Potion of Giant ST example

[hammersickle59]

Page 351 of 6E1

 

Potion Of Giant Strength: +30 str, trigger (quaff potion; +1⁄4) (37 active points); oaF Fragile expendable (easily spilled or diluted liquid, brewed from giant’s blood and other components which are Difficult to acquire; -11⁄2), concentration (creator has 0 Dcv while brewing potion; -1), extra time (takes minimum of 1 hour to brew potion; -4), gestures (must make arcane gestures while brewing potion; -1⁄2), incantations (must 6 incant magical

formulae while brewing potion; -1⁄2), requires an alchemy roll (-1⁄2), 4 continuing charges lasting 1 Minute each (-1⁄4). total cost: 4 points.

 

I've come to the conclusion that their potion example is wrong, both in their use of extra time and charges. Extra time should be at half value for activating a constant power. Charges shouldn't be there at all. What they meant to express is an advantage, not a limitation. It is "I activate it once and I get four of them", not "I can only activate it four times per day". They're not paying the activation time (extra time) each time they activate a charge.

 

They took what sounded right and were completely wrong. Yes?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Potion of Giant ST example

 

Don't know about the Extra Time, but I think the idea on the Charges is that the character will only have a maximum of four of the potions available at any given time (or four doses in the vial, though there's no affect for drinking more than one dose since the Charges aren't Boostable or anything). The way it is built, the expendable foci and time to brew would have to be taken for each Trigger (potion) setup. I don't think that's wrong; it's by design.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Potion of Giant ST example

 

Adding the Charges Limitation automatically makes the Power an Instant Power.

 

4 Charges lasting 1 Minute Each; the STR only lasts for 1 Minute, and can only be used 4 times per day. You get a total of 4 minutes of use, that's definitely a Limitation.

 

The only mistake I can see is that the Extra Time 1 Hour is worth -3, not -4. You could possibly make an arguement about "brewing time" being akin to "Only To Activate" if you wanted.

[secretID]

Re: Potion of Giant ST example

 

I think that example is a lot like the one in 5e that I never liked. I don't get why drinking the potion is a trigger to own's STR - isn't a trigger an advantage because you don't have to do something to make it activate? Drinking a potion to make one's own power activate just seems like power activation to me.

 

I don't remember all of that stuff about creating that potion from the 5e example, but I don't understand that, either. That's just sfx of recharging. If this were an Aid I could understand it, b/c all of that would be limitations on giving the power to someone.

 

I would think a STR potion would simply be either: 1) STR, Gestures (not focus b/c don't use the vial during the whole time you have the STR), Continuous Charges (with whatever tweaks on the charges as appropriate to account for creating more potions), and maybe a custom lim to reflect the fact that the potion can be destroyed; or 2) Aid STR, foci for the potion and also for the creation of it, various lims related to the creation of the potion as in the example, and Trigger (b/c someone other than the owner of the power is activating the power). If the creator of the potion is its only user, I would say the STR build; otherwise, I'd say the Aid build. (And I guess another possibility would be to put UOO on the first build.)

[prestidigitator]

Re: Potion of Giant ST example

 

Frankly I've never even been happy with Gestures on potions. Expendable Focus covers it in my opinion, just as much as it does with a gun, a sword, an amulet or whatever. It's not often we allow Gestures on those things unless there's a definite additional limitation that makes the use incredibly obvious to distant observers and obviously supernatural. I mean really. Who allows Gestures on a sword?

 

I agree on the Trigger, too. Unnecessary unless for some reason it can be used any time with less of a requirement on actions than usual (e.g. if it can be activated as an action that takes no time in this case instead of as a 0 Phase action). Delayed Effect is more appropriate IMO than Trigger.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Potion of Giant ST example

 

I think that example is a lot like the one in 5e that I never liked. I don't get why drinking the potion is a trigger to own's STR - isn't a trigger an advantage because you don't have to do something to make it activate? Drinking a potion to make one's own power activate just seems like power activation to me.

