fair cost for strength that isn't strong

[Hyper-Man]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

It just occurred to me that your proposed build does not, based on the rules as written, accomplish your goal. Unless I am misrecalling, a limitation on Strength automatically removes the figured characteristics unless that limitation also limits the figured characteristics (perhaps some kind soul with ready access to the books will post a page reference).

 

"Does not lift" does not limit PD, STUN or REC. None of those characteristics are used for lifting. Therefore, your STR with "does not lift" automatically removes Figured's. Being a kindly GM, I would likely allow you to add "No Figured". You might want to house rule an exception (narrow or broad) to that rule about limited STR, but your solution does not, by the actual rules, bring the desired results.

 

From 5er, page 139:

 

If he buys a Primary Characteristic with a Limitation, the Primary Characteristic also affects the Figured Characteristics normally. However, any Figured Characteristics gained from a Limited Primary Characteristic are automatically subject to the same Limitation(s). If the Limitation does not restrict the Figured Characteristics, then the Limited Primary Characteristic does not add to the Figured Characteristics and may not take the No Figured Characteristics Limitation.

 

So it appears that, according to RAW, a Limitation on STR that still allows that STR to get figured characteristics usually can't have a value more than (-0).

[Ki-rin]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

From 5er, page 139:

 

 

 

So it appears that, according to RAW, a Limitation on STR that still allows that STR to get figured characteristics usually can't have a value more than (-0).

I've got something that works elegantly, and is game balanced, for this concept.

 

I'm not F'ing with it. No matter what the book says

[Ki-rin]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

Let's forget experience for a moment. Let's work with a starting version of Superman instead. STR in the range of 45-75 (depending on how he uses his multipower).

Please post the 5ed rules on

NND,

Called Shots,

Blow Through,

and Pulling a Blow

as well as the Hit Location Table

if you want to get into specifics.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

I note that you still haven't really given a concrete answer to my earlier superman question.

 

Let's make it a little easier by reversing the scenario.

 

Let's start with a normal human (with NCM) who happens to be an expert martial artist. Besides having 20+ points worth of maneuvers he also has +4 Damage Classes (16 points). IIRC that equates to 4d6 NND martial maneuvers (by RAW, STR doesn't add) and 1d6+1 Killing Strike base damage (in this case, according to RAW, STR can be used to increase the damage. up to double the base damage).

 

Using your house rules how much NND damage does this character do with NND based martial maneuvers?

 

Let's say this 'normal human' obtains 'super-strength' (say +40 STR) by some means (how doesn't matter). How much NND damage does he do then?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

Please post the 5ed rules on

NND,

Called Shots,

Blow Through,

and Pulling a Blow

as well as the Hit Location Table

if you want to get into specifics.

 

Why do I need to worry about anything other than NND?

Per the NND martial maneuvers descriptions, they don't use hit location rules.

NND attacks by definition don't do BODY damage. Pulling a punch shouldn't be necessary.

[Ki-rin]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

I note that you still haven't really given a concrete answer to my earlier superman question?

I'm trying to. That's why I wanted you to post the requested reference material.

 

The bottom line is that you can't apply more than 1-2x the BODY of a Hit Location in NND damage without risking the actual physical destruction of the Hit Location in question.

 

As I said, at some point a Grip becomes a Crush. A Choke becomes structural damage. Etc.

 

Even in the real world, too much NND to a Hit Location can and does destroy said locale and often results in crippling or death.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

I'm trying to. That's why I wanted you to post the requested reference material.

 

The bottom line is that you can't apply more than 1-2x the BODY of a Hit Location in NND damage without risking the actual physical destruction of the Hit Location in question.

 

As I said, at some point a Grip becomes a Crush. A Choke becomes structural damage. Etc.

 

Even in the real world, too much NND to a Hit Location can and does destroy said locale and often results in crippling or death.

 

I have and understand the 5er rules quite well.

 

I am just trying to understand your house rule modifications to them and why you think they are necessary. If you don't even have 5e/5er I guess that isn't really possible.

[Ki-rin]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

I have and understand the 5er rules quite well.

 

I am just trying to understand your house rule modifications to them and why you think they are necessary. If you don't even have 5e/5er I guess that isn't really possible.

You seem to have misunderstood. I want to make sure that we are both using exactly the same source material in order to give you concrete answers to your questions.

 

The only way to do that is for you to post what your game is going to be using.

 

Absent that, the best I can do that is objective is to tell you that doing enough NND that if it would result in Blow Through if it was ND or KD means you are doing structurally destructive damage.

 

This number obviously varies according to the Hit Location and the amount of BODY of the target. IIRC, Blow Through happens at ~2x BODY.

 

Assuming the above is correct, if you do 20 BODY in one attack to a 10 BODY opponent, you literallly blow a hole through it/them.

