150 Disavantage points too restrictive?

[Guest TheAuthority]

So I've finally convinced my gaming group to play Champions Fifth Edition. We've had two 4th ed campaigns going off and on but I've wanted to play 5th since it's been out. It will also be my first time GMing Champions.

 

Anyway, this is the first time we'd actually be playing 200/150 point characters but they're bitching at me that 150 in disads is too restrictive to play. Is this the case? Or is it just that they don't want to roleplay all those points? They've suggested playing 250/100. Is this a good idea?

 

Any insight would be appreciated.

[OddHat]

Whatever works for your group. I've seen characters that end up with disadvantages that never show up in the campaign just to "fill up" their disads, an I've seen a lot of players agonizing over how to find that last 20 point disad. The question is are you as the GM going to work all of those disads into the game? If not, what's the point of requiring them?

 

You can make it easier on your players by providing a list of Hunteds, Vulnerabilities, DNPCs and Psych limits you'd like to see.

 

On the other hand, nothing major will be lost by letting them start with 50 points more or less, so long as you plan for it.

 

If any of them intentionally take meaningless disads, ask for a re-write.

[Hermit]

one option

 

While it's not the "official" way to go, I sometimes allow some of my players to fill up only, say, a hundred points of their disads at first.... then as game play goes on, we add them on as makes sense. Hunteds, for example, are often quite easy to aquire during the course of a campaign. So, for ex. if Valiant REALLY pissed off Black Palidan during last week's gaming session, why not put Hunted 8- etc etc.

[Hugh Neilson]

I don't see a problem giving the characters another 50 points if that's what you want to do (hive off some of the villain's disad's as well). Personally, I've never seen a lot of trouble covering off 150 points for most characters.

 

And you can always take only 100 points and have a 300 point character (yeah, THAT happens a lot!).

 

Most characters should be able to identify someone important to them who's not a super. Thwere's DNPC.

 

Distinctive features applies to a reasonable sub-group, and often to those for whom a DNPC is not appropriate.

 

How many heroes have no enemies? 30 points+ in Hunteds isn't tough to imagine. In our supers campaigns, virtually all characters have 2 or 3 GM-defined hunteds because you just don't know they're after you. If you want to save yourself some hassle, let the first scenario or two intrroduce a group Hunted (either before or because of the scenario events).

 

I generally find 50 points of psychological limits are easy if you have a handle on your character.

 

Social limitations (Secret ID, Public ID, etc.) are common genre staples.

 

Round it out with a few less common disadvantages applicable to the character (maybe he's gullible so takes 2x effect from Mental Illusions!) and 150 isn't that tough.

[RDU Neil]

Just think of Disadvantages as "Plot Hooks" They are there to tell stories with... useful to get the characters personally involved in a story... not necessarily to screw the character. Keep them in mind as a GM, but don't bring 'em into play unless it fits the story you are telling.

 

I also agree with allowing some points to float at the beginning... to be defined as the game goes along. Also allow Disads to change. If an original DNPC isn't interesting, but another one grows organically during the campaign... just switch 'em on the sheet.

 

Don't sweat disads. Have fun with them.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by RDU Neil

I also agree with allowing some points to float at the beginning... to be defined as the game goes along. Also allow Disads to change. If an original DNPC isn't interesting, but another one grows organically during the campaign... just switch 'em on the sheet.

 

Similarly, if the Hunted is getting stale, resolve it. The character can always make new enemies. How many long running comic characters have run out?

[Lord Liaden]

This is good advice for the GM's part of the equation, but I have to say that as a player I've never really seen Disadvantages as a drawback. To me they've always represented opportunities for me to expand a character's background, further define his abilities and personality, and leave open some cool action and roleplaying possibilities that I'd enjoy playing out. I've tried to pick Disadvantages that really connect to the character's concept, and given them as much thought as Powers and Skills.

 

Perhaps if you pitch it to your players that way and challenge them to come up with interesting Disads, they might enjoy that part of the character building process more.

 

Or they might just tell you you're full of it. Chaotic creatures, players.

[OddHat]

All characters who fail to take the full 150 points of disads will receive all remaining points in the form of compulsive behavoirs of the GM's choice. Possibilities:

 

1) Always wears underwear outside of pants, even in civillian ID.

