"Needler" -- sci fi projectile weapon

[Kristopher]

So another player in the science fiction game wants a "needler" -- a weapon that fires a burst of small shards of crystalized drug or poison. It won't penetrate much, but if it does, it delivers a heavy dose to the target.

 

How would you build this concept?

[prestidigitator]

Re: "Needler" -- sci fi projectile weapon

 

I'd probably just use an AVAD vs. Resistant PD (possibly with NND added in). For the NND, or via another Limitation if it is a straight AVAD, you can add applicable Life Support or whatever as an absolute defense (on top of the partial or absolute effects of rPD). Or just let the campaign effects of LS handle it vs. the attack's SFX at the GM's option.

[Rapier]

Re: "Needler" -- sci fi projectile weapon

 

Well it could be the classic:

 

1 pip RKA PLUS xd6 NND (Drug of Choice), RKA Must do BODY

[prestidigitator]

Re: "Needler" -- sci fi projectile weapon

 

Well it could be the classic:

 

1 pip RKA PLUS xd6 NND (Drug of Choice), RKA Must do BODY

 

I'd considered that, but honestly if it's only 1 pt. of KA, isn't that just the same as an AVAD/NND vs. rPD, since even one point of rPD stops the attack from getting through? I suppose if you wanted the KA to be bigger, the multi-power build might start to look appealing again, but.... (I'm actually considering the idea of coming up with an adder that would be the equivalent of a KA that's only used to determine whether a NND attack can penetrate a particular level of armor, since it's not technically allowed for a straight NND. Hmm.)

[Rapier]

Re: "Needler" -- sci fi projectile weapon

 

I'd considered that' date=' but honestly if it's only 1 pt. of KA, isn't that just the same as an AVAD/NND vs. rPD, since even one point of rPD stops the attack from getting through? I suppose if you wanted the KA to be bigger, the multi-power build might start to look appealing again, but.... (I'm actually considering the idea of coming up with an adder that would be the equivalent of a KA that's only used to determine whether a NND attack can penetrate a particular level of armor, since it's not technically allowed for a straight NND. Hmm.)[/quote']

 

Yes, I suppose in effect it IS the same thing. How does that come out on cost? I would think AVAD/NND is going to end up MUCH more expensive.

 

I'm also wondering about defending against it. What you've basically got is 2 Defenses. You can either have rPD (and stop the attack from penetrating) or you can have LS: Immunity to All Terrestrial Poisons (or non-terrestrial biology or something similar). Since the attack can now be defeated by two defenses, shouldn't that be worth a larger discount?

 

And, in particular, I agree with you that pretty much every instance of 'needler' I've ever run across has the needles doing at least a bit more damange than 1 pip (perhaps 1d6K).

[Nevelon]

Re: "Needler" -- sci fi projectile weapon

 

And' date=' in particular, I agree with you that pretty much every instance of 'needler' I've ever run across has the needles doing at least a bit more damange than 1 pip (perhaps 1d6K).[/quote']

 

Depends on the needles. If it is purely crystalized drugs/poison, 1 pip sounds right. The advantage is that they will dissolve and become hard to detect (good for assassins) If we are talking about hypervelocity envenomed slivers of steel, 1d6K sounds better. Penetrating or reduced penetration also fit depending on how you you want to build it. Some needlers work on the "cloud of darts" philosophy, that tear apart unarmored targets (reduced pen). Others fire high speed penetrators, possibly autofire. Depends on what you are trying to model.

 

I'd build the toxin as a linked attack, only if the needler does body. For a pure poison injection system, I might go for a NND, but only for the shooting crystals at people build, not the darts.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: "Needler" -- sci fi projectile weapon

 

I think I am with the crowd on this one.

 

I would decide what level of armour would stop the needles. I would then build the drug or poison and give it the ,limitation of "will not affect targets with (whatever you decided) defences". The value of the limitation will depend on your decision on what would stop the needles.

 

This allows you to effectively ignore the killing attack etc possibilities and focus on the attack and defences of the drug and victim if the victim can be affected.

 

 

Doc

[Sean Waters]

Re: "Needler" -- sci fi projectile weapon

 

Define the problem, I suppose. This is a bit of a literal interpretation, but, hey, you know me, I'm literally a guy.

 

You have a poison: Blast 1d6, Attack Versus Alternate Defense (PD; All Or Nothing; LS: Poison, non-terrestrial or non-organic origin; +1), Does BODY (+1), Damage Over Time (4 damage increments, damage occurs every three Segments, +2 3/4) (29 Active Points)

 

To deliver it you need to get it into your opponent: at present that simply requires a roll to hit. If you hit someone with less than, say, 3 or more points of resistant defence OR 3 or more points of Damage Negation, it goes in, lickety split. If not it does not penetrate.

 

There's no need for the needle to cause any damage at all: needles often don't, not enough to amount to a point of Body anyway. They don't cause a big enough hole to cause much bleeding and these particular needles dissolve almost instantly, so do not penetrate deep enough to cause damage to internal organs.

 

So we go from an attack that hurts anyone who doesn't have LS Poison to an attack that hurts anyone who doesn't have LS Poison OR some resistant defences i.e., as Doc said, we're limiting the attack more - so what is that worth? In a superhero game where almost everyone you're going to get into a fight with would have 3+ resistant defence, perhaps -1 (well, arguably at least -2, but comparing to examples in the book, limitations are VERY stingy in this regard).

