Dragon-riders of Pern

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Dragon-riders of Pern

 

I'm sorry if I'm smacking anyone in the face, but really -- 'It's bloody cold' is all you need. It's trans-dimensional space, the Void, whatever you want to call it. 'Bloody cold' is all you need. -1 END per phase should be enough, and either disallow the time travel ("The queen forbids it") or just remember that a) temporal travel takes extra time (Lessa almost dies from her 400-plus-Turn jump) and that being alive at the same time as yourself has serious psychic shock issues.

 

Dragons are human-like in intelligence; 8-12 typical range, with the metallics being typically brighter than the chromatics. Psych lims on all but the golds, very common to common, and TOTAL -- must obey queens. (Not sure if that was in those postings.) Also, the higher-echelon dragons do not necessarily Impress to smarter people; there were plenty of examples of dumb-ass bronzeriders, just not as PCs.

 

 

T'rod, on bronze Beltanth

Ista Weyr, PernMUSH

[RexMundi]

Re: Dragon-riders of Pern

 

True you can use a lot of Handwavium as an ingredient. But. If you CAN build it, and make it functional, and not over priced, why not.

 

~Rex

[AlHazred]

Re: Dragon-riders of Pern

 

How's this look?

 

Green Dragon


VAL    CHA    Cost    Roll    Notes
40    STR    30    17-    HTH Damage 8d6  END [8]
18    DEX    16    13-
20    CON    10    13-
8    INT    -2    11-    PER Roll 11-
10    EGO    0    11-
20    PRE    10    13-    PRE Attack: 4d6
3    OCV    0
3    DCV    0
3    OMCV    0
3    DMCV    0
3    SPD    10    Phases:  4, 8, 12
8    PD    6    8 PD (0 rPD)
8    ED    6    8 ED (0 rED)
4    REC    0
20    END    0
16    BODY    6    
32    STUN    6

Movement    Cost    Meters    Notes
RUNNING    0    24m/48m    END [2]
SWIMMING    0    4m/8m    END [1]
LEAPING    -1    2m    2m forward, 1m upward
FLIGHT        24m/48m

TELEPORTATION        10m/20m


Characteristics Total: 97

Cost    Powers
22    Fiery Breath: RKA 2d6, Area Of Effect (24m Line; +1/2); Increased Endurance Cost (x2 END; -1/2), No Range (-1/2) - END=8
22    Draconic Weapons: Multipower, 22-point reserve - END=
4v    1)  Bite: HKA 1d6+1 (4d6 w/STR) - END=2
4v    2)  Talons: HKA 1d6 (3d6 w/STR), Armor Piercing (+1/4) - END=2
2v    3)  Tail Bash: HA +2d6; Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/4) - END=1
8    Scaly Skin: Resistant (+1/2) for up to 16 Active Points of 8 PD/8 ED - END=1
30    Tough Body: Physical Damage Reduction, Resistant, 25% plus Energy Damage Reduction, Resistant, 25% - END=0
12    Heavy: Knockback Resistance -12m - END=0
24    Wings: Multipower, 24-point reserve - END=
2f    1)  Flying: Flight 24m; Restrainable (-1/2) - END=2
1f    2)  Wing Buffet: HA +1d6; Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/4) - END=1
5    Tail: Extra Limb (1), Inherent (+1/4); Limited Manipulation (-1/4) - END=0
12    Long Legs: Running +12m (24m total) - END=1
12    Rider Impression: Mind Link , Human class of minds, One Specific Mind, Psychic Bond, Unlimited range in this dimension; Unified Power (Psionic Powers; -1/4) - END=0
5    Poor Memory: Teleportation: Floating Fixed Location (1 Locations) - END=0
15    Go Between: Multipower, 30-point reserve, all slots Extra Time (Extra Phase, -3/4), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4) - END=
1f    1)  Different Time, Different Place: Extra-Dimensional Movement (Single Dimension, Any Time) (25 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x8 END; -3 1/2), Side Effects (must EDM to Floating Fixed Location at another time or both dragon and rider never emerge from Between; -1), Extra Time (Extra Phase, could be much higher depending on amount of Time Travel; -3/4), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4) - END=16
1f    2)  Same Time, Different Place: Teleportation 10m, MegaScale (1m = 10,000 km; +2); Increased Endurance Cost (x3 END; -1), Extra Time (Extra Phase, -3/4), Can Only Teleport To  Floating Fixed Locations (-1/2), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4) - END=9

