END Reserve 6e

[Sean Waters]

Interesting to note that END Reserve has substantially changed cost: at 1 point for 4 END it is MUCH more expensive than previously, especially given the change in END cost. REC costs .667 character points per point: again a price hike if you consider the new cost of REC.

 

END Reserve has advantages: you recover even if you would not normally get a recovery (VERY unconscious, suffocating, etc), so it is like REC bought with Persistent (+1/4)*: that would cost 1.25 points per 1 REC, and 'Only for END recovery' which has to be -1 (at least): final cost 0.625 per point: close enough.

 

END in a reserve is not any different from END outside of a reserve though, as far as I can see: why should there be a cost differential?

 

Moreover there are problems with END Reserve: you already have END and REC: you have to buy it again you're paying twice and - as you have to decide where the END comes from for any given power (and con only change if the power has an advantage - expensive - it seems less and less like a bargain.

 

It might be OK for concept realisation, but I'm still not convinced we have this quite right: anyone got any insight on the costing decision? I accept that the price may have been too low before but this seems like overcompensation.

 

 

 

*REC is already partially persistent - it DOES work when you are unconscious, but not always as frequently: buying the advantage should address that though. Arguably even that would not allow you to recover whilst suffocating, but LS: SCB is only 10 points and makes suffocating something that happens to other people.

[ghost-angel]

Re: END Reserve 6e

 

END Reserve is not reduced to 0 when you are unconscious.

 

If you had 50 END in the Reserve when you reach 0 Stun, you have 50 when you reach 1 Stun.

 

With normal Stun your END is reduced to 0 when your Stun is reduced to 0.

 

That is a significant advantage in many cases.

[Wanderer]

Re: END Reserve 6e

 

as you have to decide where the END comes from for any given power (and con only change if the power has an advantage - expensive - it seems less and less like a bargain.

 

Mind it, you have official stamp of approval on the option to make powers tap both sources of END without any need for such an advantage, whenever it fits with common sense. Typically, it does in most cases, such as mage spells and internalized metahuman powers. Honestly, I'd never call for using such an advantage, except for technolological and magical devices.

[Sean Waters]

Re: END Reserve 6e

 

END Reserve is not reduced to 0 when you are unconscious.

 

If you had 50 END in the Reserve when you reach 0 Stun, you have 50 when you reach 1 Stun.

 

With normal Stun your END is reduced to 0 when your Stun is reduced to 0.

 

That is a significant advantage in many cases.

 

...well, yes, but...

 

in most cases you are reduced to unconsciousness by enemy action, and being unconscious they get a pretty free reign to do what they want to you. The fact your force field is still running (or that you wake up with enough END to use it, or an attack) may be of limited use, given that it did not save you from unconsciousness. It certainly does not seem enough of an advantage to explain the substantial re-valuing of the power.

[ghost-angel]

Re: END Reserve 6e

 

I disagree. So there we are.

 

I can't count the times in combat I'd liked to have regain-consciousness with full END. Or any END. Especially in Heroic games.

[Sean Waters]

Re: END Reserve 6e

 

I disagree. So there we are.

 

I can't count the times in combat I'd liked to have regain-consciousness with full END. Or any END. Especially in Heroic games.

 

Nonetheless, to go from 1 'normal' END being 5x as expensive as 1 ER END to 1 normal END being LESS expensive than 1 ER END is quite a big leap.

 

It substantially changes (I'd have thought) the use to which END Reserves will be put. Even in absolute terms, 1 ER END is now 2.5x as expensive as it was. It is not something I recall much concern over from the vox pop in 5th.

[Lucius]

Re: END Reserve 6e

 

Nonetheless, to go from 1 'normal' END being 5x as expensive as 1 ER END to 1 normal END being LESS expensive than 1 ER END is quite a big leap.

 

It substantially changes (I'd have thought) the use to which END Reserves will be put. Even in absolute terms, 1 ER END is now 2.5x as expensive as it was. It is not something I recall much concern over from the vox pop in 5th.

 

It was mentioned, but it didn't have the controversy some other issues did.

 

I was more or less in favor of putting both kinds of END at 1//10

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary still thinks it should be the last listed Characteristic

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: END Reserve 6e

 

in most cases you are reduced to unconsciousness by enemy action' date=' and being unconscious they get a pretty free reign to do what they want to you. The fact your force field is still running (or that you wake up with enough END to use it, or an attack) may be of limited use, given that it did not save you from unconsciousness. It certainly does not seem enough of an advantage to explain the substantial re-valuing of the power.[/quote']

 

You still pay to make your Force Field persistent, though. If that has no benefit, why the cost?

 

The END in an END Reserve is persistent. It is, as such, better than normal END. It has no offsetting drawback, so it seems reasonable for it to be more expensive. The Recovery is limited, not the END.

