fair cost for strength that isn't strong

[Ki-rin]

Due to the classic STR and CON "pumps", designing a character whose premise is that they are very good at HTH combat is almost inevitably cheaper to do with high STR and CON values than via any other method.

IOW, build the classic brick.

 

If one attempts to build a highly effective HTH combat character w/o high STR, it ends up being more expensive points-wise. Sometime much more.

 

Example. The character in question is THE master of a martial art like Aikijitsu or Aikido.

 

Background

So we all are talking about the same MA, here's a 2 sentence description of the difference between jujitsu/judo vs aikijitsu/aikido:

If you find yourself on the ground or flying through the air after feeling a joint twisted or your body lifted, that's "ju".

If you find yourself on the ground or flying through the air and don't know how it happened, that's "aiki".

 

Note that the above is independent of the common knowledge both styles have of joint locks/breaks and pressure points (for both "atemi", AKA strikes, as well as controls or submission holds)

 

Another difference that needs to be noted is that the aiki arts have a strong weapons component in them. Including Bow and arrow.

/Background

 

Said character has been practicing and refining their understanding of the art for more than 50 years. This is the classic "unassuming little old man". Until he reveals himself.

 

Staves vibrate with the force of his snap strikes. Thrusts can shatter staves.

Students 2-3x or more his mass go flying the length of the practice matt.

He can gently put his hands on you and suddenly inflict _excruciating_ pain, or remove such, because of his knowledge of accupressure.

He can lock up multiple attackers simultaneously to the point where they must submit or risk having their joints torn from their ligaments if they insist on trying to fight the hold.

 

On the rare occasions where he gives demos with deady weapons, he does things with them that are awe inspiring. Sword demos are so fast and accurate you can't see the blade or its results until after the damage is done.

Bow demos involve both accuracy and rate of fire that match feats described in legends (Splitting arrows with others. Firing 6-12 shots per minute with outrageous accuracy. Often through armor as part of the demo. etc)

 

This guy can't lift more than the average guy on the street can.

But he can run herd animals into exhaustion, move so fast that you find it hard to believe, hit so hard that he routinely breaks the force measuring devices at circuses or fairs (both the swing something at them and the hit them directly types), and if you put a bathroom scale into his hands and ask him to squeeze, it reads 250+ Lbs.

 

And none of the above speaks to his teaching skills, EGO, PRE, or the skills based on those stats which are every bit as impressive as the physical stuff.

 

(yes, folks I've known more than one RW martial artist of this type.)

 

In every way except how much he can lift or carry, this sensei deserves a 25 STR in game terms.

(I'm assuming a world where 25 is the NCM limit.)

But he probably can't lift much more than the average guy (STR 10 in game terms).

 

So how much of a Limitation is

"STR in every way except in how much you can carry or lift."?

[Bloodstone]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

This is for 5E I presume...?

[ghost-angel]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

"Not For Lifting Purposes" -1/4

[Ki-rin]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

This is for 5E I presume...?

Is there a difference?

[ghost-angel]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

Between 5th and 6th Edition STR? Yes, a lot.

 

6TH Edition no longer has STR or CON providing Figured Characteristics, all of those were instead made Primary Characteristics bought straight.

 

So, under 6th STR only provides Lift, Damage and STR Rolls.

 

Making the character you describe completely viable under 6th Ed without needing to "just buy STR" for, I presumse, the benefits of Figured Characteristics.

[Ki-rin]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

Between 5th and 6th Edition STR? Yes, a lot.

 

6TH Edition no longer has STR or CON providing Figured Characteristics, all of those were instead made Primary Characteristics bought straight.

 

So, under 6th STR only provides Lift, Damage and STR Rolls.

 

Making the character you describe completely viable under 6th Ed without needing to "just buy STR" for, I presumse, the benefits of Figured Characteristics.

So the STR and CON "pumps" no longer exist in 6ed?

 

IIUC, then this char would have 10 STR vs 25 STR Lift and 10 STR vs 25 STR STR rolls.

You think a -1/4 Limitation is fair for this effect?

[ghost-angel]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

Considering No Figured is -1/2 under the 5E model, and No Lift is considerbaly less limiting than that, yes -1/4.