Powers Total: 182


Cost    Skills
4    +2 OCV with Fiery Breath

0    Acting 8-
0    AK: Home Territory 8-
3    Climbing 13-
0    Concealment 8-
0    Conversation 8-
0    Deduction 8-
2    KS: Dragon Lore 11-
2    KS: Pernish History 11-
0    Language:  Pernese (idiomatic)
2    Navigation (Air) 11-
0    Persuasion 8-
0    PS: Dragon Abilities 11-
0    Shadowing 8-
3    Stealth 13-
2    Survival (Mountain) 11-

Skills Total: 18



Value    Complications
15    Physical Complication:  Enormous (up to 8m tall) (Frequently; Slightly Impairing)
15    Physical Complication:  Limited Manipulation (Frequently; Slightly Impairing)
20    Psychological Complication:  Must Obey Queens (Common; Total)

Complications Points: 50

Base Points: 297
Experience: 0
Experience Unspent: 0
Total Character Cost: 297

[RexMundi]

Re: Dragon-riders of Pern

 

Looking much better. I'd be tempted to set the Breath Weapon up with an end reserve, that could only be replenished via eating fire stone, but that's a very good foundation build with a proper "feel" to it.

 

~Rex

[AlHazred]

Re: Dragon-riders of Pern

 

I was under the impression they had enough usage to go through the Threadfall for hours. How long should one dragon be able to breathe?

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Dragon-riders of Pern

 

Under the impression -- har har.

 

Rex Mundi's got a good idea; a dragon needs to chew/swallow/digest firestone (a 'phosphene-bearing rock') in order to breathe fire. In Fall, it gets fed by its rider during lull times (some of which are 'forced', i.e. the dragon withdraws from fighting if it's coming down too heavily), and the riders -- which carry something between six and ten sacks of 'stone -- also receive resupply mid-flight of sacks thrown by second-year weyrlings (Riders in training). So ... flame expulsion should be able to be Constant, if necessary... one sack should be good for three or four regular bursts, let's say.

 

I should also note that dragons should have one Fixed Location that Activates on an 17-, namely the sky above their home Weyr. (Which should be changeable if they get transferred, but that's rare.) The dragons' RIDER should have a small catalogue of Fixed Locations that he can 'feed' to the dragon, dependent in his case on an RSR (as a Weyrling) or just on an 17- or something -- because ANY Rider can screw up. Nota bene: there is NO 'safe teleport' option.

 

Likewise, dragons and firelizards go 'between' at a moment's notice, and show up anywhere on the planet. As a GM override, I'd simply give the dragon planetwide teleportation range (technically interstellar, but no dragonrider's made the trip or gotten a good enough image, so ...) and permit them to do the 'within sight personal-scale' teleport for free -- and the planetwide with no 'full-phase' action required. Usable as a Defensive Action, actually, because that's what their instinct is when a danger comes near -- to between away from it.

 

As for the rest, Al-Hazred -- ummm. Take away combat (claw/bite) abilities, tail buffets, etc; define the claw and bite as being KAs if you want, but nothing else is needed. These are not, emphatically, D&D dragons. No 'mountain survival'. Hell, no 'Pernese history'. Stealth, or Dragon Lore. Firelizards have fabulous long-term memory, perhaps even racial memory; 9th-Pass firelizards remembered the arrival of the first settlers. Dragons, on the other hand, have mega-crappy memory past four or seven days. (See the DLG.)

 

They also don't have scales; Pernese dragonhide is leathery, not scaly.

 

T'rod, on Bronze Beltanth

Quickfire Wingleader

Ista Weyr, PernMUSH

[RexMundi]

Re: Dragon-riders of Pern

 

Fire Lizard long term memory is pretty impressive, even if it's Parrot like thought processing (those familiar with the latest rounds of avian intelligence testing will understand that). Wyrms points are spot on again, and easily sculpted into Al's template, which I feel is getting REALLY close.

