150 Disavantage points too restrictive?

[Mr. Negative]

Originally posted by TheAuthority

My game, my rules.

 

Actually, the Mystery Disadvantage would be from multiple disads, not one large one. If someone had a 40 Mystery Disadvantage and then they gained a 10 Hunted they would now have a 30 Mystery Disadvantage left. But you're right, don't want to scare my players away! They'll nitpick anything.

 

Ohhh, I loooooove mystery disadvantages. I used to run GURPS and one player took me up on the "mystery disad" offer. One of his first opponents chopped off his left hand in a fight. I don't think Ward thought that One Hand could be a mystery disadvantage.

 

(But it was kind of nice to have the situation of a character with points in archery and only one hand. After all, no one who learns to shoot expects to have their hand chopped off, do they?)

[Starcorp Man]

We use the occasional mystery disadvantage. I don't know, I don't see 150 being that hard, most heroes in the books, comics that is, have easily that amount.

 

Example Spider Man (No specific timeline, a mixture from over the years."

 

Altruistic "With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility": 20

Code vs Killing: 15

Irrelevent Wisecracker: 10

Overconfident: 5(10)

Hunted: Default Green Goblin 8-: 10

Hunted: Default Electro 8-: 10

Hunted: King Pin and Goons 8-: 20

Watched: Daily Bugle 11-: 10

Social Limitation: Secret Identity: 15

DNPC: Incomp 8- "Aunt May, Doesn't Know Social": 20

DNPC: Normal 11-"Mary Jane": 15

Wealth: Poor: 5

Reputation: Bad Rep, Menace 11-, Extreme: 15

 

That's 170 points in about 5 minutes, without Enrages, Susceptabilities and such, he would have at least a 1d6 of unluck, Distinctive Features: Mutant DNA, maybe a distinctive feature, rivalry. In the past the ones who complained about points were the ones who didn't want a disadvantage that actually effected them, would never touch a vulnerability or susceptability, unluck or any really bothersome disadvantage. I've had a guy in the past get 100 points out of a DNPC.

[zornwil]

Personally, I've rarely seen a 150 point disad (or more) character for which the 150 really amounted to that much in real disadvantages. Usually some sort of duplications - ulnerable: Water; Fear: Water - well hell if you're Vulnerable to it of course you "fear" it, that's not irrational at all or even any more limiting than your vulnerability is, unless you're going to be a dysfunctional nut-job about it. And lots of hunteds that if you added them up mean every single game would be about at least one and probably two hunteds.

 

So I tend to keep my disads at 50 points or so and give more points to start with, or start characters at lower levels and let them grow, getting experience and "0 point" disads or simply rotating out their disads as appropriate.

 

However, as much of the population here has stated, these are just really "background" points for most people's understanding (which sounds a lot like Gary is ranting about under ECs for "point for free"). In which case how ever you want to do it should be fine, since any character should have plenty of plot points even if not explicitly taken as disads (i.e., you're basically giving them a higher base for the saem effect, you're just not spelling out the plot hooks in advance).

 

Hermit's suggestion is pretty good as well and although I've never done it that way it's eminently logical. PCs do collect a lot of disads as they are played.

[JohnOSpencer]

Personally, I have absolutly no problem coming up with 150 points in disadvantages. The best way to get disadvantages(IMHO) is to put down the disadvantages you think fit the character, then explain your concept to the GM and let him make suggestions. In my campaign we also use "Quirks" ala GURPS.

 

You want difficult, the campaign I'm currently playing in uses 250 points of disadvantages. Now that is too many!

 

John Spencer

[Phraze]

3 observations about your example list of disads, Starcorp Man, because I think it illustrates my point as well.

 

1) Your list is based on a character with 20 years of continuity. His personality and supporting cast have had years to develop. In Spider-Man #1, only the Daily Bugle and Aunt May were around, for example, and his Overconfidence was an Inferiority Complex.

 

2) Your list has three Hunteds, a Watched, and two DNPC's. Even though they're only 8's and 11's, that means that at least one of those Hunteds/Watcheds will show up almost every session, and the DNPC's at least every other session. Hope you like those characters, and that the GM has a lot of imagination to keep them from getting stale really quickly (not to mention if 3-5 players all have that many). And God forbid the GM rolls hot and hits ALL of them at once. When I GM'ed, I stopped rolling Hunteds for this very reason, preferring to work them into plotlines in advance, just using the roll numbers as a guide to how often they appeared. But I don't claim to know how all GM's run their campaigns. Extreme example: Spider-Man, Iron Man, Thor and the Hulk team up to fight the Sinister Six, when suddenly Kingpin and his goons, Electro, Mandarin, a knot of AIM agents, Loki, Absorbing Man, and the forces of Thunderbolt Base attack from all sides. And caught in the middle are Aunt May and Betsy Ross and...

