4th-6th VPP Question

[Ice9]

Re: 4th-6th VPP Question

 

Oh, I agree that Cosmic is appropriate - I just think that the limitation value, in this case, should be higher than -1/4, because of the fact that Cosmic is being used.

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: 4th-6th VPP Question

 

Personally I'm not so sure that being able to instantaneously change powers as a zero phase action fits having to drop or put away one gadget in order to pull out and activate another one. Cosmic might be an appropriate Advantage for a single device that can switch to any power with a mental command (like the Engineer's liquid metal nanotech or a Green Lantern Ring), but what we're talking about sounds more to me like Powers Can Be Changed As A Half-Phase Action (+1/2), No Skill Roll Required (+1).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: 4th-6th VPP Question

 

also see this other old thread:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72586&highlight=utility+belt

[Chimera 12]

Re: 4th-6th VPP Question

 

Personally I'm not so sure that being able to instantaneously change powers as a zero phase action fits having to drop or put away one gadget in order to pull out and activate another one. Cosmic might be an appropriate Advantage for a single device that can switch to any power with a mental command (like the Engineer's liquid metal nanotech or a Green Lantern Ring)' date=' but what we're talking about sounds more to me like Powers Can Be Changed As A Half-Phase Action (+1/2), No Skill Roll Required (+1).[/quote']

 

Well, you can do that, sure. Of course, then that half phase will apply every time you change powers, whether they're conceptually part of the same device or not. (The rules don't really provide for Power Pools with "some powers can be switched faster than others", and while I'm sure that sort of thing could be modelled, I don't think I could do it without somehow making an unholy mess of things, at least -- the main issue being not so much the precise Advantage or Limitation as how to quickly and cleanly decide which specific power is which.) Remember, the original question was about putting a Multipower into a VPP. If you do want full 'Multipower' functionality -- without allowing actual Multipowers to be put into a Pool, mind --, then Cosmic is the only way to go. If not, well...that's fine, too, I suppose.

[casualplayer]

Re: 4th-6th VPP Question

 

Well' date=' you can do that, sure. Of course, then that half phase will apply [i']every[/i] time you change powers, whether they're conceptually part of the same device or not. (The rules don't really provide for Power Pools with "some powers can be switched faster than others", and while I'm sure that sort of thing could be modelled, I don't think I could do it without somehow making an unholy mess of things, at least -- the main issue being not so much the precise Advantage or Limitation as how to quickly and cleanly decide which specific power is which.) Remember, the original question was about putting a Multipower into a VPP. If you do want full 'Multipower' functionality -- without allowing actual Multipowers to be put into a Pool, mind --, then Cosmic is the only way to go. If not, well...that's fine, too, I suppose.

 

Aside from grinding the game to a screeching halt if the points are allocated on the fly, what's the big deal about allowing MPs to be purchased using VPPs? Since the OP said he would be shopping Gadgets & Gears for the most part, what does it matter if he half-phase whips up a 70 pt MP gun with 5 fixed slots accounting for 105 points of his Pool and can now shift functionality within the MP without necessarily incurring a half-phase investment?

 

This is being asked to the whole thread, not just you Chimera12.

[Chimera 12]

Re: 4th-6th VPP Question

 

Aside from grinding the game to a screeching halt if the points are allocated on the fly, what's the big deal about allowing MPs to be purchased using VPPs? Since the OP said he would be shopping Gadgets & Gears for the most part, what does it matter if he half-phase whips up a 70 pt MP gun with 5 fixed slots accounting for 105 points of his Pool and can now shift functionality within the MP without necessarily incurring a half-phase investment?

 

This is being asked to the whole thread, not just you Chimera12.

 

I'm still trying to puzzle this out for myself, to be honest, and I had a somewhat lengthy post mulling it over already written up...but in the process, it occurred to me that it may simply come down to this:

 

The reason you get a cost break on a Multipower at all is that it's supposed to be a limitation. You get a bunch of powers cheaper than you normally would because you can't use them all at once at full strength.

 

However, a VPP is already limited in a similar fashion. You get cheap access to a potentially infinite number of powers because, again, you can't use them all at once at full strength.

 

So if you put a Multipower into a VPP? You're basically trying to make any given hypothetical power in your framework even cheaper...by claiming two separate cost breaks for what's essentially the same limitation on it. And that's a no-go.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 4th-6th VPP Question

 

Oh' date=' I agree that Cosmic is appropriate - I just think that the limitation value, in this case, should be higher than -1/4, because of the fact that Cosmic [i']is[/i] being used.

 

I think that the answer is to limit the Cosmic advantage itself separately from the control cost. The control cost might still have the -1/2 limitation that the power suite can only be changed in a lab, with Cosmic being a naked advantage which is more highly limited because "zero phase and no skill roll" is reduced more significantly in value by the fact that this switch can be made only between a limited selection of powers.