 

2) Must try to recruit attractive teens as "sidekicks."

 

3) Insists on wearing costume under clothes at all times, regardless of weather conditions or what he or she is actually wearing.

 

4) Recites innermost thoughts in loud stage whispers.

 

5) Attributes all problems, even lost car keys or lack of exact change, to vast conspiracy lead by single meta-villain and/or Bill Clinton.

 

Your players will learn to choose their own disads.

[Guest TheAuthority]

Thanks for all the great input guys. I think the Players are so used to having 75 disads that they aren't really thinking creatively to use the 150. I'll whip 'em into shape.

[Doug McCrae]

I think 250/100 is a good idea. I've often had trouble filling those last 50 pts with disads that are right for the character. Alternatively go with Hermit's idea of adding disads, particularly Hunteds, as the campaign progresses.

[Starcorp Man]

Nope, 150 is far from restrictive. The original 250 game was 100 w/ 150 in disadvantages. A typical character is 50 points worth of Psych, Social of 15, 30 to 40 points in hunteds, that's roughly 105 there.

[Guest TheAuthority]

Ok I think I'll allow any Player to take at least 100 points in Disads with the remaining 50 to be used as Character Points. However, any of these points used for CP's will be banked Disadvantage points to be written up as a 1-50 point Mystery Disadvantage. The Mystery being whatever I or the player to decide to use it for during the course of the campaign.

 

Great suggestions everyone.

[Zed-F]

One note: I'm assuming that you mean Mystery Disadvantages, plural. It can be hard to come up with a single 50-point disadvantage.

[Jeff]

Originally posted by Zed-F

One note: I'm assuming that you mean Mystery Disadvantages, plural. It can be hard to come up with a single 50-point disadvantage.

Much less one the character doesn't know about....

[Guest TheAuthority]

Originally posted by Jeff

Much less one the character doesn't know about....

My game, my rules.

 

Actually, the Mystery Disadvantage would be from multiple disads, not one large one. If someone had a 40 Mystery Disadvantage and then they gained a 10 Hunted they would now have a 30 Mystery Disadvantage left. But you're right, don't want to scare my players away! They'll nitpick anything.

[Hermit]

Heh... I can see it now.... a single 50 pt mystery disadvantage

 

 

"Okay, roll luck/unluck"

"Sure thing," The Player grabs for three 6 siders, only to see the GM pulling out ten of his own and setting them down to use as well.

"What's this?"

"The 10d6 you'll need for your mystery disadvantage... now roll, and we'll see if you can stop the doomsday device in time..."

 

[Magmarock]

Disads are a good thing...

 

... if you can convice your Players that Disads aren't there merely to weaken their PCs.

 

Not wanting to take the full amount of Disads is like a reverse form of munchkinism. If a Player can't come up with enough acceptable Disads and also refuses to accept the GMs help in making the rest (i.e. doesn't want mystery disads either), then have the Player run a PC with fewer points. That is game balance.

 

Mags

[Phraze]

I think 150 pts. in disads seems more restricting in chargen than actual play. I agree, it's pretty easy to come up with 100-120, but then you start having to take multiple Hunteds, multiple DNPCs, random Vulnerabilities or Susceptibilities just to eke out the remaining points. And sometimes Hunteds are hard to come up with, because the player may not know the GM's universe; who would make a good Hunted? That's what mystery disads are good for. The GM might have a perfect villain or organization that the players just don't know exists yet.

 

Part of it may be a trust issue. If you have 5 characters with 2-3 Hunteds and 1-2 DNPC's each, with an average roll of 11-, that's a lot of possible complications. And if the players think that all you're going to do is roll encounters randomly and have 7-10 Hunters and DNPC's wander into every supervillain battle, then you'll have trouble getting them to commit to those extra Hunteds. Mystery disads can help here, too, by making the players feel as if they don't have as much weight on their shoulders until they trust you to handle it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Mystery Hunteds are commonplace in our games - in fact, I can't remember the last time someone DID select their own Hunted.

 

Other mystery disad's are a bit tougher (how do you not KNOW about a physical limitation, for example, and if I don't know that little old lady is kindly old Aunt June, she's hardly my DNPC).