 

And no, there are no "pumps" under 6E. If you want 25 STR and 40 END and 2 PD, you buy just that.

[Sean Waters]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

If this guy has 10 STR, I'd buy him with 10 STR rather than 25 STR limited to act like 10 STR. It may not be the most cost efficient method (in 5th) to get a big hitter, but simplicity has many virtues.

[Ki-rin]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

Considering No Figured is -1/2 under the 5E model, and No Lift is considerbaly less limiting than that, yes -1/4.

 

And no, there are no "pumps" under 6E. If you want 25 STR and 40 END and 2 PD, you buy just that.

That's great.

 

Is the awful STUN lottery dead as well?

[Ki-rin]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

If this guy has 10 STR' date=' I'd buy him with 10 STR rather than 25 STR limited to act like 10 STR. It may not be the most cost efficient method (in 5th) to get a big hitter, but simplicity has many virtues.[/quote']

Actually it =was= simplicity I was going for.

 

This character is best modelled as having superb physical stats, primary or figured, in every way -except- not being notably strong.

 

In 4ed or 5ed, after I bought 10 STR, NCM max PD, ED, REC, END, and STUN, then Damage levels for his MA, and then all the other junk needed to model what I wanted; it became clear that the far simpler way was to buy his STR to the appropriate level and tack =a= Limitation to it rather than all the complex BS I was doing.

 

IME, the more complex you do things in HERO, the more likely you are to break game balance in some way.

[ghost-angel]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

That's great.

 

Is the aweful STUN lottery dead as well?

 

The 1D6-1 Stun Multiplier for Killing Attacks has been replaced with a 1D3 Stun Multiplier.

[Ki-rin]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

The 1D6-1 Stun Multiplier for Killing Attacks has been replaced with a 1D3 Stun Multiplier.

So the STUN Lottery has merely been made pf lower variance, rather than removed.

 

Unfortunate.

[ghost-angel]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

Using a Flat Stun Multiple is still an optional rule within the system. *shrug*

 

With a 1D3 StunX a KA does less stun on average than a Normal Attack.

[prestidigitator]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

Seeing as such masters are often depicted as performing awesome feats of strength "effortlessly" (i.e. he probably couldn't lift a 200kg weight over his head with both hands, but he'd do it with one pinkie while sipping tea), I'd probably just call it SFX myself (and maybe Reduced Endurance).

[archermoo]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

The 1D6-1 Stun Multiplier for Killing Attacks has been replaced with a 1D3 Stun Multiplier.

 

And the Hit Location chart was unchanged.

[Ki-rin]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

Seeing as such masters are often depicted as performing awesome feats of strength "effortlessly" (i.e. he probably couldn't lift a 200kg weight over his head with both hands' date=' but he'd do it with one pinkie while sipping tea), I'd probably just call it SFX myself (and maybe [i']Reduced Endurance[/i]).

As I noted in my OP, this is fairly strictly based on some real humans I have excellent documented evidence on.

 

While there are MAs like those you are describing who peform (realistic but incredible) feats of STR, none of them were the basis of this write-up.

 

=Those= guys are obviously high STR in every way.

[Bloodstone]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

Actually it =was= simplicity I was going for.

 

This character is best modelled as having superb physical stats, primary or figured, in every way -except- not being notably strong.

 

In 4ed or 5ed, after I bought 10 STR, NCM max PD, ED, REC, END, and STUN, then Damage levels for his MA, and then all the other junk needed to model what I wanted;

 

See, I would have still built your average wizened aiki master in 5E as you did, but it comes down to preference... and several other factors, such as what martial maneuvers are being used.

[Ki-rin]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

See' date=' I would have still built your average wizened aiki master in 5E as you did, but it comes down to preference... and several other factors, such as what martial maneuvers are being used.[/quote']

In 4ed or 5ed, using STR 10 but buying REC, END, and STUN to levels appropriate to documented performance was expensive.

Then buying enough MA DC for his maneuvers to have the proper effects pushed things into the realm of ludicrously expensive.