 

Nonetheless' date=' to go from 1 'normal' END being 5x as expensive as 1 ER END to 1 normal END being LESS expensive than 1 ER END is quite a big leap.[/quote']

 

In 5e, I would generally have a 23 or so CON, and round my END up to 50. I should have been selling it back to zero (25 points) and buying a 100 point END battery with 15 REC, or 150 point END battery with 10 REC. I'd have lasted much longer in combat. And I'd never wake up without enough END to run my force field, move and attack!

 

Now, the cost seems more representative of the utility.

[Sean Waters]

Re: END Reserve 6e

 

You still pay to make your Force Field persistent' date=' though. If that has no benefit, why the cost?[/quote']

 

It has benefit but only if you have END (or do not need END) to power it.

 

The END in an END Reserve is persistent. It is' date=' as such, better than normal END. It has no offsetting drawback, so it seems reasonable for it to be more expensive. The Recovery is limited, not the END.[/quote']

 

Yet that doesn't recognise that you have to buy your END reserve separately: If you buy +20 END and make it persistent, that will cost you 5 points, the same as in an END reserve, but then you do not have to worry about which 'pool' your END comes from, and you can access up to 40 END, 20 of which will automatically be available on waking. And REC is more expensive, even considering adding Persistent.

 

Why not just make your END and REC persistsent: it is cheaper and more efficient - do we need END Reserve at all?

 

 

 

In 5e, I would generally have a 23 or so CON, and round my END up to 50. I should have been selling it back to zero (25 points) and buying a 100 point END battery with 15 REC, or 150 point END battery with 10 REC. I'd have lasted much longer in combat. And I'd never wake up without enough END to run my force field, move and attack!

 

Now, the cost seems more representative of the utility.

 

I agree that the cost was in need of adjusting in 5e, I'm just not sure that we have gone a little too far - see comments above about cost and utility.

 

I also have doubts as well about the relative utility of END Recovery against unlimited Recovery: REC allows you to recover Stun and END (and Body - but that is usually not a major consideration). Of the two, recovering Stun is MUCH more useful than recovering END: it keeps you consciousm, it is more expensive, and it can be used as END: the limitation value for 'END Only' on REC should be greater than -1, IMO.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: END Reserve 6e

 

It has benefit but only if you have END (or do not need END) to power it.

 

Persistent powers typically are bought to 0 END first. You then pay an extra +1/2 to make it Persistent. [i think 6e allows for buying persistent without 0 END, but no prior edition did. END battery END could keep powering such a persistent power while regular END could not.]

 

Yet that doesn't recognise that you have to buy your END reserve separately: If you buy +20 END and make it persistent' date=' that will cost you 5 points, the same as in an END reserve, but then you do not have to worry about which 'pool' your END comes from, and you can access up to 40 END, 20 of which will automatically be available on waking. And REC is more expensive, even considering adding Persistent.[/quote']

 

Or I can sell back my base 20 END, buy more END for the Reserve with the savings and define all my abilities as coming from the END reserve. Now all my END is persistent and I can access 36 END, I believe, all of which is persistent. And I don't have to argue with the GM over whether the persistent or nonpersistent END gets spent first.

 

 

Why not just make your END and REC persistsent: it is cheaper and more efficient - do we need END Reserve at all?

 

I agree that the cost was in need of adjusting in 5e, I'm just not sure that we have gone a little too far - see comments above about cost and utility.

 

I also have doubts as well about the relative utility of END Recovery against unlimited Recovery: REC allows you to recover Stun and END (and Body - but that is usually not a major consideration). Of the two, recovering Stun is MUCH more useful than recovering END: it keeps you consciousm, it is more expensive, and it can be used as END: the limitation value for 'END Only' on REC should be greater than -1, IMO.

 

The REC pricing is a bit harder to assess, and we'll see how it plays out in practice. END Reserve REC also can't be used by taking a Recovery action. However, I doubt I would ever allow a player to make his REC persistent, allowing a recovery every phase (or even every turn) at -40 STUN.

[Sean Waters]

Re: END Reserve 6e

 

Persistent powers typically are bought to 0 END first. You then pay an extra +1/2 to make it Persistent. [i think 6e allows for buying persistent without 0 END' date= but no prior edition did. END battery END could keep powering such a persistent power while regular END could not.]

 

+1/4 now. There's no real reason you can not simply buy 'persistent' for your regular END though - then it works when you are unconscious and does not simply 'go away': seems like a better solution in some ways than an END Reserve.

 

I can think of one reason you might want to keep some real END though: drowning - you can not (I assume) define your END loss from suffocation from an END Reserve.

 

 

 

Or I can sell back my base 20 END' date=' buy more END for the Reserve with the savings and define all my abilities as coming from the END reserve. Now all my END is persistent and I can access 36 END, I believe, all of which is persistent. And I don't have to argue with the GM over whether the persistent or nonpersistent END gets spent first.[/quote']

 

...but then you also have to buy up the REC, and you are 'doubling up' that: you already have REC, and whilst you could put a limitation on it (if the GM allowed) you can not sell that back or you don't recover Stun or Body.