 

 

30 If the campaign is new, the players may not have the kind of detailed knowledge of the campaign background to come up with 3-4 Hunteds or a Rivalry.

 

I'm not saying that 150 pts is crippling. I'm just saying that these are the kinds of concerns that players, especially players new to the system, might have. Mystery disads help, and GM handholding during the character creation process also helps, to make sure the backstory is filled in enough.

[Jeff]

My ex-wife used to plead for more disadvantages in play. The psychological limitations, Hunted's, and DNPC's she picked up were legendary.

[Starcorp Man]

Originally posted by Phraze

3 observations about your example list of disads, Starcorp Man, because I think it illustrates my point as well.

 

Ah but the GM arbitrates the use of all Disadvantages and determines if and how the hunteds are used, what happens with a DNPC, ect. If a hunted shows up for a session, you don't use him or her or it, if you don't want to, you can hold him for the next session, use the villian in the scenerio differently.

 

Also the sample was that, a 5 minute quick sample of what he could be, with 170 points worth with more to go, which people here have said is "too hard," or "don't fit the conception". Disadvantages can change over the course of a character's life and do, hell look at the FF they easily had 150 to begin with.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Phraze

3 observations about your example list of disads, Starcorp Man, because I think it illustrates my point as well.

 

1) Your list is based on a character with 20 years of continuity. His personality and supporting cast have had years to develop. In Spider-Man #1, only the Daily Bugle and Aunt May were around, for example, and his Overconfidence was an Inferiority Complex.

 

2) Your list has three Hunteds, a Watched, and two DNPC's. Even though they're only 8's and 11's, that means that at least one of those Hunteds/Watcheds will show up almost every session, and the DNPC's at least every other session. Hope you like those characters, and that the GM has a lot of imagination to keep them from getting stale really quickly (not to mention if 3-5 players all have that many). And God forbid the GM rolls hot and hits ALL of them at once. When I GM'ed, I stopped rolling Hunteds for this very reason, preferring to work them into plotlines in advance, just using the roll numbers as a guide to how often they appeared. But I don't claim to know how all GM's run their campaigns. Extreme example: Spider-Man, Iron Man, Thor and the Hulk team up to fight the Sinister Six, when suddenly Kingpin and his goons, Electro, Mandarin, a knot of AIM agents, Loki, Absorbing Man, and the forces of Thunderbolt Base attack from all sides. And caught in the middle are Aunt May and Betsy Ross and...

 

 

30 If the campaign is new, the players may not have the kind of detailed knowledge of the campaign background to come up with 3-4 Hunteds or a Rivalry.

 

I'm not saying that 150 pts is crippling. I'm just saying that these are the kinds of concerns that players, especially players new to the system, might have. Mystery disads help, and GM handholding during the character creation process also helps, to make sure the backstory is filled in enough.

 

I've seen references, I think in 5th even, to things like "just because a Hunted is rolled doesn't mean they're doing anything "visible", they may be plotting or doing something subtle" (not a direct quote). That's always seemed pretty lame to me. I don't roll up Hunteds as per the book, either, I also use the numbers as a guideline.

[Hermit]

just a thought

 

If I recall the suggestions in the rulebooks, the 'typical' 350 pt character in Champions is assumed to have a few years under his super hero belt. Therefore, Unless the GM and player want it otherwise; we're not talking about a super (or Spidey, since we're using him as an example) at his 'start' anyways

[Starcorp Man]

Alright Spiderman at start:

 

DNPC: Incomp 11- "Aunt May, Doesn't Know": 20

DNPC: Normal 8- "Gwen Stacey, Doesn't Know": 15 (or Betty Grant)

Social Limitation: Nerd: 10

Social Limitation: Secret Identity: 15

Psychological Limitation: Code vs. Killing: 15

Psychological Limitation: Altruistice, "With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility": 20

Psychological Limitation: Wisecracker: 10

Psychological Limitation: Underconfident: 5

Hunted: Daily Bugle 11- : 10

Hunted: NYPD 8-, Mild: 10 (The fact that due to the Bugle from the beginning, Spiderman was hailed as a menace and thew NYPD wanted to bring him in, the officers milage may vary)

Rivalry: Flash Thompson: 10 (Especially for Gwens affection, would Bully Parker constantly)