 

Buying STR to ~ the right level for the figured stats & desired DCs with a (-1/4) Limitation that he doesn't otherwise have the ability be like a circus strongman was cleaner and cheaper.

 

As for MM, aiki-jitsu/aikido has almost no Normal Damage attacks.

The damage causing MM are almost always NND or (very rarely) Killing Damage.

 

There are almost no empty hand strikes except the rare ones specifically designed to be NND or Killing (..and most of these, especially the Killing ones, are -never- taught to lower level students.)

 

Weapon strikes of all types are common with the art's weapons (Bow, dagger, sword, staff, polearm). Many of the joint locks/breaks and throws are also taught with the appropriate weapons (sword, staff, and polearm).

 

The arts entire focus physically is on how to deal with being at a physical disadvantage against some combination of stronger, faster, better armed, or numerically superior opponents.

 

IOW, in a world where supers become common this is the art that will be used as the basis for how an otherwise human MA deals with violent superhumans.

[Bloodstone]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

As for MM' date=' aiki-jitsu/aikido has almost no Normal Damage attacks.The damage causing MM are almost always NND or (very rarely) Killing Damage.[/quote']

 

IMX, the more widely accepted term is aiki-jujutsu, but regardless of that... STR isn't going to boost the effect of NND's, KA or Martial Flashes but DC's/levels will. Which is why I mentioned it.

 

Granted, the figured stats you get for a your limited 25 STR probably save you some points overall, but unless you buy up the DC's your atemi strikes are still only doing 2D6 NND.

 

Which is certainly not master level.

 

There are almost no empty hand strikes except the rare ones specifically designed to be NND or Killing (..and most of these, especially the Killing ones, are -never- taught to lower level students.)

 

This depends a great deal on your sensei and style.

 

When I did Kokikai Aikido, the strikes we learned were either entirely impractical (uke feeding tori an easy, unskilled attack) or they were setup strikes, such as a fanning finger flick to the eyes or any number of knife hand or knuckle strikes delivered to various pressure points. That wasn't a very combat oriented style overall and most of the locks and pins conformed to Ueshiba's principles.

 

By contrast, when my boss did aiki-jujutsu and kenjutsu, he learned a large number of strikes, compound joint breaks and various neck and spine manipulations. All as a beginner/white belt equivalent.

 

The differences often come down to intent and execution, because the actual techniques were nearly identical. His shiho nage was performed in a much more brutal fashion than we would have been allowed in aikido, even though both techniques were capable of breaking a wrist, elbow and shoulder all at once...

 

The arts entire focus physically is on how to deal with being at a physical disadvantage against some combination of stronger, faster, better armed, or numerically superior opponents.

 

This is a guiding principle and prime marketing point for virtually all self-defense oriented arts.

 

IOW, in a world where supers become common this is the art that will be used as the basis for how an otherwise human MA deals with violent superhumans.

 

Sure, if that's what you want for your games

 

But in that case I don't think the ideal purchase is buying more STR.

[Ki-rin]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

IMX' date=' the more widely accepted term is [i']aiki-jujutsu[/i], but regardless of that... STR isn't going to boost the effect of NND's, KA or Martial Flashes but DC's/levels will. Which is why I mentioned it.

 

Granted, the figured stats you get for a your limited 25 STR probably save you some points overall, but unless you buy up the DC's your atemi strikes are still only doing 2D6 NND.

 

Which is certainly not master level.

It is not logically consistent for Normal Attacks to scale based on STR but not STR based NND or KA.

 

Therefore IMC people do STR based DC. So a 20 STR NND or Killing Attack does 2x the DC of a 10 STR one. Just as a 20 STR Normal Attack does 2x what a 10 STR one does.

 

When I did Kokikai Aikido, the strikes we learned were either entirely impractical (uke feeding tori an easy, unskilled attack) or they were setup strikes, such as a fanning finger flick to the eyes or any number of knife hand or knuckle strikes delivered to various pressure points. That wasn't a very combat oriented style overall and most of the locks and pins conformed to Ueshiba's principles.

 

By contrast, when my boss did aiki-jujutsu and kenjutsu, he learned a large number of strikes, compound joint breaks and various neck and spine manipulations. All as a beginner/white belt equivalent.