 

~Rex

[AlHazred]

Re: Dragon-riders of Pern

 

A'ight, I'll give it another go-over when I get home. I gave them KS: Pernese History because I remembered a conversation betwixt a human and what I remembered to be a dragon but might have been a fire lizard, now that I think on't. I was tempted to give them the 'lair' Fixed Location, but couldn't remember any specific example; again, I've not read the vast majority of the books.

 

The attack powers are rather mild, but I can remove those as well. I was most iffy on the Wing Buffets, since I remember they were sensitive to wing damage, but I thought it possible that might have been from Thread.

 

Teleporting on the personal scale -- what are we talking about? Battlefields? Across town? Down the mountainside?

 

As a side rule, I'd consider allowing a Rider to maintain 1 Floating Fixed Location for every 5 points of INT or something like that; the dragon still has to pay for them, but they're Linked to the Mind Link power.

 

One thing I'm absolutely not clear on is how far can a dragon's breath reach?

[RexMundi]

Re: Dragon-riders of Pern

 

The Rider Idea is more then a good one because that's how all the fun stuff starts in the books (such as the time travel and such as well, the Dragons draw heavily from the riders viewpoints). As for the point teleport, That COULD, be easily represented by Defensive Levels, and then just SFXed as a teleport. To get closer to the book, One could use it as an Abort maneuver perhaps?

 

~Rex

[Susano]

Re: Dragon-riders of Pern

 

Extra DCV, Costs END works for dodging defined as rapid teleports. It's been used in before in published books.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Dragon-riders of Pern

 

Thinking about it, 'Flying Dodge' or 'Dive for Cover' -- with the between teleportational F/X -- would probably cover it, used as an Abort. Most Thread clumps are essentially AoE attacks; very infrequently would it be considered a regular attack. Threadscoring would happen if the dragon's CV was still hit, or the DFC roll failed.

 

The problem with their teleporting is that their instinctive escape-from-danger teleporting usually would go to the dragon's Fixed Location -- or, if trained this way (and this would be a very intelligent option), a certain distance down and away from the Fall (usually 'forward and down', because Thread falls in sort of a down-angled sheet or ribbon). I suppose it'd be best to simply give them a good amount -- 20"? -- of regular Teleport for this sort of purpose, then rely on the 0 DCV out-of-combat can-go-anywhere to get you back into the fight -- '5", Megascale 1"=100m' sort of thing, to go to 'that point in the sky there'.

 

Hm.

 

25 Between: Multipower, 25-point reserve

2 u) Teleportation 12" (24 Active Points): 2 END

2 u) Teleportation 5", MegaScale (1" = 10,000 km; +1 1/4), Can Be Scaled Down 1" = 10m (+1/4) (25 Active Points); Can Only Teleport To Visible Points or Floating Fixed Locations (-1/2): 2 END

 

Again, thinking about it, the 'down and away' training would be better, at least for the build; it lets you just 'go', with something that isn't going to take a half-phase or full-phase before you can go. However, thinking about it, dragons are never written as going between on their own without a solid image in their Rider's minds. In game terms, they'd take all their locations from the Riders -- and if the Rider screws up (as is often possible), the pair can between anywhere. One particular gruesome image was of a dragon/rider pair that was found inside the rock of the Weyr as they were carving out new tunnels. And, of course, the Rider can screw up and fail to properly image the destination (lack of concentration, tiredness) or just forget to do so (fear, pain).

[RexMundi]

Re: Dragon-riders of Pern

 

Hmmm. Maybe have the Rider have to pay the points for the locations? Fire Lizards poof around everywhere, but that's a good point with the dragons. I can't recall off the top of my head, a Dragon going between without a Rider directing it, Other then, a dragon suicide upon death of the rider.

