Drains and Suppresses

[薔薇語]

I figured that before I go bother Steve with I question, I'd get a general consensus from my fellow HEROphiles.

 

First, the situation (purposed as example, and so shouldn't be taken as all encompassing of possible examples):

 

Agents: Person A, B, and C.

 

Person A: Poisoner who inflicts B with a rare and deadly poison (no specific build concept in mind but probably an RKA with Damage over time and other relevant parts)

 

Person B: The Poisoned Person-

 

Person C: Poison expert or healer.

 

Meta-game situation: Person C (the PC) is seeking to build a general power to stop poisons from affecting individuals. Be it a cure all antidote or magic. Initial concept is to use Drain (or suppress) to reduce the effects of the power affecting Person B.

 

Question: Can Drain be used to effect the lingering effects of a power? When discussing Suppress on page 195 of 6e, Steve states that in the case of Suppression fields, power that did not start in the field but pass into it or through it can be affected by the suppress. This leads me to believe that as a general rules concept that the scope of drains and suppresses are greater than just affecting items listed directly on a character sheet (I.e., affecting a power that is in use but without having to make note of the effect on the character sheet for whom the power belongs). In correspondence with this general line of thinking, a drain / suppress that operated in this manner would have no effect (baring unusual, and currently undefined situations) on Person A's character sheet (i.e., draining the effects of their poison does not drain the poison power they have listed but rather only the one occurrence of it).

 

Does this intuition of mine sit well with you all? Does it make sense and would you allow it?

 

If you agree with that intuition, then how does one handle "Rate of Return?" If the drain has yet to fully effect the afflicting power before turning off, does the afflicted power get a RoR? This seems less clear to me.

 

Anyway, the goal of this was to get an idea of what you all think and see if anyone knows of a rules statement that disagrees or agrees with me.

 

Thank you,

La Rose.

[kefkakrazy]

Re: Drains and Suppresses

 

Dispel. It takes a constant power and ends the effect immediately; if you're trying to build a power that does "cancel the ongoing effects of poison", "Dispel Poison Effects Xd6" would probably do the trick (I think; I haven't done much with Dispel yet).

 

If you're trying to actually build a field that weakens poison attacks that go through it, though... hum. Dispel is more for "end the power completely;" it specifically can't weaken a power, just turn it off.

[Nevenall]

Re: Drains and Suppresses

 

Technically, no, RKA is an instant power and you can't use adjustment powers on the effects of instant powers. The supression field rules are slightly different because the instant power going through the field hasn't had effect yet.

Damage over Time states that there must be a way to cancel the rest of the damage, so GM fiat could allow Dispel or whatever power to be the thing that can cancel the effects of a DoT posion.

 

Another thought I had was what about Life Support: Immunity to Poison with Usable by Other?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Drains and Suppresses

 

There are just too many ways to build poison to come up with one simple way to defeat them. Hmm. I suppose a broad spectrum 'Healing' is your best bet. OTOH a 'poison antidote kit' could be built as a VPP with a detect to work out the right kind of poison (and so right kind of antidote) or relevant skills.

 

I like the LS: Poison idea but it technically only works if the poison power has been built with a limitation 'does not work against LS:Poison'.

 

As to whether a dispel can affect an already administered poison - again - it depends how the poison is built. A KA made constant and uncontrolled can certainly be dispelled, whereas a KA that does a lot of damage - but that damage only affects you after a period of time - may not be dispellable as the damage has already happened (and you can not dispel the effects of a damaging power).

[Beast]

Re: Drains and Suppresses

 

you could use healing to counter the affects of damage already done

also a long lasting aid could be used to soak up damage done over time

[薔薇語]

Re: Drains and Suppresses

 

Hmm, there seems to be some confusion about my post. I am not looking for alternative build concepts, nor am I looking for a means to stop the specific build above. My concern is if Drain can be used to effect the lingering effects of an instant power. I.e., If someone uses Mind Control on another character (with the special effect of truth serum), is is book legal to use Drain (general antidote) to negate out the effects of the M.C. after it has taken effect? If so, how do you know this (i.e., cite the book or Steve).

 

Thanks for all the help guys.

 

La Rose.

[dmjalund]

Re: Drains and Suppresses

 

:tsk:If someone defines something with special effect Poison (IMO) it should be stopped by LS: Poison.If the designer was too lazy to include the "does not work against LS:Poison" limitation in his build then thats his bad luck/oversight.

[Beast]

Re: Drains and Suppresses

 

for me a drain would not work as you would be draining the power and not it's effect(it has already been used)

you could boost the victims ego roll

a counter mind control to return free will to the victim

 

Hmm, there seems to be some confusion about my post. I am not looking for alternative build concepts, nor am I looking for a means to stop the specific build above. My concern is if Drain can be used to effect the lingering effects of an instant power. I.e., If someone uses Mind Control on another character (with the special effect of truth serum), is is book legal to use Drain (general antidote) to negate out the effects of the M.C. after it has taken effect? If so, how do you know this (i.e., cite the book or Steve).