 

The differences often come down to intent and execution, because the actual techniques were nearly identical. His shiho nage was performed in a much more brutal fashion than we would have been allowed in aikido, even though both techniques were capable of breaking a wrist, elbow and shoulder all at once...

Good aikido teaches both and the knowledge/wisdom to help you decide which is more appropriate to a given situation.

 

What's appropriate for a Civilian being attacked, a Bouncer, a Police Officer, and a Soldier is different; and even those base differences are modified by context.

 

 

(Being able to handle situations where you are at a disadvantage) is a guiding principle and prime marketing point for virtually all self-defense oriented arts.

Some =considerably= more so than others.

 

Many of the more "yang" arts are very much about applying overwhelming force in 1-vs-1 combat. Even gracie jiujitsu is almost exclusively about 1-vs-1combat.

 

In contrast, the more "ying" arts are much more focused on using an opponents power and violence against them via Blending etc.

Also much more emphasis is placed on 1-vs-many combat. Particularly situations where the one starts off at a serious disadvantage (They're armed. You're not. Or you're restrained and facing multiple opponents. Or ...)

[bigbywolfe]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

Due to the classic STR and CON "pumps", designing a character whose premise is that they are very good at HTH combat is almost inevitably cheaper to do with high STR and CON values than via any other method.

IOW, build the classic brick.

 

If one attempts to build a highly effective HTH combat character w/o high STR, it ends up being more expensive points-wise. Sometime much more.

 

Example. The character in question is THE master of a martial art like Aikijitsu or Aikido.

 

Background

So we all are talking about the same MA, here's a 2 sentence description of the difference between jujitsu/judo vs aikijitsu/aikido:

If you find yourself on the ground or flying through the air after feeling a joint twisted or your body lifted, that's "ju".

If you find yourself on the ground or flying through the air and don't know how it happened, that's "aiki".

 

Note that the above is independent of the common knowledge both styles have of joint locks/breaks and pressure points (for both "atemi", AKA strikes, as well as controls or submission holds)

 

Another difference that needs to be noted is that the aiki arts have a strong weapons component in them. Including Bow and arrow.

/Background

 

Said character has been practicing and refining their understanding of the art for more than 50 years. This is the classic "unassuming little old man". Until he reveals himself.

 

Staves vibrate with the force of his snap strikes. Thrusts can shatter staves.

Students 2-3x or more his mass go flying the length of the practice matt.

He can gently put his hands on you and suddenly inflict _excruciating_ pain, or remove such, because of his knowledge of accupressure.

He can lock up multiple attackers simultaneously to the point where they must submit or risk having their joints torn from their ligaments if they insist on trying to fight the hold.

 

On the rare occasions where he gives demos with deady weapons, he does things with them that are awe inspiring. Sword demos are so fast and accurate you can't see the blade or its results until after the damage is done.

Bow demos involve both accuracy and rate of fire that match feats described in legends (Splitting arrows with others. Firing 6-12 shots per minute with outrageous accuracy. Often through armor as part of the demo. etc)

 

This guy can't lift more than the average guy on the street can.

But he can run herd animals into exhaustion, move so fast that you find it hard to believe, hit so hard that he routinely breaks the force measuring devices at circuses or fairs (both the swing something at them and the hit them directly types), and if you put a bathroom scale into his hands and ask him to squeeze, it reads 250+ Lbs.

 

And none of the above speaks to his teaching skills, EGO, PRE, or the skills based on those stats which are every bit as impressive as the physical stuff.

 

(yes, folks I've known more than one RW martial artist of this type.)

 

In every way except how much he can lift or carry, this sensei deserves a 25 STR in game terms.

(I'm assuming a world where 25 is the NCM limit.)

But he probably can't lift much more than the average guy (STR 10 in game terms).

 

So how much of a Limitation is

"STR in every way except in how much you can carry or lift."?

