Er...

[Pteryx]

Strangely, Characteristics Usable By Other seem to cost a lot less than Succor -- less still if you make it cost END like Succor does. For example, +10 Ego Usable By Other is 25 points (17 if is Costs END), while Succor 7d6 is 35 points. I'm surprised to find a loophole of this size. Are there any similar "gotchas" a newbie should be aware of? -- Pteryx

[OddHat]

A "Martial Arts" multipower is usually a far better deal than actual Martial Arts if you have more than three or four maneuvers.

 

Characteristics bought with no figured characteristics and charges or costs end are a far better deal than Aid.

 

Overall levels are an incredibly good deal.

 

The Power Suit as Vehicle rules all.

[prestidigitator]

Originally posted by OddHat The Power Suit as Vehicle rules all.

 

Eh? How about 10 million 50-point Followers?

 

Actually, the newbie should probably watch out for frustrated GMs who have to deal with players who buy Powers to do what other Powers are primarily intended for.

 

At the worst, the GM might do bad things to you. At the best, the GM has read through every page of the rules (not to mention making some House Rules to boot). (S)he knows the difference between a Characteristic which is Usable by Others and an Aid in his/her campaign.

 

Do you? You sure? What about if you are knocked unconscious, or loose Light of Sight? How many people can your Characteristic affect at a time? Who has to pay the End for it, and does the End have to payed constantly, or only when the boost is bestowed?

 

I might even be able to poke solid holes in the example if I had the book in front of me. In any case, expect a pissed off GM to, and to exploit them for all they are worth.

 

Maybe I shouldn't make it sound so adversarial. In all likelihood, the GM will take one look at the points you are trying to squeeze out by doing something in a non-standard way, and just say, "Nah. Redo it correctly."

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Er...

 

Originally posted by Pteryx

Strangely, Characteristics Usable By Other seem to cost a lot less than Succor -- less still if you make it cost END like Succor does. For example, +10 Ego Usable By Other is 25 points (17 if is Costs END), while Succor 7d6 is 35 points. I'm surprised to find a loophole of this size. Are there any similar "gotchas" a newbie should be aware of? -- Pteryx

 

This (and the similar structure with Aid) is a bit of a pain. I find the cost a bit of a discrepancy myself. However, there is the fact that Aid/Succor can add to as many people as you want, where you need to buy extra targets for "usable by others" (+1/4 per doubling).

 

As well, if you want to add to your own stats as well, that's a further advantage (+1/4). Both Aid and UoO are no range, buy UoO also requires you to maintain line of sight, or pay for persistent. Finally, the END cost for UoO is computed with the full cost, including UoO advantages, so STR usable on others could become quite tiring.

 

After all that, I'm still not convinced the Aid approach (or succor) is superior. It's definitely worthless if you want to restrict the ability to self only. -1/2 does bring Aid near the cost of the characteristics, but they fade, and need attack actions to be replenished. eg. 3d6 STR aid, self only, costs 20 points, raises STR 18 at most, requires two attacks to achieve 18 (on average) and the 18 point boost fades with time.

 

It's likely more effective, however, in an NCM campaign, where the power raises the stats and the CHAR would cost double.

[Ndreare]

All the player needs is

 

"Stat", UoO, Uncontroled (+0-end if STR) and he has the perfect aid which will be far cheeper than aid ever was.

 

As a GM I would not reject the power construct either reguardless of meta rule #1

 

However I would require the "No-Figs" limitation be placed on the stat.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Ndreare

All the player needs is

 

"Stat", UoO, Uncontroled (+0-end if STR) and he has the perfect aid which will be far cheeper than aid ever was.

 

As a GM I would not reject the power construct either reguardless of meta rule #1

 

If we disallow that construct, wouldn't we have to disallow buying characteristics in the first place? "No, you can't BUY 10 CON. You have to buy Aid powers for CON, ED, REC, STUN and END. Read Meta Rule 1, you munchkin, you! "

[prestidigitator]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

If we disallow that construct, wouldn't we have to disallow buying characteristics in the first place? "No, you can't BUY 10 CON. You have to buy Aid powers for CON, ED, REC, STUN and END. Read Meta Rule 1, you munchkin, you! "

 

Not at all! The Aid power is designed for boosting other characters' characteristics and powers (using whatever modifications and special effects they posses). Usable on Others is designed for temporarily giving other characters powers they would normally not have (well, may not have).