 

So, OAF (gun), probably make it autofire and 0 END (needlers in fiction often have a crystal or liquid cartridge capable of producing hundreds if not thousands of needles, but you could do it with charges if you like). Let's see...

 

Needle Gun 44 active, 15 real

Blast 1d6, Attack Versus Alternate Defense (PD; All Or Nothing; LS: Poison, non-terrestrial or non-organic origin; +1), Does BODY (+1), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1), Autofire (10 shots; +1), Non-Standard Attack Power (+1), Damage Over Time (4 damage increments, damage occurs every three Segments, +2 3/4) (44 Active Points); OAF (Needle Gun; -1), Limited Power Power loses about half of its effectiveness (Cannot penetrate 3 or more points of resistant physical defence; -1)

 

So, 10 shot autofire, each shot that hits does 1d6 normal damage that ignores defences (average 3.5 stun, 1 Body) when it hits and three more times every 3 phases. For most people, 3 needle hits can prove fatal. That is one decent shot.

 

Nasty piece of kit, but then combining autofire and NND does that a lot .

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: "Needler" -- sci fi projectile weapon

 

Define the problem, I suppose. This is a bit of a literal interpretation, but, hey, you know me, I'm literally a guy.

 

You have a poison: Blast 1d6, Attack Versus Alternate Defense (PD; All Or Nothing; LS: Poison, non-terrestrial or non-organic origin; +1), Does BODY (+1), Damage Over Time (4 damage increments, damage occurs every three Segments, +2 3/4) (29 Active Points)

 

To deliver it you need to get it into your opponent: at present that simply requires a roll to hit. If you hit someone with less than, say, 3 or more points of resistant defence OR 3 or more points of Damage Negation, it goes in, lickety split. If not it does not penetrate.

 

There's no need for the needle to cause any damage at all: needles often don't, not enough to amount to a point of Body anyway. They don't cause a big enough hole to cause much bleeding and these particular needles dissolve almost instantly, so do not penetrate deep enough to cause damage to internal organs.

 

So we go from an attack that hurts anyone who doesn't have LS Poison to an attack that hurts anyone who doesn't have LS Poison OR some resistant defences i.e., as Doc said, we're limiting the attack more - so what is that worth? In a superhero game where almost everyone you're going to get into a fight with would have 3+ resistant defence, perhaps -1 (well, arguably at least -2, but comparing to examples in the book, limitations are VERY stingy in this regard).

 

So, OAF (gun), probably make it autofire and 0 END (needlers in fiction often have a crystal or liquid cartridge capable of producing hundreds if not thousands of needles, but you could do it with charges if you like). Let's see...

 

Needle Gun 44 active, 15 real

Blast 1d6, Attack Versus Alternate Defense (PD; All Or Nothing; LS: Poison, non-terrestrial or non-organic origin; +1), Does BODY (+1), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1), Autofire (10 shots; +1), Non-Standard Attack Power (+1), Damage Over Time (4 damage increments, damage occurs every three Segments, +2 3/4) (44 Active Points); OAF (Needle Gun; -1), Limited Power Power loses about half of its effectiveness (Cannot penetrate 3 or more points of resistant physical defence; -1)

 

So, 10 shot autofire, each shot that hits does 1d6 normal damage that ignores defences (average 3.5 stun, 1 Body) when it hits and three more times every 3 phases. For most people, 3 needle hits can prove fatal. That is one decent shot.

 

Nasty piece of kit, but then combining autofire and NND does that a lot .

 

Slick build there, Sean

The HERO is strong in this one.

[megaplayboy]

Re: "Needler" -- sci fi projectile weapon

 

A few points of piercing bought for that 1 pip KA could make a world of difference. Perhaps it can penetrate through light body armor...

[Kristopher]

Re: "Needler" -- sci fi projectile weapon

 

"Piercing"?

[megaplayboy]

Re: "Needler" -- sci fi projectile weapon

 

"Piercing"?

 

It's in the APG(and of course, has been mentioned a few places as an option for 5th(and, before that, was in Champs III). Basically, instead of buying AP, which halves defenses regardless of their respective size, you just buy a few "points" worth of Piercing, so the attack ignores, for example, the first 3 points of resistant PD.

[Kristopher]

Re: "Needler" -- sci fi projectile weapon

 

So does that work as an Adder or Advantage or something you stick in a compound power?

[megaplayboy]

Re: "Needler" -- sci fi projectile weapon

 

IIRC it's more of an Adder--it would figure into the total AP/DC of an attack. But if you wanted a high-velocity, sharp needle that could penetrate heavy cloth but be stopped by leather armor or anything tougher, and still didn't do much damage on its own, 1-3 points of rPD piercing (for about 3 points per point) would work pretty well.

[Kristopher]

Re: "Needler" -- sci fi projectile weapon

 

Sounds good.

 

Because this is for a game that doesn't use character points for equipment (unless it's cybernetics or bioenhancments), I wrote it up as "Special -- Ignores 2 rPD" for now, and went with something otherwise similar to Sean's build.

 

Thanks everyone. I'll probably post the weapons list in my thread about the campaign on the Star Hero forum when I'm done with it.

[Kristopher]

Re: "Needler" -- sci fi projectile weapon

 

Posted the rough draft of most of the weapons here: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/75419-Star-HERO-with-not-magic-really-but/page4?p=1963251