Merging Blast, HTH and Killing (6E)

[Crypt]

Do you think it would be possible to merge Blast, HTH and Killing ?

 

For instance:

ATTACK (----(LAST EDITION: Nov 16th, '09 at 09:13 AM)----)

Base cost: 1DC/5pts

+ a mandatory 'No Manipulation' (-1/4 ) limitation (it cannot be used to do anything else but damage. It cannot manipulate things. So by default Attack is a limited form of STR)

By default:

- No Range

- Normal damages

- 'Normal' method of rolling damage (total=stun; 'pips'=body)

- Add to STR : +1DC/5 STR

 

Some possible advantages:

- Ranged (+1/2) (or any other range advantage)

- Killing (+1/2) (This is the official killing damage, as usual, as it works on 6E2 page 104. The cost of this advantage is the same as an AVAD vs Resistant PD or ED. Actually this IS such an AVAD, cf 6E1 p326. +1/2 is also the same cost as the one of a Resistant advantage applied to PD or ED, cf 6E1 p 275)

- Increased Stun multiplier (+1/4 per +1)

 

Some possible limitations:

- Doesn't add to STR (-1/2)

- Decreased Stun multiplier (-1/4 per -1)

- UKM (-1/4): Uses the 'killing' method of dice rolling (total=body; body X 1/2d=stun) instead of the normal one[/b])

 

 

Note: about Stun multiplier increase or decrease with the normal rolling method see Advanced Player's Guide p81: add or remove a number of Stun points equal to the number of dices rolled for each +1/-1 Stun multiplier.

 

 

So:

 

A 'HTH power' = Attack 1DC/5pts , No Manipulation (-1/4)

(= 1DC/4 pts)

 

A 'Blast power' = Attack 1DC/5pts , Ranged (+1/2) , Doesn't add to STR (-1/2) , No Manipulation (-1/4)

(= roughly 1DC/4.286 pts)

 

A Range 'Killing power' = Attack 1DC/5pts , Ranged (+1/2) , Killing (+1/2), UKM (-1/4), Doesn't add to STR (-1/2) , No Manipulation (-1/4).

(= 1DC/5 pts)

 

A HTH 'Killing power' = Attack 1DC/5pts , Killing (+1/2) , UKM (-1/4), No Manipulation (-1/4).

(= 1DC/5 pts)

 

 

Or with 1 level of decreased Stun and without UKM (in order to get results similar to the killing rolling method while using the normal one):

 

A Range 'Killing power' = Attack 1DC/5pts , Ranged (+1/2) , Killing (+1/2), -1 Stun multiplier (-1/4), Doesn't add to STR (-1/2) , No Manipulation (-1/4).

(= 1DC/5 pts)

 

A HTH 'Killing power' = Attack 1DC/5pts , Killing (+1/2) , -1 Stun multiplier (-1/4), No Manipulation (-1/4).

(= 1DC/5 pts)

 

 

 

If we merge those advantages and limitations into the base cost then the costs are very close to the official ones, except for Blast:

'HTH power' = 1DC/4 pts

'Blast power' = 1DC/4 pts

Range 'Killing power'= 1DC/5 pts = 1dK/15pts

HTH 'Killing power' = 1DC/5 pts = 1dK/15pts

 

If i use the normal rolling method for every kind of damage (i want to do that ) by removing UKM then the costs are:

'HTH power' = 1DC/4 pts

'Blast power' = 1DC/4 pts

Range 'Killing power'= 1DC/6 pts

HTH 'Killing power' = 1DC/6 pts

 

then if we add the -1 STUN modifier to the two Killing attack the cost is again :

'HTH power' = 1DC/4 pts

'Blast power' = 1DC/4 pts

Range 'Killing power'= 1DC/5 pts

HTH 'Killing power' = 1DC/5 pts

 

 

////////////////////////////////////////

EDIT: some explanations =

 

- The Rolling methods = (====> UKM limitation)

N atks do 1.5 more STUN than K atks

N atks do 1.17 less BODY than K atks

But BODY costs twice as much AP as STUN and characters tend to have twice as much STUN as BODY.

So the ratio is 1.5/(1.17X1.17)=1.09 = very close to 1 so the rolling methods don't favor one or another kind of attack when taking AP into account (and i believe we must consider that when dealing with HERO rules. AP are the final referee.)