 

No, Trigger is an Advantage because you can set specific conditions for it to set off, it has nothing to do with actions take or not taken (a common trigger is pushing a button, or saying a command word).

 

By default Activating a Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action. For an additional +1/4 it becomes an Action That Takes No Time.

 

Whether any of that is appropriate to a Strength Potion is up to the reader; the book Example is just that, an Example.

[secretID]

Re: Potion of Giant ST example

 

Frankly I've never even been happy with Gestures on potions....It's not often we allow Gestures on those things unless there's a definite additional limitation that makes the use incredibly obvious to distant observers and obviously supernatural.

Yeah, I see that, but focus doesn't work for me at all, b/c you can't stop the STR after it's activated by removing the focus.

 

Expendable Focus covers it in my opinion' date=' just as much as it does with a gun, a sword, an amulet or whatever.[/quote']

With a sword or gun, you take it away and you end the power. The potion is more like...a scabbard, maybe. As a GM, I would probably do the focus, -1/4 for "only to activate," as with gestures and incantations.

 

No' date=' Trigger is an Advantage because you can set specific conditions for it to set off, it has nothing to do with actions take or not taken (a common trigger is pushing a button, or saying a command word).[/quote']

I'm not saying it depends on the action; I'm saying it depends on the actor, or lack thereof. If to activate my power I have to push a button or say a command word instead of just willing it to activate, that's a minor limitation, not an advantage. If someone else can activate my power by pushing a button, that is often an advantage.

 

The advantage of a trigger, in my mind, is that it can be activated even w/o the will of the power's owner. That's why a potion as an Aid trigger makes sense to me.

 

Whether any of that is appropriate to a Strength Potion is up to the reader; the book Example is just that' date=' an Example.[/quote']

Right...and this is just a discussion of the fitness of the example.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Potion of Giant ST example

 

Personally, for Triggers on Potions, I would put them at the +1/2 Level: An Action That Takes No Time, now you can quaff a Potion at any point, even outside your Phase. Making it more useful for non-attack powers.

 

The other reason it's an Advantage: even at the +1/4 Action, the Zero Phase Action does not constitute an Attack Action: if you have a Trigger on a Blast, it won't end your Phase. That's a massive Advantage.

 

I think it's highly appropriate on Potions in many cases of how they are treated in Fantasy Gaming, thought as I said above, at the +1/2 Level.

[secretID]

Re: Potion of Giant ST example

 

The other reason it's an Advantage: even at the +1/4 Action' date=' the Zero Phase Action does not constitute an Attack Action: if you have a Trigger on a Blast, it won't end your Phase. That's a massive Advantage.[/quote']

That's still different than a potion, because the triggering action has its own purpose. I agree that triggers of "whenever I jump," "whenever I Dodge," etc. should be Triggers, because there is an advantage to doing two things at once, but quaffing a potion has no purpose (usually) other than to activate the power.

I think it's highly appropriate on Potions in many cases of how they are treated in Fantasy Gaming' date=' thought as I said above, at the +1/2 Level.[/quote']

If you allow a potion to be drunk at any time, then I agree that that's an advantage in some cases, though I'm skeptical that there are many, or that I would be willing to pay +1/2 for it in most cases as a player. Also, it doesn't fit the sfx to me, as quaffing a potion is actually a pretty complicated action, but to each his own. Regardless, I don't see what the advantage is for the trigger in this STR potion example.

 

Something did just occur to me: is the idea of the power that you can stack the STR - drink two potions, for +60? That would certainly be an advantage, but I would still build that differently.

[Hierax]

Re: Potion of Giant ST example

 

A Potion could be OAF.

 

If you have a wand that fires a Continuous Charge (say Paralyzation) at a target, taking away the wand after the charge has gone off ain't gonna stop it, the Limitation is that you can stop them from shooting the wand in the first place, and that would qualify for OAF; just like OAF could be for stopping you from making a 'shooter' out of the potion

[secretID]

Re: Potion of Giant ST example

 

A Potion could be OAF.