 

~Rex

[Ian Mackinder]

Re: Dragon-riders of Pern

 

Hmmm. Maybe have the Rider have to pay the points for the locations? Fire Lizards poof around everywhere' date=' but that's a good point with the dragons. I can't recall off the top of my head, a Dragon going between without a Rider directing it, Other then, a dragon suicide upon death of the rider.[/quote']

 

There have been a number of instances of dragons going between without their rider. Doesn't seem to be any special risk attached to it - no explicit warnings NOT to do this that I have ever seen. Ruth did so a number of times in 'The White Dragon' (not necessarily the best example, I grant you, since Ruth often bends "the rules" somewhat). But there was that instance in 'Dragonquest', when F'nor and Canth made their solo jump to the Red Star. Every dragon, fire lizard and watch wher on the plenet totally freaked - and then a whole bunch of dragons went between so they could all arrive at one spot and help (what was left of) F'nor and Canth upon their return.

 

There was also that instance of the two queens fighting earlier in 'Dragonquest' - they went between during that fight. Then again, they didn't come back.

 

I think it is a case of Pern's dragons seldom having the need or motivation to go between on their own. Generally, most of them only seem to fly riderless when either playing or mating. The rest of the time, their rider is physically with them.

 

Based on observation, there is probably cause for a Psych Lim for both Dragon and Rider. They might be linked telepathically, but there does also seem to be a definite preference to remain in reasonably close proximity as well. Wherver one goes so, almost always, the other does as well.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Dragon-riders of Pern

 

There have been a number of instances of dragons going between without their rider. Doesn't seem to be any special risk attached to it - no explicit warnings NOT to do this that I have ever seen. Ruth did so a number of times in 'The White Dragon' (not necessarily the best example, I grant you, since Ruth often bends "the rules" somewhat). But there was that instance in 'Dragonquest', when F'nor and Canth made their solo jump to the Red Star. Every dragon, fire lizard and watch wher on the plenet totally freaked - and then a whole bunch of dragons went between so they could all arrive at one spot and help (what was left of) F'nor and Canth upon their return.

 

There was also that instance of the two queens fighting earlier in 'Dragonquest' - they went between during that fight. Then again, they didn't come back.

 

I think it is a case of Pern's dragons seldom having the need or motivation to go between on their own. Generally, most of them only seem to fly riderless when either playing or mating. The rest of the time, their rider is physically with them.

 

Based on observation, there is probably cause for a Psych Lim for both Dragon and Rider. They might be linked telepathically, but there does also seem to be a definite preference to remain in reasonably close proximity as well. Wherver one goes so, almost always, the other does as well.

 

Very, very incorrect.

 

I agree that Ruth bends the rules; he's the sole exception. However, in every other case, you're looking at either a) a Rider directing the dragon, or the dragons dying. F'nor and Canth went to the Red Star because F'nor directed him to do so. While it could be argued that all the Weyrs came to help lower Canth to the ground, the 400-500 dragons of Benden could well have done the same thing. Every dragon, firelizard, and watchwher in Benden was freaking, note. As for the two queens earlier in that book, betweened half because they were already dying, half because of massive confusion, and half due to the passions of the mating flight.

 

The dragons can either see their location, or else they receive between locations from their Rider -- or they don't come out again. The mind link also has a 'limited range' -- riders and dragons can't hear each other on the other side of the continent.

 

Interesting note, however: dragons apparently DO have a limited 'safe blind teleport', in that they never between into each other.

[Ian Mackinder]

Re: Dragon-riders of Pern

 

F'nor and Canth went to the Red Star because F'nor directed him to do so. While it could be argued that all the Weyrs came to help lower Canth to the ground' date=' the 400-500 dragons of Benden could well have done the same thing. Every dragon, firelizard, and watchwher in [i']Benden[/i] was freaking, note. As for the two queens earlier in that book, betweened half because they were already dying, half because of massive confusion, and half due to the passions of the mating flight

 

Sorry, but you are very very VERY incorrect.

 

First off, Ruth is a special case, but (based on how casually others accepted this) his flying and fighting Threadfall without rider was seen as "somewhat" unusual, nothing more. Seemed to be absolutely no concern about his going Between whilst in that mode. Given how much interest there is in all his "special" abilities, it does seem extremely odd that this particular ability goes completely without comment - ASSUMING Dragons need a rider to go Between in the first place (which I do not believe).