 

 

 

 

The REC pricing is a bit harder to assess' date=' and we'll see how it plays out in practice. END Reserve REC also can't be used by taking a Recovery action. However, I doubt I would ever allow a player to make his REC persistent, allowing a recovery every phase (or even every turn) at -40 STUN.[/quote']

 

You can sort of do that with a self only END heal: mind you once a phase 15 END is 50 points, so not too practical, unless you have it in a triggered MP slot (activating when you are unconscious):

Healing END 2d6 (standard effect: 6 points), Persistent (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Constant (+1/2), Decreased Re-use Duration (1 Turn; +1 1/2) (75 Active Points); Self Only (-1/2)

 

 

Mind you that is not much of an issue anyway - unless you have exhausted your END Reserve before you fall over.

[Rapier]

Re: END Reserve 6e

 

END Reserve is not reduced to 0 when you are unconscious.

 

If you had 50 END in the Reserve when you reach 0 Stun, you have 50 when you reach 1 Stun.

 

With normal Stun your END is reduced to 0 when your Stun is reduced to 0.

 

That is a significant advantage in many cases.

 

My character these days actually has nothing that draws on his END. Everything (and I do mean everything) comes out of the Reserve. He's got some Disads that an empty Reserve does damage and all...you get the idea.

 

He's also just growing into his powers and is a wee, teensy bit overconfident. Thusly, he tends to spend a fair amount of time unconscious.

 

The fact that his Reserve doesn't hit 0 is a HUGE benefit. I was just unconscious for most of the last session. I hit positive STUN and took a double REC (gotta love that post-12). I may have only been at 11 STUN but I could fire off a full on hard core 15d6 Electro-Punch without concern.

 

If I had to pay for that END out of my END (and not the Reserve) I would have to moderate my power use. Consider if I had 4 STUN after that last REC. 4 END? If I attack right away, I'm back to unconscious.

 

Having the Reserve allows me to get right back into combat without delay. HUUUUUGE effect.

 

And even I will admit that 5E END Reserve is quite a deal!

[Sean Waters]

Re: END Reserve 6e

 

My character these days actually has nothing that draws on his END. Everything (and I do mean everything) comes out of the Reserve. He's got some Disads that an empty Reserve does damage and all...you get the idea.

 

He's also just growing into his powers and is a wee, teensy bit overconfident. Thusly, he tends to spend a fair amount of time unconscious.

 

The fact that his Reserve doesn't hit 0 is a HUGE benefit. I was just unconscious for most of the last session. I hit positive STUN and took a double REC (gotta love that post-12). I may have only been at 11 STUN but I could fire off a full on hard core 15d6 Electro-Punch without concern.

 

If I had to pay for that END out of my END (and not the Reserve) I would have to moderate my power use. Consider if I had 4 STUN after that last REC. 4 END? If I attack right away, I'm back to unconscious.

 

Having the Reserve allows me to get right back into combat without delay. HUUUUUGE effect.

 

And even I will admit that 5E END Reserve is quite a deal!

 

A 15d6 attack draws 7 END*, which means you could have attacked and still been in positive END. A second attack would have seen you burning Stun, but how heroic is that? You'd have been straight back in the combat anyway.

 

Are you still as keen on that setup though with the 6e END Reserve replacing the (much cheaper) 5e version?

 

 

*Unless you have an increased END power drawing from an END reserve - dodgy...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: END Reserve 6e

 

A 15d6 attack draws 7 END*, which means you could have attacked and still been in positive END. A second attack would have seen you burning Stun, but how heroic is that? You'd have been straight back in the combat anyway.

 

Are you still as keen on that setup though with the 6e END Reserve replacing the (much cheaper) 5e version?

 

 

*Unless you have an increased END power drawing from an END reserve - dodgy...

 

7 END plus anything paid for movement and/or defensive powers. And, with the price of END for the reserve now back to a reasonable level, is it dodgy to have powers that cost extra END draw on the reserve? Perhaps the fact it was an issue before is another indicator that the END was considerably underpriced.

[Sean Waters]

Re: END Reserve 6e

 

7 END plus anything paid for movement and/or defensive powers. And' date=' with the price of END for the reserve now back to a reasonable level, is it dodgy to have powers that cost extra END draw on the reserve? Perhaps the fact it was an issue before is another indicator that the END was considerably underpriced.[/quote']

 

 

I'd agree it was underpriced before, the question is whether it is correctly priced now.

[prestidigitator]

Re: END Reserve 6e

 

I just built a power armor character. At first I tried making him with an End Reserve. Finally I just put Charges and Reduced Endurance: 0 End on everything. It was far simpler and a heck of a lot cheaper. I guess he won't be able to Push things without a GM exemption (ah well, I'll probably be the GM anyway), but oh well. End Reserve just isn't worth it IMO.