BUT if we take CON into account (and i think we should) then the ratio is still 1.5/1.17 = 1.3 in favor of Normal rolling.

Score: N1/K0

=> so the UKM limitation makes sense.

 

- The defenses (6E2 p 104) = (====> Killing advantage.)

 

Normal and Resistant DEFs work against N Stun and N Body

 

Normal and Resistant DEFs work against K Stun

Only Resistant DEFs work against K Body

 

So K is clearly advantaged here, isn't it ?

Score: N1/K1

 

-The intent of the attack:

Sometimes we don't want to kill even with a Killing attack.

Sometimes we want to kill even with a Normal attack.

Score: still N1/K1

 

 

N1/K1 = no winner.

 

///////////////////////////////////////

 

 

My question is = do you think this house rule would unbalance the game ?

 

 

(About the UKM limitation : i must confess it gives me a way to get rid of the killing rolling method...I don't like using several different rolling methods, i like homogeneity and simplicity so i may use the normal rolling method all the time, simply by not selecting the UKM limitation when building powers )

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Merging Blast, HTH and Killing (6E)

 

My very question is = do you think this house rule would unbalance the game ?

Maybe not if the entire campaign was built this way. But if you just tried to convert existing stuff to this and plug it in, I think it might interact poorly.

Also, does

Killing (+1/2) (only Resistant defenses apply against the attack)

mean Resistant defenses only apply against the Body or against the whole thing including Stun? That would be a major change, and probably unbalancing.

[Crypt]

Re: Merging Blast, HTH and Killing (6E)

 

Also, does mean Resistant defenses only apply against the Body or against the whole thing including Stun? That would be a major change, and probably unbalancing.

 

There is no change on the way defenses and damages work.

This is the official killing damage, as usual, as it works on 6E2 page 104.

(i've edited my post in order to avoid confusion)

 

I only merge 3 powers into one, that's all.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Merging Blast, HTH and Killing (6E)

 

Killing versions of Attack would be a little more expensive than the official Killing Attack. Honestly i wonder why this is not already the case because ' date='IMVHO, Body damages which cannot by absorbed by non-resistant defenses clearly are an advantage (and it exists ! = AVAD vs Resistant PD or ED)[/quote']

 

While I believe there is at least an argument in this regard, I wonder how many of us would allow a limitation on a KA, at present, because "BOD is stopped by normal defenses"? How about a limitation on normal attacks that "subtract 1d6 more from Knockback". KA's also average less STUN before defenses (and less after under the 6e rules; 5e depended much more on average defense levels).

 

And +1/2 for "killing damage" is not official to convert to a KA - such an attack would reduce both BOD and STUN damage by resistant defenses only. All defenses, resistant or not, act against KA STUN damage.

 

I also wonder how it is we rail against the fact that KA's get "something for nothing" by having BOD stopped only by resistant defenses, but we are OK with KA's getting to add STR damage, such that virtually every character can minimize the cost of such attacks by either having STR add, or taking a limitation because it does not add. If I have a 15 STR, a 3d6 HKA costs 45 points, and a 4d6 HKA, STR does not add, costs 40 points, yet they both do exactly the same thing. One of those prices must be wrong by 5 points.

 

Killing and ranged attacks benefit from the increased potential for advantage stacking, of course. Ranged attacks suffer from reduced benefits when another limitation is added, since they already have "STR doesn't add" for -1/2.

[Crypt]

Re: Merging Blast, HTH and Killing (6E)

 

Note that i've edited and added a limitation (UKM) about the difference between the two existing methods of rolling for damages and finally the building of a classical Killing Attack power costs the same as the official one.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Merging Blast, HTH and Killing (6E)

 

A ranged blast works out at 7.5 points (active) and 4.3 points (real) under this suggestion. I'm not sure that works: it makes it largely pointless in MPs or VPPs but over effective if you ignore AP caps and just buy it 'straight' (you could get just 8 dice into a 60 point framework but 14 dice as a 'straight' 60 point power).