 

A lot of the comments are rock solid in their point that a lot of this comes down to trust in the GM. The bottom line there, however, is that I may as qell quit the game right now if I don't trust the GM. No matter how powerful my character, or what disadvantages I have, it's not hard for the GM to make my character useless if that's what he wants to do. After all, only one of us has unlimited points.

 

The catch is, a GM who can't be trusted runs a pretty lousy game, so he won't be a GM for long.

[Syberdwarf2]

Originally posted by Phraze

I think 150 pts. in disads seems more restricting in chargen than actual play. I agree, it's pretty easy to come up with 100-120, but then you start having to take multiple Hunteds, multiple DNPCs, random Vulnerabilities or Susceptibilities just to eke out the remaining points. And sometimes Hunteds are hard to come up with, because the player may not know the GM's universe; who would make a good Hunted? That's what mystery disads are good for. The GM might have a perfect villain or organization that the players just don't know exists yet.

 

In my game, on of my PCs was having the same problem in coming up with disads. He had, as a Hunted, "The gang of criminals that killed his family". Of course, my player left the name of the group unspecified, prefering me to fill in the blank with something that I deemed apprpriate to help it gel with my setting.

 

Also, Odd Hat had suggested that the GM make a list of disads that he'd like to see or that would be acceptable. While this is a lot more work on the GMs part, it's a great time saver in the long run, like pre-rolling damage. The Global Guardians PBEM webiste has a huge list of disads from which to draw inspiration.

[Mentor]

Originally posted by Phraze

I think 150 pts. in disads seems more restricting in chargen than actual play. I agree, it's pretty easy to come up with 100-120, but then you start having to take multiple Hunteds, multiple DNPCs, random Vulnerabilities or Susceptibilities just to eke out the remaining points. And sometimes Hunteds are hard to come up with, because the player may not know the GM's universe; who would make a good Hunted? That's what mystery disads are good for. The GM might have a perfect villain or organization that the players just don't know exists yet.

 

Part of it may be a trust issue. If you have 5 characters with 2-3 Hunteds and 1-2 DNPC's each, with an average roll of 11-, that's a lot of possible complications. And if the players think that all you're going to do is roll encounters randomly and have 7-10 Hunters and DNPC's wander into every supervillain battle, then you'll have trouble getting them to commit to those extra Hunteds. Mystery disads can help here, too, by making the players feel as if they don't have as much weight on their shoulders until they trust you to handle it.

I think you hit it on the nail, Phraze. The players need to develop trust that the GM will use disads to enhance their enjoyment of the game. When a PC whups up on the Hunted who singles him or her out, the player knows that his character matters. Likewise, players need to use disads that make their PC three dimensional and real, not a cripple or campaign stopper. Most of our campaigns' Psych Lims and such never have to be called in by the GM as the players run their Superheroes with those personality characteristics "on" all the time.

[Theron]

Points are for sissies

[Adventus]

Theron, I read your article. This sounds like the way I have been running my campaign for years.One of the characters has gone thru at least 6 suits of power armor each more powerful than the last. One is combined with the head of a Mark VII Minuteman robot now. A potential oppenent for the game. Another found out how her Mech works. The players have been having fun playing in this campaign.

I am changing the campaign right now for more info see my topic closing the rift

[Theron]

Originally posted by Adventus

The players have been having fun playing in this campaign.

 

And ultimately, that's all that matters. We've just begun year four of our campaign, have saved the world twice, foiled the most powerful man in Fair City's plot to eliminate all superhumans from the planet, fought our evil duplicates on Counter-Earth, lost one player, added two more, and had a near-100% changeover in characters.

 

And the GM still hasn't issued a single Experience Point.

[Arthur]

When I first read the title of the thread, I thought you wanted to INCREASE the Disad point total to 200 or something. My reaction was "Huh? I have a hard time coming up with 150! If anything, you should go the OTHER way and have LESS Disad points!"

 

Obviously, that was what you meant, and I think it is a great idea. 150 points in Disads tends to lead toward taking Disads just for the points, not because it is really in character. Come on - we've all done it: "Let's see - either another Hunted or I have to lose the Omnigun...."

 

I'd go to 100 + 100 tops for my trademark "realistic supers" style, and 250 + 100 for a more standard Champions game.