 

Thanks for all the help guys.

 

La Rose.

[薔薇語]

Re: Drains and Suppresses

 

:tsk:If someone defines something with special effect Poison (IMO) it should be stopped by LS: Poison.If the designer was too lazy to include the "does not work against LS:Poison" limitation in his build then thats his bad luck/oversight.

 

I tend to agree with you. There are some issues with using "LS: Immunity to Poisons" as "UAA" to negate the effects of being poisoned. Although I might allow that depending on the overall setting. But my concern is only if Drain can be used to stop the lingering effects of instant powers (regardless of special effect).

 

La Rose.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Drains and Suppresses

 

Hmm, there seems to be some confusion about my post. I am not looking for alternative build concepts, nor am I looking for a means to stop the specific build above. My concern is if Drain can be used to effect the lingering effects of an instant power. I.e., If someone uses Mind Control on another character (with the special effect of truth serum), is is book legal to use Drain (general antidote) to negate out the effects of the M.C. after it has taken effect? If so, how do you know this (i.e., cite the book or Steve).

 

Thanks for all the help guys.

 

La Rose.

 

No. Definitely not.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Drains and Suppresses

 

:tsk:If someone defines something with special effect Poison (IMO) it should be stopped by LS: Poison.If the designer was too lazy to include the "does not work against LS:Poison" limitation in his build then thats his bad luck/oversight.

 

 

Well, yes, but....does that mean that if someone has LS: Fire, they should be immune to fire attacks, even if the designer was too lazy to build in the relevant limitation? It could be pretty cheap to be immune to almost everything.

 

What if they have defined it as a non-terrestrial poison? They are not covered under normal LS rules, and you'll suddenly find loads of poisons derived from meteorite debris if you enforce that one.

 

I have a specific way of building poisons and diseases, and if I'm running a game and someone else wants a character with a poison or disease power, I'll look very carefully at the build. Hero does not require build guidelines, which is why it can be very difficult to defend against some effects - there can be an enormous number of ways of building any given effect. Don't be afraid to impose build guidelines on players.

[Naanomi]

Re: Drains and Suppresses

 

Being Immune to poison is one thing (if I wanted total Immunity I would combine the LS with an excessive amount of Damage Negation: vs Poison SFX). Curing poison, however, seems like it should be something that conceptually isn't too difficult but, in practice, is. So far to 'cure poison', we need a series of AIDs (only to return to starting value), some Dispels, Healing (only for poison damage), Transform, and some way to deal with Mental Power poisons (Aid EGO was suggested)... that seems like a whole lot for a seemlingly simple concept!

[薔薇語]

Re: Drains and Suppresses

 

Being Immune to poison is one thing (if I wanted total Immunity I would combine the LS with an excessive amount of Damage Negation: vs Poison SFX). Curing poison' date=' however, seems like it should be something that conceptually isn't too difficult but, in practice, is. So far to 'cure poison', we need a series of AIDs (only to return to starting value), some Dispels, Healing (only for poison damage), Transform, and some way to deal with Mental Power poisons (Aid EGO was suggested)... that seems like a whole lot for a seemlingly simple concept![/quote']

 

 

I don't know if I mentioned this in the chat or not, but the simplest way to ease your concerns (Single PC making himself immune to Poison) is to have him build a persistent, AoE (yourself), and always-on Suppress vs Poison Special effect. The Suppress is cumulative and when it is an AoE, it can prevent and neutralize poison powers that would attempt to affect the PC.

 

La Rose.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Drains and Suppresses

 

I think the idea was to use LS: Poison with 'Useable on Others' to make the target immune to poison - but that still would not counter any effect that had already occured.

 

Transform could almost certainly prevent any additional damage accruing (i.e. remove the poison from your system), but you'd need healing to get back any damage already caused. Those two powers along should do it, and it is not THAT expensive:

 

Purify the system: 10 points Major Transform 1d6 (Target to poison free target)

 

PLUS

 

Fixing the damage: 19 points Healing Everything affected by poison 1 point, Poison Effects (+1/2), Decreased Re-use Duration (1 Turn; +1 1/2), Expanded Effect (x8 Characteristics or Powers simultaneously) (+3 1/2) (19 Active Points)

 

So you clear out the poison (and any ongoing effects) with a transform (more reliable for the reasons given above than a cumulative dispel, but you may prefer that approach for your own reasons) and then fix the damage (albeit pretty slowly) with the healing: 29 active points sand you can counteract any poison - and its effects. I say slowly, this will bring you back from near death in a matter of minutes - that is actually ridiculously fast. You might want to automate the process (make the powers constant or use 'Damage over time' - more expensive but less labour intensive), but this is about the cheapest way - in terms of active points - you can obviously add whatever limitations you like to bring the real cost down.