 

Whilst I like the idea of unifying damage I think you may be starting in the wrong place. Maybe 'damage' should cost 4 points per 1d6? Then if you reduce the cost of 'ranged' to +1/4 you're practically golden. 'Manipulation' could also be +1/4 (so you get normal STR). Then you get rid of TK and allow ranged damage with manipulation (6 points per 1d6/5 STR) which you can make indirect if you want to. Is this making sense?

[Crypt]

Re: Merging Blast, HTH and Killing (6E)

 

Then if you reduce the cost of 'ranged' to +1/4 you're practically golden.

 

I try to use the official modifiers as far as possible.

 

 

Maybe 'damage' should cost 4 points per 1d6?

'Manipulation' could also be +1/4 (so you get normal STR). Then you get rid of TK and allow ranged damage with manipulation (6 points per 1d6/5 STR) which you can make indirect if you want to. Is this making sense?

 

yes, it could be an alternate version. (i thought about this kind of thing but i didn't want to afraid anyone by speaking about removing TK )

[Sean Waters]

Re: Merging Blast, HTH and Killing (6E)

 

What is 'ranged' actually worth? Worth talking about somewhere else, possibly...

 

If you are going to integrate damage you have to think about not just how you plan to do it but also what it will cost: like I say the system you propose doesn't seem to cost out right.

 

In my opinion, 'Blast' is priced about right: 5 points for 1d6 of damage at range, costs END, yadda yadda yadda...I'd start off making that right and then everything is likely to follow. I would not base it on the cost of STR (even though it is the same) because STR does other stuff than damage and I really do not like the idea of a 'mandatory modifier' - if you need anything mandatory then you need a separate power.

[Crypt]

Re: Merging Blast, HTH and Killing (6E)

 

if you need anything mandatory then you need a separate power.

 

well, the Attack Power base cost could as well be 4pt/1DC without the mandatory limitation.

 

then

A 'HTH power' = Attack 1DC/4pts

(= 1DC/4 pts)

 

A 'Blast power' = Attack 1DC/4pts , Ranged (+1/2) , Doesn't add to STR (-1/2)

(= 1DC/4 pts)

 

A Range 'Killing power' = Attack 1DC/4pts , Ranged (+1/2) , Killing (+1/2), UKM (-1/4), Doesn't add to STR (-1/2)

(= 1DC/4.57 pts)

 

A HTH 'Killing power' = Attack 1DC/4pts , Killing (+1/2) , UKM (-1/4)

(= 1DC/4.8 pts)

 

..... well....i don't know, i tend to prefer the other version.

 

 

 

As you said it might be a problem with frameworks. I need to think about it...

[Crypt]

Re: Merging Blast, HTH and Killing (6E)

 

I think it would be interesting and useful to know the reason(s) why S.Long didn't choose to unify Blast, HTH and Killing attack.

 

Anyone knows ?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Merging Blast, HTH and Killing (6E)

 

If you work backwards from Killing, you can get the points to match the existing pricing model with a little trickery and approximation. However, END costs for the equivalent of EB and HA are higher due to their AP being higher.

 

Damage

 

10 points per 1d6.

Face = BODY. Face - 1 = STUN

Non-resistant defenses apply to STUN.

Only Resistant Defense applies to BODY.

No Range.

STR does not add to damage.

 

Ranged: +1/2 Advantage:

Attack has Range = Active Points x 5.

Range Modifier applies.

 

Brutal: +1/2 Advantage:

STR damage can add to Damage, doubling rules apply.

A character does not have to use any STR at all, in which case the attack does only the Damage effect.

 

Hand Attack: -1/2 Modifier to Brutal Advantage:

Damage is Linked to STR.

Thus Damage adds to STR damage 1 for 1; to use 2d6 Damage a character must use 10 STR for instance. A character prevented from using their STR cannot use the Damage effect.

 

Stunning: -1 Limitation

Face = STUN. 1's = 0 BODY, 2-5 = 1 BODY, 6's = 2 BODY.

Non-resistant defenses apply to STUN and BODY.

 

Non-Lethal: -1 Limitation

Non-resistant defenses apply to STUN and BODY.