The above means that if you do 20 NND to a 10 BODY opponent in one attack, Bad Things Happen .

 

Pulling Your Blow on your NND attack allows you to keep your NND below this critical threshold where NND attacks become structurally destructive.

 

Clearly, this also depends on the SFX of the NND attack.

Drifting gases can be as many dice of NND as desired without risking such physical consequences.

But NND attacks whose SFX is the sudden application of force are very much capable of "crossing the line" into destroying that which they are attacking.

 

Again, the goal is logical consistency.

[archermoo]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

You seem to have misunderstood. I want to make sure that we are both using exactly the same source material in order to give you concrete answers to your questions.

 

The only way to do that is for you to post what your game is going to be using.

 

Absent that, the best I can do that is objective is to tell you that doing enough NND that if it would result in Blow Through if it was ND or KD means you are doing structurally destructive damage.

 

This number obviously varies according to the Hit Location and the amount of BODY of the target. IIRC, Blow Through happens at ~2x BODY.

 

Assuming the above is correct, if you do 20 BODY in one attack to a 10 BODY opponent, you literallly blow a hole through it/them.

The above means that if you do 20 NND to a 10 BODY opponent in one attack, Bad Things Happen .

 

Pulling Your Blow on your NND attack allows you to keep your NND below this critical threshold.

 

You do realize that NNDs don't do BODY damage, right?

[Ki-rin]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

You do realize that NNDs don't do BODY damage' date=' right?[/quote']

Please read what I wrote

 

"...if you do 20 NND to a 10 BODY target in one attack..."

[ghost-angel]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

I will assume you mean the short section on 5ER p449 regarding "blowing through a wall" when you exceed it's Body. You do not need to do x2Body, just Exceed it, and you double the size of the hole you create for every +1 Body beyond that.

 

Also note than an NND Martial Attack (Choke Hold 5ERp399 and Nerve Strik 5ERp400) do not do Body Damage; and therefore can never be used to punch throuh any object, ever.

 

Choke Hold has special rules regarding doing Body Damage to a Living Creature once it is rendered unconscious by implementing the Drowning Rules.

 

So you are either using House Rules we are unaware of, or are wrong.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

You do realize that NNDs don't do BODY damage' date=' right?[/quote']

 

Am I hearing an echo?

[Phil]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

Ditto.

 

Just to summarize the obvious (from a 5r/5er perspective):

 

 

[*]STR that is usable for everything* except lifting is worth no more than a (-1/4) Limitation. That essentially makes it costs 4 points per 5 STR.

 

For what it's worth, I wouldn't allow this in my campaign. You're losing a bit of colour from Strength but still retaining all of it's full benefits in every other respect, even further fuelling the argument that you get too much benefit (in 5E) for each CP put into Strength. Although lifting is a fundamental aspect of Strength, in game mechanical terms I'd be inclined to call it a 1/8th limitation on Strength - or, as most campaigns don't go into this level of limitation granularity, call it -0.

 

I'd either get the character to buy the full 25 Strength, especially if it's a superheroic campaign, and then if they chose to appear to look like a little old man, that's SFX. Or they can buy Hand Attack and Figured Chars separately.

[Phil]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

From 5er, page 139:

 

 

 

So it appears that, according to RAW, a Limitation on STR that still allows that STR to get figured characteristics usually can't have a value more than (-0).

 

Hahaha I should've finished reading the thread, shouldn't I?

[Phil]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

Even in the real world' date=' too much NND to a Hit Location can and does destroy said locale and often results in crippling or death.[/quote']

I'd love you to back this up. I suspect something like "man killed in martial arts duel - Ministers reviewing Dangerous Sports legislation" might make the news, but I've never come across anything like that in my entire life.

[phookz]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

I'm no martial arts expert, but I'm going to assume that a choke hold works by restricting blood flow to the brain. Logic dictates that once you've competely blocked the blood, additional strength is worthless; the blood can't be blocked any more than completely.

[phookz]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

Even in the real world' date=' too much NND to a Hit Location can and does destroy said locale and often results in crippling or death.[/quote']

 

That doesn't even make any sense; there are no NND attacks in the real world. There are real world attacks that NND is designed to model, but that's a different thing. When the real world attack becomes sufficiently potent to do actual physical damage it ceases to be an NND attack; the abstraction breaks down. Consider a knockout gas, an especially potent dose that is non-lethal still doesn't do physical harm, it's just more effective. If the dose is so potent that it does cause physical harm, then it is, by definition, no longer an NND attack when modeled in the game.

