Univeral Focus in 6E

[hammersickle59]

Ok....so if your universal focus gets stolen/destroyed.....you permanently lose the character points? (playing in Superheroic game)

 

Thats my read of it.

 

Dean

[ghost-angel]

Re: Univeral Focus in 6E

 

Man What?

 

You have a page and paragraph reference for that?

[hammersickle59]

Re: Univeral Focus in 6E

 

Page 380 under Applicability.

 

It doesn't specify that you lose the character points. But what happens to them? Your item was just destroyed. There is no more "independent" limitation in 6E.

 

If you dont lose the points then how do you adjudicate how quickly that can "rebuild" they're unique all powerful artifact? One issue is that if a character bought a really good item....and now he wants a different one....he just chucks it in the trash...miraculously his points comes back...and he builds a different artifact.

 

Independent was clear about point loss. But now thats gone.

 

?

 

Dean

[ajackson]

Re: Univeral Focus in 6E

 

You want to look at breakability, page 379. A stolen focus is basically the same as a broken focus, other than the potential nature of the quest to recover an unbreakable focus.

[hammersickle59]

Re: Univeral Focus in 6E

 

Thanks for the reference.

 

What about replacing the lost item with a different item of equal points? (aka building a different instead of the same one). I assume its just GM's call; they dont seem to mention that.

 

Dean

[ghost-angel]

Re: Univeral Focus in 6E

 

It mentions NOTHING about points lost under Applicability. It doesn't even mention losing the Focus under that header. I've no idea where you're getting this from.

 

If you're reading further ahead to OTHER NOTES it mentions losing the Focus and those are the Exact Same Words from 5th Edition. Focus hasn't changed in use.

 

I don't know where you're getting this from, but you've managed to read way way too far into it.

[hammersickle59]

Re: Univeral Focus in 6E

 

This brings about a new question. Is there any way in 6E to build an item that CAN be permanently lost and you lose the character points?

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but 5E had the Independent Lim for that, but now that Lim is no longer there.

 

Dean

[JmOz]

Re: Univeral Focus in 6E

 

This brings about a new question. Is there any way in 6E to build an item that CAN be permanently lost and you lose the character points?

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but 5E had the Independent Lim for that, but now that Lim is no longer there.

 

Dean

 

I think that the concept of loosing points has kind of droped to the wayside. Good riddence, it causes problems of party balance IMO

[ghost-angel]

Re: Univeral Focus in 6E

 

Independent is no longer in the rules.

 

If you need it, then use it. Nothing against you adding it back in, or using something similar to it.

[Tasha]

Re: Univeral Focus in 6E

 

Ok....so if your universal focus gets stolen/destroyed.....you permanently lose the character points? (playing in Superheroic game)

 

Thats my read of it.

 

Dean

 

Losing points really isn't a staple of any decent Hero game. Independent was a limitation that was NOT made for Superheroic games. It was something that was there for a mechanic to create magic items for a Fantasy Hero game.

 

Some people abused the Independent limitation by using it in Superheroic games. It's something that should be gone from the system and thankfully Steve Removed it. Characters shouldn't ever lose their powerpoints. They might become temporarally depowered, but they should always be allowed to rebuild their characters with the same amount of points (base +exp)they had when the depowering happened

 

Now having your powersuit destroyed and then rebuilding it differently (ie upgrading it) is a staple of the genre. Heck IronMan redesigns his powersuit regularly and regularly gets it shot to pieces and destroyed.

 

Tasha

[ghost-angel]

Re: Univeral Focus in 6E

 

I personally had never found even an acceptable use for Independent in any game or any genre until I read the Equipment and Resource Pool rules in the 5th Ed. Dark Champions.

 

Then I used it to drop Real Point Cost and shove more into the Equipment Pool without needing to raise the pool points.

[Tasha]

Re: Univeral Focus in 6E

 

I personally had never found even an acceptable use for Independent in any game or any genre until I read the Equipment and Resource Pool rules in the 5th Ed. Dark Champions.

 

Then I used it to drop Real Point Cost and shove more into the Equipment Pool without needing to raise the pool points.

 

FH 1E was where Independent was invented. It was created so characters could spend XP to fuel Magic Item Creation (BTW Monte Cook borrowed that for 3rd ed D&D), buy using independent the item could be made cheap enough that the XP expendature wasn't too insane. It became part of the core rules in 4e when Hero went to the Universal system. It was explained there that it was not to be used in a superheroic game.