 

If you are using Characteristics, which are really intented to be self only, to do exactly what the Aid power is designed for, that is wrong. I will grant that there may be circumstances that a Characteristic which is UoO makes sense, like maybe a hugh Str which you can temporarily lend to someone else, but replacing Aid just to save points is a blatant misuse of the system.

 

Now buying extra Characteristics for yourself is different, because that's how they are intended to work. Then again, buying them as a power just to get past Normal Characteristic Maxima, and making them Cost End and be Uncontrolled I would probably also classify as something which should be done with Aid, but I think I would be less picky about it, because Aid and Characteristics can both normally benefit the character who owns the power.

[Nightshade]

In order to do this, one would have to be willing to treat Characteristics as powers and allow Usable by Others in their game. If your game does not allow one or the other of these, then you don't have to worry about it. If you do, then you have some issues with how to make Aid more viable than buying the characteristics this way.

 

Nightshade

 

PS BTW, characteristics are not treated as powers in my fantasy game. I might allow it in my Champions game, along with usable by others. I allow characteristics as powers in my Star HERO game, but not usable by others.

[Dust Raven]

I don't like the UBO Characteristics idea. It sounds cheep, but I don't think so. For the full effect, you would need to buy up the number of targets significently. Without the Range Advantage, the Characteristics will fade past physical contact, and without Persistant, they will fade upon loss of LOS.

 

Or, you can just buy Aid/Succor and be done with it. Save the UBO stuff for those cases when Aid just doesn't do what you want it to.

[tesuji]

the best case of the hero 5 silliness regarding characteristics vs aid and the like is seen in several places with the FIGHTING ARRAY.

 

The power as described is intended to represent how two fighters trained to work togehter fight better together...

 

it is officially bought and recommended as an ADI to dex with IPE and 0 end and only with such and such range and self only and only to affect cv. it runs 24 real points for 3d6 aid. So IF the character spends several half phases he can raise his dex for CV only by +6 for a short time.

 

24 points.

 

buying +6 dex that works for all purposes ever and ever costs 18 points and it gives you figured charc speed points as well.

 

Somewhere in HERO 5, the notion of "but it ought to make some sense" where you scan the results of the complex build process after its done not to see if you did the math right but to see if the result is right.

 

It doesn't matter if you follow the 500 page manual on how to make tires to the letter if you do not stop to look at the end and see that the tire you produced is SQUARE instead of round.

[mapineda]

Isn't it true, though that a character benefiting from a characteristic UBO would have to factor in Normal Characteristic Maxima (assuming the benefiting character possesses it) whereas, in the same situation, with AID the Disadvantage is not applied?

[Rene]

Originally posted by tesuji

Somewhere in HERO 5, the notion of "but it ought to make some sense" where you scan the results of the complex build process after its done not to see if you did the math right but to see if the result is right.

 

It doesn't matter if you follow the 500 page manual on how to make tires to the letter if you do not stop to look at the end and see that the tire you produced is SQUARE instead of round.

 

I agree.

 

But I don't think that is so much a problem with the system, but with how Steve Long chose to interpret certain effects.

 

The Fighting Array is a fine example of overcomplicating what could be simulated pretty painlessly with CVs bought with certain Limitations. Sometimes the most obvious way to build something is the right way too, you know. Fighting Arrays and watching your enemy fight to gain a bonus are both best simulated with Skills, not Aid.

 

Another thing I disagree with is Entangles used to represent stuff like Gravitic Attacks. Needlessly messy. Use Limited Telekinesis (Only to Pin Opponent Down) instead. Think about it, it just makes no sense that the Human Torch should be able to burn his way out of a Gravitic Attack.

 

I also don't like BOECV Entangles. "Mind Control, Set Command: Freeze" takes care of everything pretty nicely without the hideously expensive BOECV Advantage.