[ideasmith]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

I'm no martial arts expert' date=' but I'm going to assume that a choke hold works by restricting blood flow to the brain. Logic dictates that once you've competely blocked the blood, additional strength is worthless; the blood can't be blocked any more than completely.[/quote']

 

While that is probably a common special effect of Choke Hold, nothing in the rules (5ER page 384, 5ER page 399) requires the target of a Choke Hold to have blood. Or a brain, for that matter.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

While that is probably a common special effect of Choke Hold' date=' nothing in the rules (5ER page 384, 5ER page 399) requires the target of a Choke Hold to have blood. Or a brain, for that matter.[/quote']

 

Except that for a character to NOT have blood or a brain usually requires the purchase of multiple automaton abilities as well as possibly shapeshift and life support.

[Trebuchet]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

That doesn't even make any sense; there are no NND attacks in the real world. There are real world attacks that NND is designed to model' date=' but that's a different thing. When the real world attack becomes sufficiently potent to do actual physical damage it ceases to be an NND attack; the abstraction breaks down. Consider a knockout gas, an especially potent dose that is non-lethal still doesn't do physical harm, it's just more effective. If the dose is so potent that it does cause physical harm, then it is, by definition, no longer an NND attack when modeled in the game.[/quote']Precisely. Recall the events in the Moscow theater in 2002, when Russian special forces used a "knockout gas" to knock out terrorists holding 850 hostages. Over 100 of the hostages died from the gas.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_theater_hostage_crisis

[Ki-rin]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

I will assume you mean the short section on 5ER p449 regarding "blowing through a wall" when you exceed it's Body. You do not need to do x2Body, just Exceed it, and you double the size of the hole you create for every +1 Body beyond that.

 

Also note than an NND Martial Attack (Choke Hold 5ERp399 and Nerve Strike 5ERp400) do not do Body Damage; and therefore can never be used to punch through any object, ever.

 

Choke Hold has special rules regarding doing BODY Damage to a Living Creature once it is rendered unconscious by implementing the Drowning Rules.

 

So you are either using House Rules we are unaware of, or are wrong.

The only "house ruling" I'm doing is in making the HERO system as logically consistent as possible.

 

Let's pretend I make a grisly wall out of dead but physically undamaged humans. Clearly, this is "structural material" that I can Blow Through just as I can any other wall.

Then be more grisly and make the humans comatose instead of dead.

I submit that physics wise nothing should change.

We have now established that Blow Through makes sense when applied to bodies.

 

NND is clearly a game mechanic just like every other form of HERO damage. There's no such thing as ND, KD, or NND ITRW. Just damage that impairs the functioning or structure of something, and for living systems the pain such can cause.

(and it is certainly possible to do great harm -without- causing pain. Chemical burns from bases will eat to the bone without you feeling a thing in the process.)

 

Now let's deal with NNDs that are based on the application of force (as opposed to that are poisonous gasses or some other non force based SFX).

 

Some involve causing pain instead of damage. (grips like yonkyo)

Some involve disrupting the nerve clusters at a pressure point so as to impair the proper working of the body in that area. (nerve strikes and things like "hitting your funny bone")

Some involve interfering with or impairing the physical workings of a nonmuscular system. (choke holds and joint locks, even small ones like nikkyo)

 

What all of the above have in common is that they are attacks that if performed with too much force can become physically and structurally damaging.

Performed with too much force, all of these attacks can cripple or destroy the target area. If the target area is something like the neck, that means killing someone.

 

I use the Blow Through rules for NND attacks based on certain SFX to better simulate this reality.

[ghost-angel]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

That's great that you use NND like that.

 

It's a House Rule.

 

NND Martial Attacks do not do Body Damage in the Rules As Written. Your House Rule was not explicitely stated to us earlier in the thread. Made it hard for discussion purposes.

[Ki-rin]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

there are no NND attacks in the real world. There are real world attacks that NND is designed to model' date=' but that's a different thing. When the real world attack becomes sufficiently potent to do actual physical damage it ceases to be an NND attack; the abstraction breaks down. Consider a knockout gas, an especially potent dose that is non-lethal still doesn't do physical harm, it's just more effective. If the dose is so potent that it does cause physical harm, then it is, by definition, no longer an NND attack when modeled in the game.[/quote']

BINGO!

 

Exactly right. And exactly why I do things this way.

[Ki-rin]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

precisely. Recall the events in the moscow theater in 2002, when russian special forces used a "knockout gas" to knock out terrorists holding 850 hostages. Over 100 of the hostages died from the gas.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/moscow_theater_hostage_crisis

qed

[ideasmith]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

Except that for a character to NOT have blood or a brain usually requires the purchase of multiple automaton abilities as well as possibly shapeshift and life support.

 

While characters with no blood or brains will usually have Self-Contained Breathing &/or Takes No Stun, there is a big difference between 'usually' and 'always'. (The other power stems you listed seem irrelevant to whether Choke Hold works.)