 

Next. At NO time did I say Canth went to the Red Star of his own volition so let's get that out of the way.

 

I mentioned that part only to put subsequent events into context. Dragons apparently went between from all over and zeroed in on Benden so they could save F'nor and Canth from going SPLAT on return. I think it is 'Dragonsinger' (the one where Menolly first comes to Harpers Hall) that has an interesting perspective on this event. Menolly gets some feedback via her fire lizards, enough to freak her out as well. Also note that the dragon "on duty" at the Hall immediately takes flight (MINUS RIDER), and goes between to join the effort at Benden. All mentioned quite clearly in that book, as is the fact that this dragon (and presumably all the others who did something similar,) soon return to their riders unassisted.

 

As for the two queens earlier in that book' date=' [i']betweened[/i] half because they were already dying, half because of massive confusion, and half due to the passions of the mating flight

 

So that's THREE halves? Seriously injured, more than likely. Confused, probably.

 

But I think their going between was an instinctive defensive move by one or both that went seriously wrong, not suicide. Each was hellbent on driving away the rival so that they could mate, not on dying.

[RexMundi]

Re: Dragon-riders of Pern

 

*Starts Reading* Just picked up, the ENTIRE series, from the used book store, for 12 bucks. SO, I'm going to read them all again, minus the dolphin book, and then foot note the events. After that, I'll post more. Shouldn't take to long. I'm still trying to figure out how the first printing of the paperbacks, are only like a half inch thick, while the current printing, is like an inch and a half.

 

~Rex

[Ian Mackinder]

Re: Dragon-riders of Pern

 

Different font, maybe, and/or a different amount of editing.

[RexMundi]

Re: Dragon-riders of Pern

 

Seems to be a theme with a lot of books. My first printing paperback copy of Starship Troopers is as thick as a good coaster maybe, but the current release for it looks like the Encyclopedia Britannica. I swear though, after picking up all these Dragonrider books at the used book store, that more then Half of them Were Mine originally (Had this happen with some of the Jack Chalker books I found, opened up the back cover and there was my old glyph I still use to mark my book property). Anyway, finished the first book last night half way through the second. Worth the money to get them all again if anything just for the old nostalgia read.

 

~Rex

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Dragon-riders of Pern

 

My apologies, Ian -- I didn't think to toss the Harper Hall trilogy into the mix. It could be argued (considering Menolly's reaction to Brekke's psychic call) that if Brekke could talk to all dragons the way Lessa could (and, for the purposes of the story, the amount of distress she was under could be considered a 'push' of the Mind Link) then she subconsciously fed Canth's descent-path into the minds of all the dragons who weren't actually at Benden.

 

HOWEVER.

 

This was a one-time-only event, the way Ruth is a one-time-only weirdo dragon. Again and again throughout the books, it's stated that if the Rider doesn't give his dragon a firm location, anything could happen, and often does. In HERO terms, I'd call that 'can only Teleport to in-sight locations or those given by Rider'. I do not say that dragons cannot between without their Rider, just that they need to be fed the location they're going to, IF it isn't right there in front of them.

 

Firelizards, on the other hand, can go bloody anywhere...

[Ian Mackinder]

Re: Dragon-riders of Pern

 

Regarding the importance of the rider feeding proper coordinates to his / her dragon, that is not saying that the dragon cannot go Between, only that the rider has to be careful when doing the navigation fot the both of them. The problem outlined is that of providing contradictory or otherwise vague coordinates that may confuse the dragon - their own navigation style is probably more instinctive and casual than intellectual and precise.

 

I repectfully maintain that Pern dragons can go Between without their rider, it is just that they very seldom have any need to.

 

And ro repeat a previous comment, note that when the excitement of rescuing F'nor and Canth was over, all of the dragons that had come to help were able to get back to their riders on their own. NO indications that the stranded riders had to "do" anything to help this. Quite the contrary - their dragons left, and then they came back.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Dragon-riders of Pern

 

Ian, I'm not saying that they CAN'T -- I'm saying that unless they can SEE their destination (which, if they're going back to their Riders, shouldn't be a problem, because the Rider says 'Right here, dammit!!') they have something like a 6- roll to NOT get themselves killed.