 

If you have a wand that fires a Continuous Charge (say Paralyzation) at a target, taking away the wand after the charge has gone off ain't gonna stop it, the Limitation is that you can stop them from shooting the wand in the first place, and that would qualify for OAF; just like OAF could be for stopping you from making a 'shooter' out of the potion

Hmm...I guess so. I'm not sure I would rule that way on the wand, though I probably would. It does seem somewhat contrary to the requirement of retaining LOS.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Potion of Giant ST example

 

Trigger is an Advantage because otherwise you would have to suffer from all of this while trying to grow stronger in the middle of battle:

concentration (creator has 0 Dcv while brewing potion; -1), extra time (takes minimum of 1 hour to brew potion; -4), gestures (must make arcane gestures while brewing potion; -1⁄2), incantations (must 6 incant magical

formulae while brewing potion; -1⁄2), requires an alchemy roll (-1⁄2)

Most combats don't last an hour to let the chemist/alchemist/whatever whip up a potion. Without the Trigger it would "activate" as soon as the preparations were done, wouldn't it? That would only be helpful if you had an hour of prep each time you wanted to get stronger...

[prestidigitator]

Re: Potion of Giant ST example

 

Trigger is an Advantage because otherwise you would have to suffer from all of this while trying to grow stronger in the middle of battle:

 

Most combats don't last an hour to let the chemist/alchemist/whatever whip up a potion. Without the Trigger it would "activate" as soon as the preparations were done, wouldn't it? That would only be helpful if you had an hour of prep each time you wanted to get stronger...

 

That's what the Delayed Effect Advantage is for though, if suffering the drawbacks of those activation limitations ahead of time is the only effect.

[dmjalund]

Re: Potion of Giant ST example

 

If the power is + to STR, then the STR is the POWER, and if designed via a focus, there should be a focus that a person can remove that will decrease the STR.

 

However if you design the power as AID STR (standard effect perhaps), then the STR is the EFFECT OF THE POWER and cannot be removed by removing any focus (IMHO)

[ghost-angel]

Re: Potion of Giant ST example

 

That's what the Delayed Effect Advantage is for though' date=' if suffering the drawbacks of those activation limitations ahead of time is the only effect.[/quote']

 

1) Delayed Effect has a limit to the number you can have ready.

2) It can only be used in campaigns where the GM is using a rule that limits the number of "active" or "ready" spells at once.

 

It's not a universal Advantage like Trigger is.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Potion of Giant ST example

 

Call me old fashioned, but isn't all that 'concentration/extra time/gestures/incantations/alchemy roll' just part of the 'difficult to obtain' bit of 'focus', for which you're already getting additional limitation value?

[secretID]

Re: Potion of Giant ST example

 

Call me old fashioned' date=' but isn't all that 'concentration/extra time/gestures/incantations/alchemy roll' just part of the 'difficult to obtain' bit of 'focus', for which you're already getting additional limitation value?[/quote']

I saw it as part of the difficulty of getting more charges, but either way, I guess.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Potion of Giant ST example

 

Here's how it should be done:

 

Potion of Giant Strength: 30 active, 9 real

 

+30 STR (30 Active Points); IAF Fragile Expendable (Difficult to obtain new Focus; -1), 4 Continuing Charges lasting 1 Extra Phase each (-3/4), Gestures (-1/4), Extra Time (Extra Segment, Only to Activate, -1/4)

 

So...+30 STR...check.

 

4 continuing charges lasting a minute (although you might wonder why you can only have 4 at a time....but that is a problem for all 'charges' powers)...check

 

IAF, fragile, difficult to replace (requires all that brewing) because it is a bottle of liquid that you have to quaff from to use the power, but you can certainly avoid being obvious about doing so and can keep it hidden until you use it, so IAF and it takes a lot of time and effort to brew up a batch...check.