 

Of course, munchkins jumped on the limit sensing that most GM's wouldn't rip a character's heart out by destroying an independent item.

 

It is actually one of the few things that I will flat out say no to if I see it on a character.

 

Glad it's gone from the base system. Good riddence!

 

Tasha

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Univeral Focus in 6E

 

Of course' date=' munchkins jumped on the limit sensing that most GM's wouldn't rip a character's heart out by destroying an independent item.[/quote']

 

I suspect the munchkin didn't care one way or the other. If all my powers are Independent (let's assume 250 of my 350 points), I leverage up to 750 + 100 points of powers, so 850. My independent item gets destroyed/stolen? Time for a new character...whose powers are also independent. Munchkins tend not to be too attached to characters, especially if they get de-powered.

[Vondy]

Re: Univeral Focus in 6E

 

If you dont lose the points then how do you adjudicate how quickly that can "rebuild" they're unique all powerful artifact?

 

Shiqul Daat: use common sense. The unique unbreakable item that was destroyed in some heroic moment of crowning glory goes away, but the points don't. Either the character has to go on a quest to reforge/recover/remcgufffin it, or they end up using the points in some other way agreed upon with the GM between sessions, hopefully providing some dramatic story hook for an adventure. For less unique, more common items, just do what makes the most sense. They may have to go to their armory, meet an arms dealer, find a way to scrounge the cash, fill out a requisition form, order one from the manufacturer, etc.

[Vondy]

Re: Univeral Focus in 6E

 

It is actually one of the few things that I will flat out say no to if I see it on a character.

 

Its one of the few hard-coded "verboten" things in my campaign guidelines (usu.).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Univeral Focus in 6E

 

Shiqul Daat: use common sense. The unique unbreakable item that was destroyed in some heroic moment of crowning glory goes away' date=' but the points don't. Either the character has to go on a quest to reforge/recover/remcgufffin it, or they end up using the points in some other way agreed upon with the GM between sessions, hopefully providing some dramatic story hook for an adventure. For less unique, more common items, just do what makes the most sense. They may have to go to their armory, meet an arms dealer, find a way to scrounge the cash, fill out a requisition form, order one from the manufacturer, etc.[/quote']

 

Great comments. In addition to common sense, there's a lot of dramatic sense in there as well.

 

There are mundane ways to replace mundane items. The amount of time I'd spend on replacing the item in-game would depend a lot on the significance of the item to the game.

 

The fact that an item was unique, and unbreakable, seems also to make it very unusual. Given that, I can't see coming up with a "one size fits all" model for dealing with its loss. A quest to get the item back would be unique to the nature of the item. If it's not going to be recovered, the manner in which the points get spent would also vary with the situation - including how and why the item was destroyed, the nature of the item itself and even the character's history and capabilities ignoring the item. This is a good opportunity for a significant character rewrite stemming from the loss of the item. Regardless, it's a great opportunity for a plotline that puts some focus on the character who lost the item - a bit of spotlight time as a reward for the temporary loss of power seems a very reasonable tradeoff.

[Rapier]

Re: Univeral Focus in 6E

 

I've been around long enough to believe that Tasha's impression is correct. Independent was most likely extremely abused by the munchkin crowd.

 

However, the kinder gentler side of me admits that it is possible that Independent was very misunderstood. Yes, it was intended as a FH/Heroic thing only.

 

However, I've got this power. It's a 2d6 RKA AF5. It's really cool. It looks like some kind of blaster ray gun. AND it's got this OAF Limitation. So Mooky the Guard runs into me and I drop it. He picks it up and aims it at me and pulls the trigger. Except NOTHING happens! Because I paid the points for it and he didn't! LOOOOOSER! He hands the same gun to me (since it doesn't work) and I turn it around and BLAST HIM SILLY!

 

At some point most of us have tried to learn a new system solely through reading the rulebooks. It's not easy. It's confusing and before the Internet (and even now, since most companies don't have the exposure to the Line Developers like DOJ) there was really no where to go for answers.

 

I can easily see people trying to find a way to allow my blaster ray to be used by anyone, which, by a strict read is exactly what Independent did. Now, it's easy for us to point and rolls our eyes and mutter 'dramatic license' and the rest, but it's rather possible (even likely) that in a number of cases it was simply a misunderstanding.

 

At any rate, I'm glad it's gone!