 

 

Ranged Killing Attack: Damage, Ranged (+1/2); 15 points per d6

 

Hand Killing Attack: Damage, Brutal (+1/2); 15 points per d6

 

Ranged Attack: Damage, Ranged (+1/2), Stunning (-1), Non-Lethal (-1): 5 per d6

 

Hand Attack: Damage, Brutal (Hand Attack, +0); Stunning (-1), Non-Lethal (-1): 3.33 per d6

 

 

Brutal Ranged Killing Attack: Damage, Ranged (+1/2), Brutal (+1/2); 20 points per d6

 

Brutal Ranged Attack: Damage, Ranged (+1/2), Brutal (+1/2), Stunning (-1), Non-Lethal (-1): 6.66 per d6

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Merging Blast, HTH and Killing (6E)

 

If you flip it around you get lower AP on HA and EB, but the costs don't work out quite right.

 

 

Damage

 

5 points per 1d6

Face = STUN. 1's = 0 BODY, 2-5 = 1 BODY, 6's = 2 BODY.

Non-resistant defenses apply to STUN and BODY.

No Range.

STR does not add to damage.

 

Lethal +1 Advantage

Face = BODY. Face - 1 = STUN

Non-resistant defenses apply to STUN.

Only Resistant Defense applies to BODY.

 

Deadly +1/2 Advantage

Non-resistant defenses apply to STUN only if target has Resistant Defenses.

 

Ranged: +1/2 Advantage:

Attack has Range = Active Points x 5.

Range Modifier applies.

 

Brutal: +1/2 Advantage:

STR damage can add to Damage, doubling rules apply.

A character does not have to use any STR at all, in which case the attack does only the Damage effect.

 

Hand Attack: -1/2 Modifier to Brutal Advantage:

Damage is Linked to STR.

Thus Damage adds to STR damage 1 for 1; to use 2d6 Damage a character must use 10 STR for instance. A character prevented from using their STR cannot use the Damage effect.

 

 

 

Ranged Killing Attack: Damage, Lethal (+1), Deadly (+1/2), Ranged (+1/2); 15 points per d6

 

Hand Killing Attack: Damage, Lethal (+1), Deadly (+1/2), Brutal (+1/2); 15 points per d6

 

Ranged Attack: Damage, Ranged (+1/2): 7.5 per d6

 

Hand Attack: Damage, Brutal (Hand Attack, +0): 5 per d6

[Crypt]

Re: Merging Blast, HTH and Killing (6E)

 

Attack has Range = Active Points x 5.

 

Let's use the 6E where Range in meters=10XBase.

[Crypt]

Re: Merging Blast, HTH and Killing (6E)

 

A ranged blast works out at 7.5 points (active) and 4.3 points (real) under this suggestion. I'm not sure that works: it makes it largely pointless in MPs or VPPs but over effective if you ignore AP caps and just buy it 'straight' (you could get just 8 dice into a 60 point framework but 14 dice as a 'straight' 60 point power).

 

But is it an actual trouble ? After all the consequences of AP caps in Frameworks occur with any power, even those not house-ruled.

Why Blast, RKA and HKA should be favored by ignoring their inherent advantages ?

 

 

I would not base it on the cost of STR (even though it is the same) because STR does other stuff than damage and I really do not like the idea of a 'mandatory modifier' - if you need anything mandatory then you need a separate power.

 

But basing it on STR sounds logical and consistent to me, a lot more than changing the value of existing modifiers.

The fact that the 'no manipulation' modifier is said "mandatory" is mainly a manner of speaking; it works exactly like any limitation. (it's hard enough to speak about house rules on a forum so i don't want to follow the heretic path which would inevitably lead to the removal of TK...)

[The Main Man]

Re: Merging Blast, HTH and Killing (6E)

 

For starters, Killing Damage is a +0 Advantage.

 

 

Why? Because 3 DC's of Normal Damage costs the same as 3 DC's of Killing Damage.

 

 

And why should Killing Damage not be worth more?

 

Because you don't always want to kill your opponent.

[Crypt]

Re: Merging Blast, HTH and Killing (6E)

 

For starters, Killing Damage is a +0 Advantage.

 

 

Why? Because 3 DC's of Normal Damage costs the same as 3 DC's of Killing Damage.

 

 

And why should Killing Damage not be worth more?

 

Because you don't always want to kill your opponent.

 

I don't believe this is a good reason. A least it looks very poor to me.