 

Gestures (you need to uncork the bottle and sip from it)...check.

 

Extra time (extra segment)...because getting the bottle and uncorking it and sipping from it and such take time...check.

 

That seems about right.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Potion of Giant ST example

 

I saw it as part of the difficulty of getting more charges' date=' but either way, I guess.[/quote']

 

It isn't: they are activation limitations: brewing the potion is not an activation requirement - it could be brewed by someone else. Makes a lot of difference to the limitation value!

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Potion of Giant ST example

 

Potions can be difficult to model, and there is more than one correct way to do it. I'm not fond of the Giants Strength example approach either.

 

The default "potion" definition I use is described here:

 

Potions

 

Here are some example Potions:

 

Examples

 

One of the examples is a Potion of Strength based on Aid, which is an ideal power for Potion effects in my opinion as it is Instant, but Fades rather than lasting only a segment. This dodges Constant / Continuing / Activation issues nicely.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Potion of Giant ST example

 

Potions can be difficult to model, and there is more than one correct way to do it. I'm not fond of the Giants Strength example approach either.

 

The default "potion" definition I use is described here:

 

Potions

 

Here are some example Potions:

 

Examples

 

One of the examples is a Potion of Strength based on Aid, which is an ideal power for Potion effects in my opinion as it is Instant, but Fades rather than lasting only a segment. This dodges Constant / Continuing / Activation issues nicely.

 

 

I should have said a way to do it: this is Hero, after all

 

I think your approach to potions covers everything that is needed: might up the Focus limitation to +1 1/2 for 'difficult to replace' (if the ingredients are expensive and the brewing difficult) and I'd call 'restrainable' 'gestures', but that is just semantics - it is the same limitation value. Looking at the book definition, neither fits perfectly, but I think the intention is clear.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Potion of Giant ST example

 

One point does occur - the only trouble with 'never recovers' is that creating a potion means, in effect, giving up character points: good way to limit potion proliferation, but it might not be what every campaign needs.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Potion of Giant ST example

 

One point does occur - the only trouble with 'never recovers' is that creating a potion means' date=' in effect, giving up character points: good way to limit potion proliferation, but it might not be what every campaign needs.[/quote']

 

In a heroic campaign you might not be paying for it with character points anyway.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Potion of Giant ST example

 

One point does occur - the only trouble with 'never recovers' is that creating a potion means' date=' in effect, giving up character points: good way to limit potion proliferation, but it might not be what every campaign needs.[/quote']

 

Which is why I dont charge character points for items with Non Recoverable Charges. I require permanent items to take Independent and they do cost Character Points to create (but not to acquire after they have been created), where as temporary items with Non-Recoverable Charges (which I call Ephemeral Items) only cost money and time to make.

 

Quote Crafting an Ephemeral Magic Item is identical to the rules laid out for Permanent Magic Items except that instead of having Independent, Ephemeral Items have Nonrecoverable Charges instead, and never cost Character Points to create. They are treated as a commodity like any other physical object.

 

Most Ephemeral Magic Items take the form of a Scroll, Potion, or Wand, but endless variations exist. Most Ephemeral Magic Items merely hold a given "Spell", or Power Construct, primed for use and usable a certain number of times from one to many.

 

 

Magic Items - Points or Currency

[Hierax]

Re: Potion of Giant ST example

 

... I'd call 'restrainable' 'gestures'' date=' but that is just semantics - it is the same limitation value. Looking at the book definition, neither fits perfectly, but I think the intention is clear.[/quote']

 

I'm not sure about the OAF with Restrainable or Gestures thing. Couldn't you say the same thing about say a sword? Doesn't the "A" of OAF cover the Restrainable/Gestures thing? How is a potion different than another OAF to get either of these?

 

Maybe I'm just having a foggy headed morning but could you explain how this works?