 

Well your first problem is “THE master of a martial art” shouldn’t have the same PD as a “classic brick”. He should have a hell of a lot better DCV though. Also, you describe the martial arts master as super fast, something that may or may not be considered part of the brick’s shtick. If he’s that fast he should have more SPD than everyone. If he can block the punch of a super it’s not because he has high defenses, but because he has held a phase (since he has more than anyone else) and a Block maneuver, preferably with the Throw element, and a high enough OCV to make sure the Block hits. My point is you seem to complain about all the stuff the brick gets for “free” that he doesn’t, but you are also giving him a lot of stuff that the “classic brick” simply doesn’t have/didn’t spend points on. Is the Martial Artist getting a little gimped by having to buy up his damage? Maybe. But he’s getting a hell of a deal with all the DEX he’s buying as well, since it ups his SPD, helps him go first (so he can hold actions or just get first strike) and ups his DEX rolls and all related skills. In other words, your problem is trying to build this sort of character as a brick. Might as well compare him to an Energy Projector and complain that he has no ranged attacks.

 

As I noted in my OP, this is fairly strictly based on some real humans I have excellent documented evidence on.

I would love to see this documented evidence, especially considering the examples you gave in the OP. Also, you later stated that this was for a Superheroic level game, so why the worry about sticking close to the “real world” version?

[Trebuchet]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

Due to the classic STR and CON "pumps", designing a character whose premise is that they are very good at HTH combat is almost inevitably cheaper to do with high STR and CON values than via any other method.

IOW, build the classic brick.

 

If one attempts to build a highly effective HTH combat character w/o high STR, it ends up being more expensive points-wise. Sometime much more.

 

Example. The character in question is THE master of a martial art like Aikijitsu or Aikido.

 

Background

So we all are talking about the same MA, here's a 2 sentence description of the difference between jujitsu/judo vs aikijitsu/aikido:

If you find yourself on the ground or flying through the air after feeling a joint twisted or your body lifted, that's "ju".

If you find yourself on the ground or flying through the air and don't know how it happened, that's "aiki".

 

Note that the above is independent of the common knowledge both styles have of joint locks/breaks and pressure points (for both "atemi", AKA strikes, as well as controls or submission holds)

 

Another difference that needs to be noted is that the aiki arts have a strong weapons component in them. Including Bow and arrow.

/Background

 

Said character has been practicing and refining their understanding of the art for more than 50 years. This is the classic "unassuming little old man". Until he reveals himself.

 

Staves vibrate with the force of his snap strikes. Thrusts can shatter staves.

Students 2-3x or more his mass go flying the length of the practice matt.

He can gently put his hands on you and suddenly inflict _excruciating_ pain, or remove such, because of his knowledge of accupressure.

He can lock up multiple attackers simultaneously to the point where they must submit or risk having their joints torn from their ligaments if they insist on trying to fight the hold.

 

On the rare occasions where he gives demos with deady weapons, he does things with them that are awe inspiring. Sword demos are so fast and accurate you can't see the blade or its results until after the damage is done.

Bow demos involve both accuracy and rate of fire that match feats described in legends (Splitting arrows with others. Firing 6-12 shots per minute with outrageous accuracy. Often through armor as part of the demo. etc)

 

This guy can't lift more than the average guy on the street can.

But he can run herd animals into exhaustion, move so fast that you find it hard to believe, hit so hard that he routinely breaks the force measuring devices at circuses or fairs (both the swing something at them and the hit them directly types), and if you put a bathroom scale into his hands and ask him to squeeze, it reads 250+ Lbs.

 

And none of the above speaks to his teaching skills, EGO, PRE, or the skills based on those stats which are every bit as impressive as the physical stuff.

 

(yes, folks I've known more than one RW martial artist of this type.)

 

In every way except how much he can lift or carry, this sensei deserves a 25 STR in game terms.

(I'm assuming a world where 25 is the NCM limit.)

But he probably can't lift much more than the average guy (STR 10 in game terms).

 

So how much of a Limitation is

"STR in every way except in how much you can carry or lift."?

This is nothing new. What you're looking for are called Damage Classes and can be found in the Martial Arts sections of 5E and 6E.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

Considering No Figured is -1/2 under the 5E model' date=' and No Lift is considerbaly less limiting than that, yes -1/4.[/quote']

 

Can't let it go...

 

No Figured was never a reasonable limitation at -1/2. What would you apply as a limitation for "only for Figured's"?