[Pteryx]

Originally posted by Rene

Another thing I disagree with is Entangles used to represent stuff like Gravitic Attacks. Needlessly messy. Use Limited Telekinesis (Only to Pin Opponent Down) instead. Think about it, it just makes no sense that the Human Torch should be able to burn his way out of a Gravitic Attack.

 

I also don't like BOECV Entangles. "Mind Control, Set Command: Freeze" takes care of everything pretty nicely without the hideously expensive BOECV Advantage.

 

I'll have to remember those. And look and see how TK, Only Downward compares with a UAA Ranged Density Increase with linked Drain STR... (And figure out what "Only Downward" and "Only to Pin" would be worth anyway.) -- Pteryx

[Rene]

Originally posted by Pteryx

I'll have to remember those. And look and see how TK, Only Downward compares with a UAA Ranged Density Increase with linked Drain STR... (And figure out what "Only Downward" and "Only to Pin" would be worth anyway.) -- Pteryx

 

The problem with Drain STR used to represent gravitic attacks is that Drains take a bit too long for the victim to recover, plus they require the Ranged Advantage too. TK represents the effects more elegantly. I imagine "Only to Pin" would be about -1. So you could do a 60 STR Grab for 45 pts. Not too unbalanced. It would cost a bit more if you added stuff like Uncontrolled and Invisible Power Effects.

[badger3k]

Originally posted by mapineda

Isn't it true, though that a character benefiting from a characteristic UBO would have to factor in Normal Characteristic Maxima (assuming the benefiting character possesses it) whereas, in the same situation, with AID the Disadvantage is not applied?

 

Actually, if I understand it correctly, AID gives you character points. If you add 2d6 to STR, you can get 2-12 cp worth of STR. If it would bring STR over 20 (and you have NCM), then I think the cost in cp is still doubled. I'd rule the char UBO as the same situation (+10 STR to a 15 STR character would give him a 22.5 STR - 15 + 5 + (5/2).

 

Or maybe that's just my interpretation. Anyone know or do it different?

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by badger3k

Actually, if I understand it correctly, AID gives you character points. If you add 2d6 to STR, you can get 2-12 cp worth of STR. If it would bring STR over 20 (and you have NCM), then I think the cost in cp is still doubled. I'd rule the char UBO as the same situation (+10 STR to a 15 STR character would give him a 22.5 STR - 15 + 5 + (5/2).

 

Or maybe that's just my interpretation. Anyone know or do it different?

 

I believe the NCM rules apply to chartacteristics so anything bought as a power gets around it. There's a 4th Ed character, Defender, with NCM and a whack of bonus characteristics purchased through a focus, for example, and he doesn't pay extra for the "power" characteristics.

[prestidigitator]

Originally posted by Pteryx

I'll have to remember those. And look and see how TK, Only Downward compares with a UAA Ranged Density Increase with linked Drain STR... (And figure out what "Only Downward" and "Only to Pin" would be worth anyway.) -- Pteryx

What? You didn't read the "Flight, Usable as Attack," example in the book? TK, Entangle, and/or Drain Str are definitely the way to go, based on the exact effect you are trying to achieve.

 

Entangle may well be a viable option, if the target merely needs to exert enough force upward to "break" the field, in which case (s)he is free to move.... A somewhat common four-color comic book type scenario, although one that can result in some brain pain. Eh.

 

If the Density Increase really was meant to make them heavier (so, for example, they would fall through weak flooring), use the TK. I don't think you really want to give them extra PD, etc., and by the time you slap on Limitations to the Density Increase to take away everything you don't want to give them, it starts to look really cheesy. But then, you could very well be joking here, in which case I think you should consider Clinging, Usable as Attack, linked with RKA, Area of Effect: One Hex, Only Against Surface Target of Clinging is Sticking To....

[PhilFleischmann]

And why are "fighting arrays" bought with IPE at all? If two people are cooperatively fighting, can't you see that they're cooperating? Can't an observer notice the skill with which they fight? Often, that's half the fun!

