulders to hurt the ribs, squeeze the breath out of them”. Those FX don’t seem ridiculous to me, and feel exactly like what Combat Luck is supposed to do, but YMMV.

[the fox]

Re: combat luck when grabbed

 

no exceptions to the general rules need to exist, so sayeth the computer in my mind.

Combat Luck is a mechanic to ostensibly give resistant defenses to 'lucky' characters, and make 'em tougher to boot, whereas it is cumulative with 'normal' defenses.

That's why I'd apply it in nearly every case!

Damage against immobilised targets (are you completely immobilized?)

 

Area of Effect damage (gee, your completely surrounded by fire but aren't getting burned!)

Squeezing or crushing damage (are you completely immobilized?)

Environmental damage, see AoE above.

and, let me add, Surprised/unaware (somehow, you move at the last second, partially dodging the attack);

 

Only where it is ostensibly negated would I not apply it.

Also when I need less KA dice to 'injure' the character and not K.O. 'im.

[the fox]

Re: combat luck when grabbed

 

an end to amnesty, however cruel, will remove the banner presently 'above' this forum,

restoring functionality to this site for me and others.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: combat luck when grabbed

 

an end to amnesty, however cruel, will remove the banner presently 'above' this forum,

restoring functionality to this site for me and others.

What?

[bigbywolfe]

Re: combat luck when grabbed

 

no exceptions to the general rules need to exist, so sayeth the computer in my mind and, let me add, Surprised/unaware (somehow, you move at the last second, partially dodging the attack);

 

Only where it is ostensibly negated would I not apply it.

Also when I need less KA dice to 'injure' the character and not K.O. 'im.

I may not be understanding you. The book specifically lists being Surprised as one of the cases where Combat Luck might not apply (Only might, granted) as well as being Asleep or Unconscious (which seem to both fall into the “Unaware” category). So, wouldn’t not counting being Surprised/Unaware be an exception to the general rules? Or am I horribly over thinking this? If I am, sorry…

[secretID]

Re: combat luck when grabbed

 

What?

I think that was a Shakespearean aside.

 

OK...now I've got another one. (I hate making sfx-based calls!)

 

Uncontrolled Continuous (fire) EB. Assume that there's no question that the Combat Luck would apply if the attack were not Continuous - just missed him, blah, blah. I ruled that the Combat Luck applied to the first hit, just cuz. But now he's on fire, by the sfx, and the sfx are particularly important here, since the sfx tell you how to stop the Uncontrolled fire - extinguish in the usual ways.

 

I saw this as an easy call for Combat Luck not applying, but the player suggested that the same thing that had protected him from the first hit (say, "only your jacket is burning") would protect him from the later hits. Of course, the nature of fire is that if you start with your clothes burning, well, things progress.

 

Thoughts?

 

I'm definitely going to discourage Combat Luck in the future. I don't like mechanic generally, and I hate making calls like these.

[the fox]

Re: combat luck when grabbed

 

By 'general rule' I didn't mean 'by the rules, including exceptions'

By 'general rule' I mean it how it generally works/applies; by 'exception' I mean when it doesn't apply.

'no exceptions to the general rules need to exist'

is actually saying it should always work/apply, without exception.

and is actually a purposefully "over-reaching" statement.

[the fox]

Re: combat luck when grabbed

 

Thanks for the save, Secret I.D.! an aside it definitely was!

Thoughts? you nearly got me on that one, but then my 'magical armor' protected me!

How? well, pretty dependably, as always.

How? almost magically!

How? of whatever 'fuel' causes this continuous fire, luckily not as much did strike me or my costume to begin with. This lesser fuel causes lesser damage, though it burns for just as long, that I readily admit.

Please don't disallow my 'magical' protection because I want it to 'magically' always apply!

[secretID]

Re: combat luck when grabbed

 

Thoughts? you nearly got me on that one, but then my 'magical armor' protected me!

How? well, pretty dependably, as always.

How? almost magically!

How? of whatever 'fuel' causes this continuous fire, luckily not as much did strike me or my costume to begin with. This lesser fuel causes lesser damage, though it burns for just as long, that I readily admit.

Please don't disallow my 'magical' protection because I want it to 'magically' always apply!

Hmm. Combat Luck isn't perfectly dependable, and it doesn't always apply. You seem to be looking at the list in the rules of when it doesn't apply as an exhaustive list. That's a reasonable interpretation, but I'm not sure I agree.

 

Restrainable, a limitation similar to Luck-based, is usually pretty clearly defined: the power is restrained by grabs and entangled, and when the particular limb or whatever is disabled. Luck-based is a lot fuzzier, to me. The examples of jumping in front of an attack is clear cut, but it doesn't seem exhaustive to me, because I don't think that would be worth -1/2. (The examples of asleep and unconscious are part of Nonpersistent, not Luck-based.)

 

It makes sense to me that grabs wouldn't usually be an issue, b/c if they were, then Luck-based would be be Restrainable plus more, at the cost of Restrainable. So...what else is there?

 

I don't think Combat Luck was designed, e.g., to protect a character who is strapped to a table and then shot in the center of the chest point blank. I think if you want something that works there, you should get Armor, or for that matter Luck, which might make the gun jam or something.

 

From the general idea of Combat Luck - e.g., Batman and Daredevil's ability to dodge bullets all day - I'm inclined to apply Combat Luck wherever the character's DCV is an issue. I would also apply it to AOE attacks, because otherwise -1/2 would be too small, and Combat Luck would be too limited. I don't have a great sfx justification for it in AOE situations, but I guess it's something like finding a bit of cover or something.

 

So..."attacks where DCV is an issue, and AOE attacks" works for me...I think...

[ghost-angel]

Re: combat luck when grabbed

 

Combat Luck is built with a Limitation. As such that Limitation actually needs to come into play. It is both Luck-Based and Non-Persistent.

 

There are a lot of situations where it won't apply. And since Luck is as much SFX as Mechanic, it really does come down to SFX Interaction.

 

You either need to decide when the character's luck ran out, or have a mechanism to determine for you - hence the Roll Base I mentioned at the start. And no - I did NOT intend that to be all the time, I intended that Roll Mechanism ONLY for when you weren't sure, and didn't want to make a call.

 

Like with the Continuous Fire case, roll 3D6, every Phase. Every 6 indicates that 1PD of Combat Luck helped you in some way (Got Lucky I guess).

 

Luck-Based is only a -1/2, so it should apply to at least 2/3 of the conditions out there, or 2/3 of the time to any condition.

If you wanted Perfectly Reliable remove the Limitation.

[prestidigitator]

Re: combat luck when grabbed

 

I include most situations where the target is caught completely by surprise or reduced to 0 DCV.

[secretID]

Re: combat luck when grabbed

 

I include most situations where the target is caught completely by surprise or reduced to 0 DCV.

Wait - you mean you include them in the coverage, or include them in the exception/limitation?

 

I just asked Steve whether the list in the rules of when the lim applies is meant to be exhaustive.

 

How about this as a bright line: Combat Luck applies whenever Dodge, Block, Missile Deflection, or Dive for Cover could theoretically apply?