 

But I agree "not for lifting" is no more than -1/4.

 

It is not logically consistent for Normal Attacks to scale based on STR but not STR based NND or KA.

 

Therefore IMC people do STR based DC. So a 20 STR NND or Killing Attack does 2x the DC of a 10 STR one. Just as a 20 STR Normal Attack does 2x what a 10 STR one does.

 

So you blame the system for "requiring" you to have a high STR to be effective, when you are changing the system to make high STR more effective than it is under the rules.

 

Also, this approach to KA's doubles up on your STR, since you also use STR to add to HKA's.

 

Finally, why would a nerve strike that works through precision do more damage because the user is stronger? How does a choke hold suffocate faster by squeezing harder? If Super Martial Artists teach us nothing else, they teach us that there's more to combat than brute strength.

[Ki-rin]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

Well your first problem is “THE master of a martial art” shouldn’t have the same PD as a “classic brick”. He should have a hell of a lot better DCV though. Also, you describe the martial arts master as super fast, something that may or may not be considered part of the brick’s shtick. If he’s that fast he should have more SPD than everyone. If he can block the punch of a super it’s not because he has high defenses, but because he has held a phase (since he has more than anyone else) and a Block maneuver, preferably with the Throw element, and a high enough OCV to make sure the Block hits. My point is you seem to complain about all the stuff the brick gets for “free” that he doesn’t, but you are also giving him a lot of stuff that the “classic brick” simply doesn’t have/didn’t spend points on. Is the Martial Artist getting a little gimped by having to buy up his damage? Maybe. But he’s getting a hell of a deal with all the DEX he’s buying as well, since it ups his SPD, helps him go first (so he can hold actions or just get first strike) and ups his DEX rolls and all related skills. In other words, your problem is trying to build this sort of character as a brick. Might as well compare him to an Energy Projector and complain that he has no ranged attacks.

 

 

I would love to see this documented evidence, especially considering the examples you gave in the OP. Also, you later stated that this was for a Superheroic level game, so why the worry about sticking close to the “real world” version?

 

1= The classic super brick of the same CPs has considerably better PD, much higher STR, much higher CON, lower CV, and tends to be 1-2 pips lower in SPD.

 

2= MA like this don't Block unless it can be done as part of a Blending or Redirect maneuver. They Dodge.

 

3= Despite how impressive this guy is, he is still human and still almost exclusively a HTH specialist. Any hero that flys or that is a significant EP has this guy at a serious disadvantage. And that doesn't take into account the fact that Armored and EP supers are not hampered in combat by NCM like this guy is.

 

4= Start looking around the net for documentation. You'll find it.

 

5= The whole point is to explore what otherwise normal humans can achieve with a lifetime of discipline, practice, and study vs what we call supers. I'll try to write up one of the iconic example encounters later.

[Ki-rin]

Re: fair cost for strength that isn't strong

 

Can't let it go...

 

So you blame the system for "requiring" you to have a high STR to be effective, when you are changing the system to make high STR more effective than it is under the rules.

Nope. Just want things to be consistent.

 

Also, this approach to KA's doubles up on your STR, since you also use STR to add to HKA's.

Nope. I'm simply putting the STR add in automatically.

 

Finally, why would a nerve strike that works through precision do more damage because the user is stronger? How does a choke hold suffocate faster by squeezing harder? If Super Martial Artists teach us nothing else, they teach us that there's more to combat than brute strength.

Having been on the receiving end of quite a few choke holds, joint locks, and pressure point attacks, I can tell you with certainty that both the precision with which the attack is applied as well as the force which is brought to bear matter.

 

Even with the same precision, the exact same choke hold can be anything from uncomfortable to instantly knocking you out; and the difference is the amount of force with which it was applied.

(basically how much and how fast the blood supply to your brain is cut off.)

 

Ditto pressure point attacks / holds like nikyo, sankyo, or yonkyo.

Trust me when I say that the grip strength of the applier matters.

Pick up a bathroom scale in both hands and while holding it arms length from you, squeeze the scale as hard as you can with both hands.

Senior practitioners commonly can get said scale to read 200+ lbs.