 

You're using a one-time-only world-rocking event as proof that they can do it; I'm using the same one-time-only world-rocking event as proof that there was an Author behind the event, and that everything else points to that 6- roll. I've played the series, and that's how we RPed it on-MUSH; I've read it half a dozen times, as well as associated stories, short- or novel-length. The idea that your dragon needs a clear location is written out consistently, people die because they fail, etc. etc. It's a 6- (or a 3-!) roll, in my book. In your book, I guess not.

 

... guess Ruth switched STR/BOD/CON and Stretching for more Teleport locations, eh?

[McCoy]

Re: Dragon-riders of Pern

 

Only read the first two trilogies, and those some decades ago, but am I correct in remembering the Green dragons as the only females other than the Golds, and the Green riders basically the bitches of the others?

[Ian Mackinder]

Re: Dragon-riders of Pern

 

Sound familiar?

 

"...The dragons can either see their location, or else they receive between locations from their Rider -- or they don't come out again. The mind link also has a 'limited range' -- riders and dragons can't hear each other on the other side of the continent...".

 

As I read it, this suggests that at least some dragons could NOT return to their respective riders after that particular event. Yet they did.

 

Moving on.

 

Ian, I'm not saying that they CAN'T -- I'm saying that unless they can SEE their destination (which, if they're going back to their Riders, shouldn't be a problem, because the Rider says 'Right here, dammit!!') they have something like a 6- roll to NOT get themselves killed.

 

You're using a one-time-only world-rocking event as proof that they can do it;

 

... which they did. Awkward, that. You have an explanation for this that is consistent with your own views, which is fine by me. I just disagree, is all.

 

I'm using the same one-time-only world-rocking event as proof that there was an Author behind the event' date=' and that everything else points to that 6- roll.[/quote']

 

Sorry, but the "everything else" you rather sweepingly refer to is not evident to me.

 

I've played the series' date=' and that's how we RPed it on-MUSH; I've read it half a dozen times, as well as associated stories, short- or novel-length.[/quote']

 

Which suggests arguably better general background knowledge than mine, for which I compliment you.

 

The idea that your dragon needs a clear location is written out consistently' date=' people die because they fail, etc. etc. It's a 6- (or a 3-!) roll, in my book. In your book, I guess not.[/quote']

 

All depends on one's point of view, I suppose.

 

... guess Ruth switched STR/BOD/CON and Stretching for more Teleport locations' date=' eh? [/quote']

 

I wouldn't know.

 

Said my piece. You've said yours. I suggest we agree to disagree.

[The Suave]

Re: Dragon-riders of Pern

 

I suggest you FIGHT TO THE DEATH!

 

But really, I would love to play in a campaign set in this world, even if only for a short time. I'm confused though, if one might get two PCs, the Dragon and the Rider. I've played under GMs before that allowed you to pretty much dictate what your bought Follower tends to do, but other GMs I've seen will take control of the Follower completely (keep in mind, that they do tend to stay in the Follower's "character"). Thoughts on this?

[Ian Mackinder]

Re: Dragon-riders of Pern

 

The impression I get is that the rider dominates in the bonded pairing. But, the dragon (at the very least) provides a moderating / stabilizing influence on the rider. Also, if the dragon is REALLY emotional about something, this certainly spills over to the rider to some extent (flying of a queen comes to mind, and also Lessa's very strong reaction to the egg theft in 'The White Dragon'). I note that there have been a few riders with .... unpleasant personal traits which their dragons might try to deal with but generally seem to go along with.

 

Two PCs as Rider and Dragon COULD work, but it calls for experienced players who can function as a very close-knit team - and one player who doesn't mind being in a comparitively subservient role. I think, in general, having the dragon as an NPC follower works best. Most of the time, they will go along with whatever their rider chooses to do. In extreme situations, they might protest certain actions and (if really pushed) may try to put up some kind of passive resistance, if just to protect their rider from harm.