Unluck: 2d6: 10

Distinctive Features: Mutant DNA: 10

Money: Poor: 5

 

165, beginning of Career Spiderman, and you could add the Chameleon as a hunted, since he was the first spiderman villain he tangled with, and as Hermit states 350 characters are experienced characters.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Starcorp Man

Alright Spiderman at start:

 

DNPC: Incomp 11- "Aunt May, Doesn't Know": 20

DNPC: Normal 8- "Gwen Stacey, Doesn't Know": 15 (or Betty Grant)

Social Limitation: Nerd: 10

Social Limitation: Secret Identity: 15

Psychological Limitation: Code vs. Killing: 15

Psychological Limitation: Altruistice, "With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility": 20

Psychological Limitation: Wisecracker: 10

Psychological Limitation: Underconfident: 5

Hunted: Daily Bugle 11- : 10

Hunted: NYPD 8-, Mild: 10 (The fact that due to the Bugle from the beginning, Spiderman was hailed as a menace and thew NYPD wanted to bring him in, the officers milage may vary)

Rivalry: Flash Thompson: 10 (Especially for Gwens affection, would Bully Parker constantly)

Unluck: 2d6: 10

Distinctive Features: Mutant DNA: 10

Money: Poor: 5

 

165, beginning of Career Spiderman, and you could add the Chameleon as a hunted, since he was the first spiderman villain he tangled with, and as Hermit states 350 characters are experienced characters.

 

If you're playing "points for concept", fine, but I definitely wouldn't find that these add up in terms of the actual disdvantage to Parker/Spiderman issue-to-issue, unless you do the soft-peddle "it doesn't have to actually directly disadvantage him when it comes up".

 

But, yeah, this is HERO canon. I just don't like it.

[Starcorp Man]

Those are the disadvantages her would have for the Ditko years, up to issue 38, that's over three years of comics, and even after they really didn't change much until the mid 70's, hell Parker wasn't in College until the 80's.

 

Every disadvantage doesn't have to cripple the character at every turn, your not supposed to use every advantage every adventure. The origanl thought was 150 being too restrictive, it's not.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Starcorp Man

Those are the disadvantages her would have for the Ditko years, up to issue 38, that's over three years of comics, and even after they really didn't change much until the mid 70's, hell Parker wasn't in College until the 80's.

 

Every disadvantage doesn't have to cripple the character at every turn, your not supposed to use every advantage every adventure. The origanl thought was 150 being too restrictive, it's not.

 

Yeah, but if you go by frequencies, that's a lot in every game, too much methinks if they are supposed to "disadvantage" the player when they come up.

[Phraze]

I think one of the points I was trying to make, and not very well, is that we're talking about players creating characters for a campaign that hasn't started yet. I'm just coming back to gaming from a long absence, so I don't know how things work nowadays, but (Abe Simpsons's voice here) "in my day" characters didn't create character backgrounds in this much depth. The old Enemies books had a couple of paragraphs at most to cover origin and personalities. Some players may be a bit reticent about creating a huge supporting cast for fear of stepping on the GM's toes (the player creates a gang of neighborhood kids as DNPC's when the GM intends to make a globe-spanning campaign with the heroes in an airborne floating base). Yes, the GM has final say on the disads, but at this point, you're turning preparation for the game into a pretty long chore. Sometimes, you just want to whip up a character and go, and fill in the blanks as the campaign develops and you get a better feel for the world.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Phraze

I think one of the points I was trying to make, and not very well, is that we're talking about players creating characters for a campaign that hasn't started yet. I'm just coming back to gaming from a long absence, so I don't know how things work nowadays, but (Abe Simpsons's voice here) "in my day" characters didn't create character backgrounds in this much depth. The old Enemies books had a couple of paragraphs at most to cover origin and personalities. Some players may be a bit reticent about creating a huge supporting cast for fear of stepping on the GM's toes (the player creates a gang of neighborhood kids as DNPC's when the GM intends to make a globe-spanning campaign with the heroes in an airborne floating base). Yes, the GM has final say on the disads, but at this point, you're turning preparation for the game into a pretty long chore. Sometimes, you just want to whip up a character and go, and fill in the blanks as the campaign develops and you get a better feel for the world.

 

Good point, and I hasten to say so only because so often most people seem down on that approach these days. There's nothing wrong at all with it and as you say it has plenty of virtues - among them you don't end up retconning half the character background after the game begins.

 

Admittedly, I'm a sucker for detailed elaborate backgrounds and I give points for those, and I do like to get more than the vanilla background. But there should be a big respect for what you stated.