 

A pure Cosmic VPP is a multipower with unlimited slots. A 60 point VPP carries a control cost of 90 to achieve this result, so the control cost must be worth more than 20 ("Only change in a lab") and less than 90 (pure cosmic). So we have the pure control cost, which is 20, and the "0 phase, no skill roll" advantages which have a base cost of 60, limited by the fact that this only allows a switch between pre-defined "multipower" powers. How limiting that is will depend on the scope of the character's ability to select multipowers within the pool while at the lab. Depending on your definitions, it could also be more limiting. If you make himpay pool and slot costs for the multipower, it's considerably more limited. A 60 point cosmic VPP could normally have a choice of unlimited 60 AP slots, but if this character wants 5 Ultra slots he can switch between, they can only be 40 AP each, since the Multipower he's putting in the VPP will now cost 60.

 

My gut feel says -1, for a total cost of 60 (pool) + 20 (control) + 30 (Cosmic advantages, limited) = 110, and he doesn't have to pay a slot cost. However, it would be one of those abilities one really needs to see in play to properly evaluate, and the value could vary significantly between characters, depending on the gadgets they are considered to have access to. At one extreme, if Gadget Guy can pick up a GL Power Ring back at the lab, he's not really limited at all, since that one gadget can access a pretty much unlimited number of powers.

 

Aside from grinding the game to a screeching halt if the points are allocated on the fly' date=' what's the big deal about allowing MPs to be purchased using VPPs? Since the OP said he would be shopping Gadgets & Gears for the most part, what does it matter if he half-phase whips up a 70 pt MP gun with 5 fixed slots accounting for 105 points of his Pool and can now shift functionality within the MP without necessarily incurring a half-phase investment?[/quote']

 

Let's assume the pool itself is 105 points. It matters because a character with a standard VPP requiring a half phase to change could not swap to a different 70 AP attack without a half phase cost (or a return to the lab, depending on the specific VPP in question). He is gaining an advantage, so his VPP should cost more than a VPP lacking such an advantage.

 

The reason you get a cost break on a Multipower at all is that it's supposed to be a limitation. You get a bunch of powers cheaper than you normally would because you can't use them all at once at full strength.

 

However, a VPP is already limited in a similar fashion. You get cheap access to a potentially infinite number of powers because, again, you can't use them all at once at full strength.

 

I agree - it feels like double dipping. I also have no problem with a character getting increasingly versatile over time eventually changing his Multipower to a Cosmic VPP simply because the number of slots makes this the more efficient construct. He should not be required to pay more for the same versatility just because he started with a different mechanic.

[Lucius]

Re: 4th-6th VPP Question

 

I think that the answer is to limit the Cosmic advantage itself separately from the control cost.

 

I came back to this thread to comment specifically because I had thought of this, and I find you've beaten me to it.

 

But now we're probably going to have to explain "Naked Advantage" to the original poster....

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says not to worry, it's not dirty

[Chimera 12]

Re: 4th-6th VPP Question

 

I also have no problem with a character getting increasingly versatile over time eventually changing his Multipower to a Cosmic VPP simply because the number of slots makes this the more efficient construct. He should not be required to pay more for the same versatility just because he started with a different mechanic.

True. As you said yourself earlier in your post, a Cosmic VPP can be considered basically a Multipower with unlimited slots. (A less-than-Cosmic VPP can still be read as a Multipower that trades off ease of switching powers for unlimited slots, for that matter.) Thus, that kind of evolution feels natural enough that I'd have no trouble allowing it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 4th-6th VPP Question

 

I recently built a character that was to have a rather large choice of Multipower slots. After reviewing the result, and comparing costs, he became a character with a Cosmic VPP, limited to only certain types of powers, with all powers written up in advance. The result is effectively the same as a huge multipower, except that adding slots costs nothing.

 

The character in question was designed a bit differently after that change to incorporate non-attack powers in the VPP, which provides a tradeoff for limited powers to make other abilities available at the same time. As well, his pool is much larger than any single power's maximum AP. It does make XP spending a bit dulll, in that the immediate temptation is to bump either the pool or the control cost (to enhance maximum AP).

[taenia]

Re: 4th-6th VPP Question

 

Could you just buy both powers in the VPP but add the -1/2 to -1 limitation, lockout, to each power. Lets assume you have a 60 pt pool and buy a 12d6 EB laser pistol, OAF (60, down to 30) and a Flashlight Images, laser pistol OAF (30 down to 15) Now if you bought it as a MP it would be 60 (OAF) and 2 slots for 3 and 1 point or a total of 34 pts. If you use lockout (-1/2) cant use with images than its 24 for the laser and 12 for the flashlight so thats 36 points, which is close. Granted the more additional powers in the MP you have it quickly becomes too expensive but for a small number of options it could work. You GM could be generous with the lockout and also include the fact thats its one focus and not 2 so if you lose one you lost both, in which case the limitation might go up.