 

"You can observe a lot just by watching." --Yogi Berra

[Pteryx]

Originally posted by prestidigitator

If the Density Increase really was meant to make them heavier (so, for example, they would fall through weak flooring), use the TK.

 

Indeed, that was exactly the point (though the example I thought of was making someone on a rope bridge so heavy that the whole thing breaks ). It'd be good for slowing someone down (see the Encumbrance table on page 250 of FREd), but not for stopping them. What's a good Limitation value for "Cannot Lift"? I'm inclined to guess -1/4... -- Pteryx

[badger3k]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

I believe the NCM rules apply to chartacteristics so anything bought as a power gets around it. There's a 4th Ed character, Defender, with NCM and a whack of bonus characteristics purchased through a focus, for example, and he doesn't pay extra for the "power" characteristics.

 

Haven't looked at the character, but from what I remember he had all powers through foci. I can't tell if the character paid full (inc. doubled) price then adjusted them down for the focus limitation. It doesn't make sense to get NCM as a disadvantage if you just buy a power that ignores it. Where's the disadvantage then?

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by badger3k

Haven't looked at the character, but from what I remember he had all powers through foci. I can't tell if the character paid full (inc. doubled) price then adjusted them down for the focus limitation. It doesn't make sense to get NCM as a disadvantage if you just buy a power that ignores it. Where's the disadvantage then?

 

He got normal (no NCM) price plus the focus limitation. The only way I can support the disad is "sometimes he won't have the suit", but then isn't that why he got limitation points?

 

I agree - where's the disad. Thgen again, if my character is all based on superpowers and NCM doesn;t change the characteristics he would have bought anyway, why is it a disad? If my FH character would be an aged wizard with no physical stats above 10, I get 10 Disad points for being able to buy my key stats to 30 without paying double!

[prestidigitator]

I believe the Disadvantage lies in how you are able to buy the Characteristics. For example, I probably wouldn't allow someone to buy Characteristics as a power (particularly in a superheroic game) unless it had Limitations like Focus, Extra End (or Costs End), Continuing Charges, etc. I would probably also allow Characteristics bought as powers to be Dispelled, even though Characteristics are normally immune to this (because it's really a Power in this case...).

 

I don't think there's much arguing with it (except with House Rules); FREd says explicitly (although I don't have it, so I can't site page and section) that Adjustment Powers and Characteristics bought as Powers do not pay double for points over normal maxima. For that matter, I know this has been the case since at least 4th edition. It makes sense to me, too, because if I am creating a spell which doubles a character's Str (Aid: 2d6 Str, Standard Effect; or maybe +5 Str, OAF, Extra End), I don't want to have to worry about whether any particular character I am casting it upon (or who learns the spell) has bought their Str up to the maximum or not....

 

You could probably debate the validity of Normal Characteristic Maxima as a Disadvantage for characters who don't want high stats anyway. So what do you do? Force anyone who wants to take the Disadvantage to buy at least one Characteristic over the maximum imposed by the Disadvantage?

 

I think this is why the Disadvantage is worth few points; it does flesh out the character, in that you get an idea of the kind of powers/disadvantages/concepts upon which (s)he is built, but the Disadvantage isn't worth as much as it should be if it were fully limiting the character. For example, if you add up the difference (half the costs of buying down the Chars the appropriate amount, and the full price for buying the maxima up) between normal and 65+, the Disadvantage is not worth nearly this much....

[Hugh Neilson]

Let's be honest. Given the choice, people who have less than 20 points in "over NCM" characteristics are the only ones who will take NCM. The disad could vanish and I wouldn't miss it. Just impose it in heroic level campaigns (that's why it was created in the first place).

[badger3k]

Originally posted by prestidigitator

I don't think there's much arguing with it (except with House Rules); FREd says explicitly (although I don't have it, so I can't site page and section) that Adjustment Powers and Characteristics bought as Powers do not pay double for points over normal maxima.

 

Got a chance to look it up - Adjustment is on p 74, Characteristics is on p 92. Doubt that will change the way I play, but I'll have to look at it.