If you don't want to kill it's more logical to use a Stun Only modifier.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Merging Blast, HTH and Killing (6E)

 

Or don't buy a killing attack/modifier

[Crypt]

Re: Merging Blast, HTH and Killing (6E)

 

and the Stun Only limitation of Blast is worth -0 so i wonder why the Killing Attack Power should be seen as having an hidden inherent "Not Only Stun" limitation different from -0 which would explain the fact that it costs the same per DC as Blast despite the obvious fact that it's more effective because of its lethality versus non-resistant defenses.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Merging Blast, HTH and Killing (6E)

 

Can it be done? Sure. 6E brings it even further within reach. However, I'm not sure what I think of the particular implementation. Making it a choice but calling it a single "Power" could be one way of doing it without requiring Modifiers, since it's not likely we're going to be able to cope well with one attack that involves several different mechanisms. Actually it might be interesting to simply have a chart of Base Points per die given the different effects. e.g. Str adds? that's +1 Base Points per die; ranged? that's +1 Base Points per die; only Resistant Defenses apply? That's +2 Base Points per die; roll Body instead of Stun? that's +5 Base Points per die. Or something along those lines.

[Hierax]

Re: Merging Blast, HTH and Killing (6E)

 

Attack Power (5 Base Points per 1d6) with a +2 Killing (either HTH or Ranged) Advantage (Steve Long HeroGlyphs Digital Hero #30 p.3-4). Killing attack dice cost 3x what Normal Dice cost, 15 points per d6, just like the old Killing Attack.

[Nevenall]

Re: Merging Blast, HTH and Killing (6E)

 

I like the concept but I'd eliminate the killing damage rolling mechanics entirely and make everything rolled like Normal Damage.

If the Body of the attack applies against Resistant Defense we'll call that the Killing Advantage for +1/2. Stun still applies against Normal + Resistant.

 

3 points = 1d6 Damage vs Normal Defenses, No Range, No STR Adds Damage

4 points = 1d6 Damage plus Range OR STR Adds OR Killing

6 points = 1d6 Killing Damage plus Range or STR Adds

 

Obviously killing damage becomes far less random because it's rolled like normal damage, and slightly more expensive, whereas Blast becomes slightly cheaper.

 

One reason I like this is that it's makes me more comfortable allowing any amount of STR to add to a killing attack.

 

Forgot to metion that STR would add according to the cost of each die.

So, 4 STR adds 1d6 Normal Damage, but 6 STR is required for 1d6 Killing Damage

[Nevenall]

Re: Merging Blast, HTH and Killing (6E)

 

I think it would be interesting and useful to know the reason(s) why S.Long didn't choose to unify Blast, HTH and Killing attack.

 

Anyone knows ?

 

 

Considering the discussion that removing COM caused can you imagine what messing with the attack powers would do?

[Crypt]

Re: Merging Blast, HTH and Killing (6E)

 

but I'd eliminate the killing damage rolling mechanics entirely and make everything rolled like Normal Damage.

 

So do i

 

 

Considering the discussion that removing COM caused can you imagine what messing with the attack powers would do?

 

popularity brings inertia...

[prestidigitator]

Re: Merging Blast, HTH and Killing (6E)

 

Attack Power (5 Base Points per 1d6) with a +2 Killing (either HTH or Ranged) Advantage (Steve Long HeroGlyphs Digital Hero #30 p.3-4). Killing attack dice cost 3x what Normal Dice cost' date=' 15 points per d6, just like the old Killing Attack.[/quote']

 

Problem is, another +2 Advantage on that (Affects Physical World anybody?) would cost +10 Active Points per die of Killing Damage, instead of the +30 Active Points per die that it should.

 

If we had multiplicative Advantages and Limitations this difference would sort itself out, but I doubt anyone is ready to discuss that. Near as I can tell, I've been the only one for it for the past 5 years. Heh heh.

[The Main Man]

Re: Merging Blast, HTH and Killing (6E)

 

Or don't buy a killing attack/modifier

 

Yes, that is precisely the point.Buying a Killing Advantage and then making it STUN Only is redundant, because 1) a power must use it's purchased advantages; 2) Killing Attacks no longer require resistant defenses versus STUN damage; and 3) this would thusly mean that a STUN Only Killing Attack is negative - what's the point of the Killing advantage then?